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Thread: Secede! The right of self-determination applies to any size unit, the village, the family, eve

  1. #1

    Secede! The right of self-determination applies to any size unit, the village, the family, eve


    Secede!

    The right of self-determination applies to any size unit, the village, the family, even the individual.

    The Right of Self-Determination


    By Ludwig von Mises


    Mises.org


    July 22, 2016


    It has already been pointed out that a country can enjoy domestic peace only when a democratic constitution provides the guarantee that the adjustment of the government to the will of the citizens can take place without friction. Nothing else is required than the consistent application of the same principle in order to assure international peace as well.

    The liberals of an earlier age thought that the peoples of the world were peaceable by nature and that only monarchs desire war in order to increase their power and wealth by the conquest of provinces. They believed, therefore, that to assure lasting peace it was sufficient to replace the rule of dynastic princes by governments dependent on the people. If a democratic republic finds that its existing boundaries, as shaped by the course of history before the transition to liberalism, no longer correspond to the political wishes of the people, they must be peacefully changed to conform to the results of a plebiscite expressing the people’s will. It must always be possible to shift the boundaries of the state if the will of the inhabitants of an area to attach themselves to a state other than the one to which they presently belong has made itself clearly known, In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the Russian Czars incorporated into their empire large areas whose population had never felt the desire to belong to the Russian state. Even if the Russian Empire had adopted a completely democratic constitution, the wishes of the inhabitants of these territories would not have been satisfied, because they simply did not desire to associate themselves in any bond of political union with the Russians. Their democratic demand was: freedom from the Russian Empire; the formation of an independent Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. The fact that these demands and similar ones on the part of other peoples (e.g., the Italians, the Germans in Schleswig-Holstein, the Slavs in the Hapsburg Empire) could be satisfied only by recourse to arms was the most important cause of all the wars that have been fought in Europe since the Congress of Vienna.

    The right of self-determination in regard to the question of membership in a state thus means: whenever the inhabitants of a particular territory, whether it be a single village, a whole district, or a series of adjacent districts, make it known, by a freely conducted plebiscite, that they no longer wish to remain united to the state to which they belong at the time, but wish either to form an independent state or to attach themselves to some other state, their wishes are to be respected and complied with. This is the only feasible and effective way of preventing revolutions and civil and international wars.

    To call this right of self-determination the “right of self-determination of nations” is to misunderstand it. It is not the right of self-determination of a delimited national unit, but the right of the inhabitants of every territory to decide on the state to which they wish to belong. This misunderstanding is even more grievous when the expression “self-determination of nations” is taken to mean that a national state has the right to detach and incorporate into itself against the will of the inhabitants parts of the nation that belong to the territory of another state. It is in terms of the right of self-determination of nations understood in this sense that the Italian Fascists seek to justify their demand that the canton Tessin and parts of other cantons be detached from Switzerland and united to Italy, even though the inhabitants of these cantons have no such desire. A similar position is taken by some of the advocates of Pan-Germanism in regard to German Switzerland and the Netherlands.

    However, the right of self-determination of which we speak is not the right of self-determination of nations, but rather the right of self-determination of the inhabitants of every territory large enough to form an independent administrative unit. If it were in any way possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, it would have to be done. This is impracticable only because of compelling technical considerations, which make it necessary that a region be governed as a single administrative unit and that the right of self-determination be restricted to the will of the majority of the inhabitants of areas large enough to count as territorial units in the administration of the country.

    So far as the right of self-determination was given effect at all, and wherever it would have been permitted to take effect, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, it led or would have led to the formation of states composed of a single nationality (i.e., people speaking the same language) and to the dissolution of states composed of several nationalities, but only as a consequence of the free choice of those entitled to participate in the plebiscite. The formation of states comprising all the members of a national group was the result of the exercise of the right of self-determination, not its purpose. If some members of a nation feel happier politically independent than as a part of a state composed of all the members of the same linguistic group, one may, of course, attempt to change their political ideas by persuasion in order to win them over to the principle of nationality, according to which all members of the same linguistic group should form a single, independent state. If, however, one seeks to determine their political fate against their will by appealing to an alleged higher right of the nation, one violates the right of self-determination no less effectively than by practicing any other form of oppression. A partition of Switzerland among Germany, France, and Italy, even if it were performed exactly according to linguistic boundaries, would be just as gross a violation of the right of self-determination as was the partition of Poland.

    Note: The views expressed on Mises.org are not necessarily those of the Mises Institute.

    Ludwig von Mises was the acknowledged leader of the Austrian School of economic thought, a prodigious originator in economic theory, and a prolific author. Mises's writings and lectures encompassed economic theory, history, epistemology, government, and political philosophy. His contributions to economic theory include important clarifications on the quantity theory of money, the theory of the trade cycle, the integration of monetary theory with economic theory in general, and a demonstration that socialism must fail because it cannot solve the problem of economic calculation. Mises was the first scholar to recognize that economics is part of a larger science in human action, a science that he called "praxeology."


    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/07/ludwig-von-mises/secede-7/

    Copyright © 2016 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit and a live link are provided.




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  3. #2

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Murray N. Rothbard
    It is all the more curious, incidentally, that while laissez-faireists should by the logic of their position, be ardent believers in a single, unified world government, so that no one will live in a state of 'anarchy' in relation to anyone else, they almost never are.

    And once one concedes that a single world government is not necessary, then where does one logically stop at the permissibility of separate states? If Canada and the United States can be separate nations without being denounced as being in a state of impermissible 'anarchy,' why may not the South secede from the United States? New York State from the Union? New York City from the state? Why may not Manhattan secede? Each neighborhood? Each block? Each house? Each person? But, of course, if each person may secede from government, we have virtually arrived at the purely free society, where defense is supplied along with all other services by the free market and where the invasive State has ceased to exist.
    http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rothb...thbard146.html

  5. #4
    This is just a nicer way to describe Anarchism. No democratic state would exist for long if anytime a group loses in the political arena, they can just up and leave, no consequences, and they do what they want anyway.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 01/15/24
    Trump will win every single state primary by double digits.
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  6. #5
    Sorry, you have lost control of the central bank. No secession for you. Thanks for playing.

  7. #6
    I really can get by without a central bank.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I really can get by without a central bank.
    You can't. You will not be able to trade with anybody.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    No democratic state would exist for long if anytime a group loses in the political arena, they can just up and leave, no consequences, and they do what they want anyway.
    And that would be a bad thing ... why, exactly?

    Why should Floridians be allowed to have any say over what Idahoans do or don't do (or how they do or don't do it)?
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I really can get by without a central bank.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    You can't. You will not be able to trade with anybody.
    Wampum FTW

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    This is just a nicer way to describe Anarchism. No democratic state would exist for long if anytime a group loses in the political arena, they can just up and leave, no consequences, and they do what they want anyway.
    So, therefore .........?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Sorry, you have lost control of the central bank. No secession for you. Thanks for playing.
    When did the Rothschilds ever allow us to have control, since 1913?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    You can't. You will not be able to trade with anybody.
    Folks have been trading for multi thousands of years. Did I just miss your point?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    So, therefore .........?
    So therefore what Von Mises is describing doesn't work, and has never worked in all of history. The article title is flat out wrong as well, he describes individual self determination as impractical. He is also relying on tyranny of the majority to determine when an administrative unit can invoke secession.

    If it were in any way possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, it would have to be done. This is impracticable only because of compelling technical considerations, which make it necessary that a region be governed as a single administrative unit and that the right of self-determination be restricted to the will of the majority of the inhabitants of areas large enough to count as territorial units in the administration of the country.
    So you have a territory and 50.1% overrules 49.9% to secede. Von Mises contradicts himself. What happened to the self determination of the 49.9%? He says it is invalid unless the minority can somehow re-arrange themselves into an administrative territory of their own, in order to secure their own self determination.

    The effect he is advocating is to divide people up, move populations around whenever disagreements arise because you don't have self determination unless you are in the majority. And he is saying this should all be done peacefully???

    This is incredibly flawed theoretical, philosophical thinking IMHO.
    Last edited by spudea; 07-23-2016 at 11:10 AM.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 01/15/24
    Trump will win every single state primary by double digits.
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  16. #14
    I guess my main disagreement is the peaceful part. "their wishes are to be respected and complied with."

    I view this as impractical and unworkable. What about the wishes of the minority? Or should the minority always submit to the majority in order to keep the peace?

    Self determination is possible if you are willing to fight, but to expect peaceful respect and compliance is naive if the decision is predicated on tyranny of the majority.
    Last edited by spudea; 07-23-2016 at 10:14 AM.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 01/15/24
    Trump will win every single state primary by double digits.
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  17. #15
    What's the objection to individual secession? For those who do object, please describe the logical basis for the authority you claim to impose the force necessary to prevent people from refusing to acknowledge your boundaries.

    Answer this question in a logically consistent manner - which basically means you must disprove the existence of the individual as distinct and unique unto himself - and I will abandon my advocacy of statelessness.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    What's the objection to individual secession?

    Works for me for the last 4 decades.

    For those who do object, please describe the logical basis for the authority you claim to impose the force necessary to prevent people from refusing to acknowledge your boundaries.

    Did I claim to impose force? Sorry, I got a little lost in that sentence there. If I understand correctly, I plan to do or not do whatever, based a variety of factors, decided on a case by case basis. They'll, at least, get the hints.


    Is that a logical enough basis for you?

    Answer this question in a logically consistent manner - which basically means you must disprove the existence of the individual as distinct and unique unto himself - and I will abandon my advocacy of statelessness.

    What?

    //



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  20. #17
    Yeah, I don't think you understood correctly. As an anti-statist, my question is to those who oppose the right of individual self-determination. I want to know how they justify the authority to forcefully insist that individuals respect their arbitrary borders.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Yeah, I don't think you understood correctly. As an anti-statist, my question is to those who oppose the right of individual self-determination. I want to know how they justify the authority to forcefully insist that individuals respect their arbitrary borders.
    This Land is Mine - YouTube

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    What's the objection to individual secession? For those who do object, please describe the logical basis for the authority you claim to impose the force necessary to prevent people from refusing to acknowledge your boundaries.

    Answer this question in a logically consistent manner - which basically means you must disprove the existence of the individual as distinct and unique unto himself - and I will abandon my advocacy of statelessness.
    Just taking a crack at this as I am sorting through stuff in my head as well. You have a God given right to secede from all unjust force... but I find no basis for the right to secede from just force. Justice is not unique to the individual it is applicable to all regardless of their geographical location. Therefore, just because someone says 'I have seceded from justice, justice does not apply within my borders' does not make it so. And so the application of justice need not respect these artificial boundaries, the artificial boundaries which are the construct of the individual secessionist.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    So therefore what Von Mises is describing doesn't work, and has never worked in all of history. The article title is flat out wrong as well, he describes individual self determination as impractical. He is also relying on tyranny of the majority to determine when an administrative unit can invoke secession.



    So you have a territory and 50.1% overrules 49.9% to secede. Von Mises contradicts himself. What happened to the self determination of the 49.9%? He says it is invalid unless the minority can somehow re-arrange themselves into an administrative territory of their own, in order to secure their own self determination.

    The effect he is advocating is to divide people up, move populations around whenever disagreements arise because you don't have self determination unless you are in the majority. And he is saying this should all be done peacefully???

    This is incredibly flawed theoretical, philosophical thinking IMHO.
    What's wrong with "dividing people up"? They already do it. Good fences make good neighbors. You not stealing from me vicariously through your regime makes you an even better neighbor, AFAIC. ~hugs~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Just taking a crack at this as I am sorting through stuff in my head as well. You have a God given right to secede from all unjust force... but I find no basis for the right to secede from just force. Justice is not unique to the individual it is applicable to all regardless of their geographical location. Therefore, just because someone says 'I have seceded from justice, justice does not apply within my borders' does not make it so. And so the application of justice need not respect these artificial boundaries, the artificial boundaries which are the construct of the individual secessionist.
    I don't see anyone opposing real justice. I do see YOUR government NOT providing it, though. If your gov'ment can deal with injun tribes(like the Navajo nation) as non-regime property, no reason it can't deal with regular folks not recognizing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    I don't see anyone opposing real justice. I do see YOUR government NOT providing it, though. If your gov'ment can deal with injun tribes(like the Navajo nation) as non-regime property, no reason it can't deal with regular folks not recognizing it.
    I do agree this government applies unjust force, therefore:

    You have a God given right to secede from all unjust force

  26. #23
    We kind of had this for a long time in U.S. History. That's what the west and frontier culture were. Going west was an individual act of secession into what was a largely anarchic society in the old west.

    Of course, that only works when there is a vast expanse of unclaimed land. (Please no "but what about the Indians?") replies.

    We might see this again if and when we reach the age of safe, economical space exploration

  27. #24
    Just don't be surprised when you get Lincoln'd
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Just don't be surprised when you get Lincoln'd
    Pretty much. Republicans only republican when it's convenient for them. The other times they fascist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Just taking a crack at this as I am sorting through stuff in my head as well. You have a God given right to secede from all unjust force... but I find no basis for the right to secede from just force. Justice is not unique to the individual it is applicable to all regardless of their geographical location. Therefore, just because someone says 'I have seceded from justice, justice does not apply within my borders' does not make it so. And so the application of justice need not respect these artificial boundaries, the artificial boundaries which are the construct of the individual secessionist.
    It's all in how you're defining "just force", of course.

    I've always appreciated the succinct simplicity of this video as a sort of primer on the topic:


  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Just taking a crack at this as I am sorting through stuff in my head as well. You have a God given right to secede from all unjust force... but I find no basis for the right to secede from just force. Justice is not unique to the individual it is applicable to all regardless of their geographical location. Therefore, just because someone says 'I have seceded from justice, justice does not apply within my borders' does not make it so. And so the application of justice need not respect these artificial boundaries, the artificial boundaries which are the construct of the individual secessionist.

    Sorry, for me, 'just force' does not compute. Could you provide us with several 'real world' examples, of what you have in mind?

    Thanks!

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    It's all in how you're defining "just force", of course.

    I've always appreciated the succinct simplicity of this video as a sort of primer on the topic:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Sorry, for me, 'just force' does not compute. Could you provide us with several 'real world' examples, of what you have in mind?

    Thanks!
    ex: the force required to prevent (apprehend) an individual from (for) killing their wife and children.

    ex: the force required to prevent, stop, or apprehend the individual responsible for raping another.

    In principle, just force is the defense of property rights, which includes the person and their possessions, and prosecution for individuals who do violate another's property rights.

    And to clarify, my position does not mean that someone is forced to recognize or pay taxes(let God judge your non-violent actions) to this hypothetical just government.... but when they kick in the hypothetical victimizer's door, the fact that the victimizer says 'I seceded' will not make the 'bringers of justice' wrong for bringing the victimizer to justice.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    ex: the force required to prevent (apprehend) an individual from (for) killing their wife and children.

    ex: the force required to prevent, stop, or apprehend the individual responsible for raping another.

    In principle, just force is the defense of property rights, which includes the person and their possessions, and prosecution for individuals who do violate another's property rights.

    And to clarify, my position does not mean that someone is forced to recognize or pay taxes(let God judge your non-violent actions) to this hypothetical just government.... but when they kick in the hypothetical victimizer's door, the fact that the victimizer says 'I seceded' will not make the 'bringers of justice' wrong for bringing the victimizer to justice.
    How are 'bringers of justice'(so-called) chosen, appointed and authorized?

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    How are 'bringers of justice'(so-called) chosen, appointed and authorized?
    Being that none are forced to pay taxes it is safe to say, without your input, permission, or approval... unless you play a role in the organization whom they operate for, of course... or the organization seeks your input, permission, or approval. And by 'you and your' I mean any given individual, not you specifically.

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