You are changing the subject because you lost the debate. We were talking about civil liberties, not foreign policy.Originally Posted by silverhandorder
As for foreign policy, Trump supported the invasions of Iraq and Libya.
And he wants boots on the ground against ISIS.
When Trump opposes and repeals the Patriot Act, I might have hope.Trump is no (individual) liberty lover but he does have all the right enemies. Remember, Individualism > Localism > Nationalism > Globalism. I'll take a nationalist who opposes nation building, the War in Iraq, NATO, WTO, the World Bank, IMF, NAFTA, TPP, wants to negotiate with Russia, etc. over a globalist hack like Hillary, any day. A restoration of national sovereignty is one step closer to individual sovereignty and please remember, both Rothbard and Ron agree that a foreign policy of peace is the most consequential method of shrinking the state and restoring liberty.
In regards to the "Police Worship" from Trump last night (which was by far the worst part of his speech), my only hope, and this is by no means clear or guaranteed, is that Trump is doing to the police what he has done to the military. Trumps says something to the effect of "I love the military, so f*** the Iraq War and let's focus on protecting America". Which is clearly why the Neocons can't stand him (YAY!!!). Maybe, just maybe, with the LEOs Trump is angling to a position like "I love the cops, so f*** the drug war and focus on policing violent crime". I might be completely wrong but at least their is a chance and that's all I can ask for at this point.
Even if I'm completely wrong and he is straight authoritarian, he will never be Hitler without gun confiscation (which he could never pull off). I'd rather have my AR's ready for the Fed induced Crack-Up Boom than Kankles and her gun-control free-s*** army any day.
On a positive note, I'm fully celebrating July 21st, 2016 as the death of the Bush Doctrine and Neoconservativism. This is a great day to be alive guys! I thought these slimy pricks would be in power for much, much longer. Cheers!
In the meantime wanting Snowden executed doesn't give me a lot to look forward to.
ANDEdward Snowden, the man at the heart of the NSA information leaks, is nothing but a “traitor” — and America ought to recreate history in dealing with him, real estate mogul Donald Trump said on a “Fox & Friends” interview.
In other words, execute him, Mr. Trump implied.
“I think Snowden is a terrible threat, I think he’s a terrible traitor, and you know what we used to do in the good old days when we were a strong country — you know what we used to do to traitors, right?” Trump said, Politico reported.
“Well, you killed them, Donald,” said fill-in host, Eric Bolling.
Mr. Trump’s response: Well, he is damaging America.
“This guy is really doing damage to this country, and he’s also making us look like dopes,” he said, Politico reported. “We can’t allow this guy to go out there and give out all our secrets and also embarrass us at every level. We should get him back and get him back now.”
Trump, who is campaigning to become the Republican party presidential nominee, gave his opinion on Snowden during the 11th candidate’s debate on Thursday night.
“When you just asked the question about Snowden, I will tell you right from the beginning, I said he was a spy and we should get him back,” Trump said. “And if Russia respected our country, they would have sent him back immediately, but he was a spy. It didn't take me a long time to figure that one out.”
Last edited by Ender; 07-22-2016 at 04:12 PM.
There is no spoon.
Civil Liberties and War go hand-in-hand. You cannot separate the two. If Trump stopped the wars (and nation-building) the threat of terrorism would end and the people would demand an end to the police state (which we already have btw).
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams
Indeed
And he praised Hillary's performance as Sec. of State.
...which there is no reason to believe he would do, since he supported all of them.
Apparently he disagrees, since he wants to maintain and expand the existing police-state.the threat of terrorism would end and the people would demand an end to the police state (which we already have btw).
Many of the Trump supporters want Muslims out of the US; they are afraid of terrorism, but that won't solve their fears because they are also afraid of Sharia law being implemented in places with high Muslim populations.
“I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul
No I don't believe for a second that McCain or anyone else in the establishment or democrats actually stand for anything. So if they publicly talked against torture like McCain that does not change the fact that they are pretty close in view to Trump privately.
My evidence for that is simply how they always change positions to fit the electorate. Trust me if the electorate was where Ron Paul is people like McCain would still get elected.
Watch if Trump wins a lot of politicians on both sides will start sounding similar to Trump. They are misreading people badly now and got too arrogant. But once the smack down comes they will adopt.
That's nice speculation, but the evidence is that Trump is pro-torture and McCain is not.
Anyway, the fact that you're reduced to arguing that Trump is only as bad as McCain on civil liberties speaks volumes.
In 2003 I supported the Iraq War as well (I was in High School but I was swept away with war fever so I understand). What Trump has done is legitimize non-intervention in the mind of the voters of GWB (by destroying him and his brother on National TV). Today I can talk to any Republican and advocate for non-intervention because of Trump. Before Trump it was like talking to a brink wall. In regards to the Police State, they never work out when you have an armed population. As long as we bear arms, we always have a way. Just my 2 cents.
Last edited by Gumba of Liberty; 07-22-2016 at 04:27 PM.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams
They are afraid because of the constant shootings and attacks they see on TV. End nation-building and the attacks will subside.
In regards to Sharia Law, this is a great teaching moment for Trump Supporter's. It is our job to explain the three choice that lie before us: Statutory Law (Law by our Criminal Congress), Sharia Law (and other Religious Law), and Natural Law (Codified by the Bill of Rights). Break it down nice and simple.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams
I never pretended Trump is the second coming of Ron Paul. The man is good only in the way that he is actually competent and he wants to put america first. He is not different from the current paradigm and thinks like Reps/Dems.
I gave up on politics until he came along, after RP got shut out in 2008.
That wasn't because of Trump, that was because of Ron Paul.
“I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul
No doubt that Ron influenced Trump but Ron did not get through to supporter's of GWB. I know because i got in major debates from 2008-Summer 2015 with Neo-Con crazies. What's changed since then? Donald J. Trump attacked Bush and the wars.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams
A. What evidence is there that he's competent? He clearly knows very little about the issues. His only apparent skill is as an entertainer.
B. Competent to do what? The neocons are quite competent, and they use that competence to advance their atrocious anti-liberty agenda.
By continuing the police state, the wars, QE, doing another bailout/stimulus during the next recession, pushing socialized medicine...and he wants to put america first
That's right, he's a continuation of the status quo.He is not different from the current paradigm and thinks like Reps/Dems.
Ron didn't influence Trump at all.
He did influence a large faction of the GOP rank-and-file, which Trump is cynically trying to capture with fake non-interventionist rhetoric.
...which directly contradicts his own record of support for the worst interventionist policies and officials.
Sorry, I going to have to disagree. Straight from the horses mouth: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...11126889852928
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams
I think this is your problem you can't tell what competence is.
He waged into a primary with 16 opponents and demolished everyone. He built a very prestigious multi billion dollar brand. His convention was a beauty to behold compared to previous ones. I bet you democrats will not even come close to his. They generally fail compared to republicans at organizing conventions anyways.
His agenda is all about liberty. He wants to do something before SHTF. Everyone else gave up and is just waiting for STHTF.B. Competent to do what? The neocons are quite competent, and they use that competence to advance their atrocious anti-liberty agenda.
By continuing the police state, the wars, QE, doing another bailout/stimulus during the next recession, pushing socialized medicine...
He gave indications that he will not go on confrontation course with Russia and China.
He wants to force US to start producing again.
YEes he wants to continue to take care of elderly and provide a social safety net. Sorry can't have everything.That's right, he's a continuation of the status quo.
I realized very early on that a large percentage of Trump's support was coming from former supporters of Ron Paul.
What made it so evident was the inability of media propaganda to shake Trump's support loose.
People will argue against that by saying that Trump isn't a libertarian,..and that's true.
What else is true is that most of Ron Paul's support wasn't libertarians either.
That's funny, since Trump called Ron a "clown" a few months later, and did his best to perpetuate the self-fulling prophecy that Ron couldn't win.
Could it be that Trump just panders to whatever audience he's addressing at the moment?
In any event, Ron certainly does NOT view Trump as any kind of ally or fellow traveler.
Yes, as I said, he's a skilled entertainer.
That has nothing to do with how he would govern (unless you think governing consists in putting on a show for the media).
Bailouts are all about liberty?His agenda is all about liberty.
QE is all about liberty?
Keynesian stimiulus is all about liberty?
Socialized medicine is all about liberty?
The Iraq War was all about liberty?
The Libya War was all about history?
The PATRIOT Act is all about liberty?
Executing Snowden is all about liberty?
= projecting your own values onto TrumpHe wants to do something before SHTF. Everyone else gave up and is just waiting for STHTF.
....except for igniting the greatest trade war since the 1930s.He gave indications that he will not go on confrontation course with Russia and China.
No, he will continue all of the horrible anti-market economic policies of the past decades, throwing in a big import tax to boot.He wants to force US to start producing again.
Right, he has pledged not to reform social security or medicare, which will bankrupt the country if left unchanged.YEes he wants to continue to take care of elderly and provide a social safety net. Sorry can't have everything.
And then there's this:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...20332471357440
There is no spoon.
That's right.
Most were just contrarians. They liked Ron because they saw him as an outsider (which he really was).
Now they like Trump because they see him as an outsider (which he patently isn't).
The contrarians are those who still refuse to accept the fact that the only way to keep Bush 45 (Hillary) out of office is to elect Trump.
The contrarians are those who are too thick to appreciate that there is no difference between Hillary and Trump.
The leftist media propaganda machine seems to think there is. They've been working non-stop for a year to undermine Trump's campaign.
And in 2012 the leftist media attacked Romney, and in 2008 McCain, and in 2004 Bush....
Guess they were big reformers/outsiders too, huh?
In 2008 & 2012 it attacked Ron Paul. You weren't here to see it, obviously.
2014 is getting to the party *very* late.
By the way,..some of us understand the significance of your avatar.
http://www.sobran.com/hive/hive.shtml
What are you talking about? Is that supposed to rebut something I said?
My point (which was quite clear) was that the leftist media attacking a candidate does not make that candidate an outsider.
...otherwise Romney, McCain, and Bush were outsiders, which is absurd.
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