View Poll Results: The discussion in this thread changed my mind

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Thread: Trump Steel Tariffs Could Kill Up to 40,000 Auto Jobs, Nearly One-Third of Steel Workforce

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    I feel like the word 'tariff' is disingenuous. Would you agree that the use of 'tax' in its place is fair? Ultimately isn't that what it is-- a tax on imported goods?
    Whatever suits you.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    To answer the question, yes they do steal wealth from the people of a given country. That does not translate to the United States needing to adopt similar policies. In fact, the opposite.
    "Yes robbers use guns but that doesn't mean you can have one to defend yourself"
    If they are robbing their own citizens then you are receiving stolen goods when you buy from them, no good can come of it, we end up losing our industries and jobs as a consequence of buying from a fence.


    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    There is nothing more unethical than funny money. It corrupts literally every transaction which occurs with it.
    I agree but that is another topic.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    That's some serious trolling.
    Do you not have a pointless poll to waste time on?

    Maybe a poll about polls and voting and other cute things?

    Might just shut the $#@! up and pick up a book if you don't mind me being frank.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Whatever suits you.
    It would suit me to call it theft, but I digress.

    "Yes robbers use guns but that doesn't mean you can have one to defend yourself"
    If they are robbing their own citizens then you are receiving stolen goods when you buy from them, no good can come of it, we end up losing our industries and jobs as a consequence of buying from a fence.
    The US Government is robbing and subsidizing citizens of this country. Should no one buy American?

    The US currency is backed by words, is debased and travels the world distorting markets. Should every country follow suit and debase their own currency? Attempt to manipulate the market? Or should they boycott the dollar?

    Furthermore, that 'no good can come of it' is simply patently untrue. People in a given country need to fix their country if conditions aren't sympathetic to freedom (as we should). A lot of good comes from being able to purchase things more cheaply. For the US to receive cheaper steel, cars, vegetables etc.

    As far as distortion to markets go, manipulating a currency trumps all fraud, especially when it is considered that the dollar is the currency of currencies and OPEC oil must be priced in it.

    I agree but that is another topic.
    It is not unrelated to the topic of 'fair trade' and that is the point.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    It would suit me to call it theft, but I digress.


    The US Government is robbing and subsidizing citizens of this country. Should no one buy American?

    The US currency is backed by words, is debased and travels the world distorting markets. Should every country follow suit and debase their own currency? Attempt to manipulate the market? Or should they boycott the dollar?

    Furthermore, that 'no good can come of it' is simply patently untrue. People in a given country need to fix their country if conditions aren't sympathetic to freedom (as we should). A lot of good comes from being able to purchase things more cheaply. For the US to receive cheaper steel, cars, vegetables etc.

    As far as distortion to markets go, manipulating a currency trumps all fraud, especially when it is considered that the dollar is the currency of currencies and OPEC oil must be priced in it.


    It is not unrelated to the topic of 'fair trade' and that is the point.
    Other countries are free to do whatever they think necessary to defend themselves, we must do what we can to defend ourselves while also doing what we can to stop our government from doing wrong to the rest of the world.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Other countries are free to do whatever they think necessary to defend themselves, we must do what we can to defend ourselves while also doing what we can to stop our government from doing wrong to the rest of the world.
    You know, I typed near 500 words on this further explaining the detriment and this piece of $#@! device somehow deleted it. Probably all for the better, as annoying as it is.

    In short: we aren't going to see eye to eye, you (actually) won't leave people alone (as you implied earlier), protectionism destroys prosperity and Meh.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post

    If you want full employment, look no further than periods where if all in a family did not work they starved.
    No need to go that far back. I'd like to aim somewhere for the mid-20th century where manufacturing was booming, a dad worked a 9-5 and was able to raise a family with 3-4 kids, mom didn't have to work because dad had a stable, decent paying job at the factory and worked it all the way to retirement.

    Now mom raises 3-4 kids by herself (and the help of a welfare program all-too-eager to offer sustenance in exchange for votes), dad's in jail, the factories are gone, and China and Europe are sitting behind walls of protective tariffs (which should have destroyed their economies, according to "free market" theory, but apparently not in the real world) with our former employers like, "hey, you need to borrow some money?" LOL.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 03-12-2018 at 04:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    No need to go that far back. I'd like to aim somewhere for the mid-20th century where manufacturing was booming,

    China and Europe are sitting behind walls of protective tariffs (which should have destroyed their economies, according to "free market" theory, but apparently not in the real world)
    In the mid 20th century, the world bought from the US b/c WWII destroyed Europe. China hadn't opened up its economy and automation was not nearly as it is advanced now.

    Are you under the impression China and Europe are doing well? China is still one of the poorest places on Earth. Welfare in the US buys more than the average income in China. The US does better than all but a couple very small countries in Europe. Most of Europe is a decaying mess.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    In the mid 20th century, the world bought from the US b/c WWII destroyed Europe. China hadn't opened up its economy and automation was not nearly as it is advanced now.

    Are you under the impression China and Europe are doing well? China is still one of the poorest places on Earth. Welfare in the US buys more than the average income in China. The US does better than all but a couple very small countries in Europe. Most of Europe is a decaying mess.
    I think we are all just aiming for the American dream, and for each of us its a little bit different, but for a lot of us its a family with two parents and one doesn't have to work unless they are paying off braces or for just for the Holidays to buy gifts. Where having health insurance meant that if you got sick you wouldn't go broke. Where if you got layed off at your job you could apply at several places on your way home and have an interview the following Monday. Where the bank doesn't own everyones houses, everyone doesn't have a credit card bill and student loan debt they will never pay. Where people aren't in jail for something that was grown in the ground. Where people don't commit crimes to go to jail because it beats living on the streets.

  11. #99
    So good to see the pro-tax crowd here defending this tariff nonsense.

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    So good to see the pro-tax crowd here defending this tariff nonsense.
    It is nonsense . So is the title of the OP . No jobs have been lost . All propaganda .

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I think we are all just aiming for the American dream, and for each of us its a little bit different, but for a lot of us its a family with two parents and one doesn't have to work unless they are paying off braces or for just for the Holidays to buy gifts. Where having health insurance meant that if you got sick you wouldn't go broke. Where if you got layed off at your job you could apply at several places on your way home and have an interview the following Monday. Where the bank doesn't own everyones houses, everyone doesn't have a credit card bill and student loan debt they will never pay. Where people aren't in jail for something that was grown in the ground. Where people don't commit crimes to go to jail because it beats living on the streets.
    That's a prettier picture than even I'd have painted. honestly I'd settle for everyone working for their own living and keeping too busy to worry about what I got. You got the gist of it, though. The working class was replaced by a welfare class, and while I 've seen a lot of little-L libertarians mock and jeer and recite South Park 'dey terk er jerbs', I have to wonder who is really laughing. Those languishing in free housing collecting checks every week, or we who pay their checks.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 03-12-2018 at 08:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    It is nonsense . So is the title of the OP . No jobs have been lost . All propaganda .
    Are you talking Paul Bunyan Mythological Trump or real life Trump? Where do you think homeless people come from? Do you think that they are all just hard on their luck or idiots with money? We don't have real gains from the tax cuts because they haven't cut spending and so its just horse $#@! that people are defending this disgusting bipartisanship $#@!ing of the American people. I don't care if you want to pretend this myth that the economy is getting better, but I see everyone claiming that Ron Paul is going to be right, even people like Bill Gates is saying it, they don't say RON PAUL WAS RIGHT. They say oh the economy is going to go into another recession. Well I am here to say Ron Paul is right, but we can still stop it, if we are loud enough.

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Are you talking Paul Bunyan Mythological Trump or real life Trump? Where do you think homeless people come from? Do you think that they are all just hard on their luck or idiots with money? We don't have real gains from the tax cuts because they haven't cut spending and so its just horse $#@! that people are defending this disgusting bipartisanship $#@!ing of the American people. I don't care if you want to pretend this myth that the economy is getting better, but I see everyone claiming that Ron Paul is going to be right, even people like Bill Gates is saying it, they don't say RON PAUL WAS RIGHT. They say oh the economy is going to go into another recession. Well I am here to say Ron Paul is right, but we can still stop it, if we are loud enough.
    Economic growth has been pretty well unchanged since the crash ( around 2 percent ) it will not change in my opinion until the next crash . So , no , I have never been of the opinion that the economy is better . I do not see that jobs have been lost to tariffs , I believe that to be of little effect .

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Economic growth has been pretty well unchanged since the crash ( around 2 percent ) it will not change in my opinion until the next crash . So , no , I have never been of the opinion that the economy is better . I do not see that jobs have been lost to tariffs , I believe that to be of little effect .
    No you' are wrong, in this glass ecnomy made up of thoughts and feelings and the MSM narrative is that tarrifs are bad, it will get worse, and if he had announced them and not did them the economy would of magically done better. Thats how the economy works until we put a better system in, so you're wrong.



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    It is nonsense . So is the title of the OP . No jobs have been lost . All propaganda .
    Undoubtedly, far more jobs will be lost from any additional tariffs than will be "saved". By the way, what good is a saved job if it disappears again the moment the tariff is removed?

    This nostalgia of mid 20th century American manufacturing has got to go. This nonsense is based on the same premise as the arguments of the Luddites.

    American manufacturing like you saw in the steel and aluminum industries will never return to where it was, despite all the good intentions in the world by the nanny state. But that's not a bad thing... Automation allows 1 worker to do the work of many in a much safer way. Why in the world do you want to return to a time in the past where workers would do back-breaking labor for 40+ years only to retire missing a few of their fingers, maybe a limb, and with who knows how many environmentally caused diseases?

    If we can produce steel at a competitive quality and price and it's in demand, then we'll produce it. If we can't then that simply means it's more efficient for our economy to import the steel and use it as an input in upstream manufacturing processes. If another country wants to screw their own citizenry over by taxing them at our benefit, why in the world would be want to do the same?

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    If we can produce steel at a competitive quality and price and it's in demand, then we'll produce it. If we can't then that simply means it's more efficient for our economy to import the steel and use it as an input in upstream manufacturing processes.
    In other words we cannot compete with Chinese slave labor, their complete disregard for the environment, human rights and we should enrich the Chinese Communist party so they pose a greater threat than we already made them through trade.

    To hell with morality, to hell with any effort to bring back more than 55,000 factories and 6,000,000 manufacturing jobs lost due to the trade since Bush I. To hell with Americans, all hail China.

    ^That is effectively the position of the free traders. Disgusting pagan immorality.

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    In other words we cannot compete with Chinese slave labor, their complete disregard for the environment, human rights and we should enrich the Chinese Communist party so they pose a greater threat than we already made them through trade.
    You have this precisely backwards.

    The person who has decided that America cannot compete is you. If you believed otherwise, you wouldn't need protectionism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    No need to go that far back. I'd like to aim somewhere for the mid-20th century where manufacturing was booming, a dad worked a 9-5 and was able to raise a family with 3-4 kids, mom didn't have to work because dad had a stable, decent paying job at the factory and worked it all the way to retirement.

    Now mom raises 3-4 kids by herself (and the help of a welfare program all-too-eager to offer sustenance in exchange for votes), dad's in jail, the factories are gone, and China and Europe are sitting behind walls of protective tariffs (which should have destroyed their economies, according to "free market" theory, but apparently not in the real world) with our former employers like, "hey, you need to borrow some money?" LOL.
    You mean decades of loose monetary policy has consequences?

    Considering the current track record of the government, the dollar having lost some 99% of its value, the booming deficit spending, the largest prison population in the world in true numbers and per capita, the waste, fraud and cronyism at every level-- why do you trust them to get it right this time? (Getting it right in the sense of placing tariffs on the right industry)
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Do you not have a pointless poll to waste time on?

    Maybe a poll about polls and voting and other cute things?

    Might just shut the $#@! up and pick up a book if you don't mind me being frank.
    Chillax.

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by The Northbreather View Post
    So instead of admitting that market interference is bad and either doing nothing or doing something novel like removing restrictions he gonna do some really really good central planning “so there will be less central planning”.

    Okay well I guess we just have to leave it there as we have fundamental philosophical differences.

    I’m going with poor old misguided Ron lol
    How can you remove restrictions if there were no restrictions in the first place? How do you remove restrictions other countries place on the USA without some sort of leverage?

    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 01/15/24
    Trump will win every single state primary by double digits.
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  24. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    In other words we cannot compete with Chinese slave labor, their complete disregard for the environment, human rights and we should enrich the Chinese Communist party so they pose a greater threat than we already made them through trade.

    To hell with morality, to hell with any effort to bring back more than 55,000 factories and 6,000,000 manufacturing jobs lost due to the trade since Bush I. To hell with Americans, all hail China.

    ^That is effectively the position of the free traders. Disgusting pagan immorality.

  25. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    In other words we cannot compete with Chinese slave labor, their complete disregard for the environment, human rights and we should enrich the Chinese Communist party so they pose a greater threat than we already made them through trade.

    To hell with morality, to hell with any effort to bring back more than 55,000 factories and 6,000,000 manufacturing jobs lost due to the trade since Bush I. To hell with Americans, all hail China.

    ^That is effectively the position of the free traders. Disgusting pagan immorality.
    Oh so now you are claiming the moral high-ground? I suppose only you can care about Chinese slaves? You are using an argument that every big government goon uses on a regular basis for each tax they want to impose and for each additional freedom they want to strip from us.

    Why do you even want to bother trying to compete with slave labor? It's a pointless endeavor. Why do you insist our working class be subjected to hard labor, low output tasks? Our economy thrives on adding value. Value that is created via capital, investment, technology, science, and specialized labor. We don't need to produce aluminum when we can import it, add in some electrical components, and export it for a 500x return on investment.

    Why is it you are so hyper-focused on the Chinese boogeyman? How much of our steel is imported from China. Somewhere less than 4%?

    Your solution to the immoral Chinese labor practices that you supposedly are so concerned about is for our government to respond via additional immoral actions. Except the difference here is that we can actually control the morality of what our government does. We are not Chinese citizens and have no voice in their political process. You would have our government steal / tax its own citizens and destroy its own wealth all in the name of your morality, achieving nothing in the process.

    Well, I hope you are at least consistent in your belief. Of course this would mean that you are for nation building, preemptive war, the welfare state, higher taxes... pretty much everything we're supposedly against around here.



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  27. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by The Northbreather View Post
    So instead of admitting that market interference is bad and either doing nothing or doing something novel like removing restrictions he gonna do some really really good central planning “so there will be less central planning”.

    Okay well I guess we just have to leave it there as we have fundamental philosophical differences.

    I’m going with poor old misguided Ron lol

    No, it's not a philosophical difference, it is you misunderstanding what is going to happen. Philosophically, we both want lower taxes, less money going to government, and what money does go to government we want it to be spread out in a way that does not favor specific regions or industries.

    What you don't seem to understand, is that is already happening on a MASSIVE scale - specifically, our country is massively penalized by other governments all around the world.

    Trump put up the tariffs as a place to start negotiations for them to lower the tariffs and make trade policies more beneficial for both sides. For example, he essentially told Mexico and Canada they were going to be paying the new tariffs by default - but they have a way out - lowering their tariffs on us. That would mean they wouldn't end up paying the steel or aluminum tariff, but they would have to lower their tariffs that we pay going in the other direction.. Net result?? Lower tariffs!!

    Trump knows how to negotiate, these tariffs will not cost us anything, what he will do with negotiations that benefit us will far outweigh any costs that we see.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  28. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    No, it's not a philosophical difference, it is you misunderstanding what is going to happen. Philosophically, we both want lower taxes, less money going to government, and what money does go to government we want it to be spread out in a way that does not favor specific regions or industries.

    What you don't seem to understand, is that is already happening on a MASSIVE scale - specifically, our country is massively penalized by other governments all around the world.

    Trump put up the tariffs as a place to start negotiations for them to lower the tariffs and make trade policies more beneficial for both sides. For example, he essentially told Mexico and Canada they were going to be paying the new tariffs by default - but they have a way out - lowering their tariffs on us. That would mean they wouldn't end up paying the steel or aluminum tariff, but they would have to lower their tariffs that we pay going in the other direction.. Net result?? Lower tariffs!!

    Trump knows how to negotiate, these tariffs will not cost us anything, what he will do with negotiations that benefit us will far outweigh any costs that we see.
    Ok, Dannno, listen... I'm all for other countries to stop impoverishing their citizens. That's a noble idea. But to impoverish our own to gain leverage for them to do so, is not wise. And it is CERTAINLY not the role of government. Get back on the Ron Paul train here.

    Obviously, some sectors of our economy would like a wider pool of potential consumers. That's a good thing. But our government doesn't owe that to them. What it does owe us is to stay out of the commerce between individual Americans and the importers whose goods we want. Our government is meant to enforce negative rights - not to create positive rights out of thin air for politically connected interests.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  29. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Ok, Dannno, listen... I'm all for other countries to stop impoverishing their citizens. That's a noble idea. But to impoverish our own to gain leverage for them to do so, is not wise. And it is CERTAINLY not the role of government. Get back on the Ron Paul train here.

    Obviously, some sectors of our economy would like a wider pool of potential consumers. That's a good thing. But our government doesn't owe that to them. What it does owe us is to stay out of the commerce between individual Americans and the importers whose goods we want. Our government is meant to enforce negative rights - not to create positive rights out of thin air for politically connected interests.
    OUR citizens are being impoverished by being forced to compete with slave labor with the playing field tilted in the slaves favor by tariffs and subsidies.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    OUR citizens are being impoverished by being forced to compete with slave labor with the playing field tilted in the slaves favor by tariffs and subsidies.
    US citizens ARE slave labor.

    The "American Dream" is a form of slavery but has all the buzz words to keep people obedient. Public Education is the formula to keep kids "babies" until they are compliant. If they rebel, they are drugged.

    We need to fix our own country first, get rid of the slavery HERE, bring freedom to the people & then help other countries understand that true freedom brings prosperity.
    There is no spoon.

  31. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    US citizens ARE slave labor.

    The "American Dream" is a form of slavery but has all the buzz words to keep people obedient. Public Education is the formula to keep kids "babies" until they are compliant. If they rebel, they are drugged.

    We need to fix our own country first, get rid of the slavery HERE, bring freedom to the people & then help other countries understand that true freedom brings prosperity.
    And we can't do that if people are reduced to absolute serfdom.
    The American middle class was the best hope for freedom that is why the globalists destroyed it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And we can't do that if people are reduced to absolute serfdom.
    The American middle class was the best hope for freedom that is why the globalists destroyed it.
    The "middle class" is the epitome of serfdom. They are NOT free- just edumacated to think so.
    There is no spoon.

  33. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    The "middle class" is the epitome of serfdom. They are NOT free- just edumacated to think so.
    LOL
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    OUR citizens are being impoverished by being forced to compete with slave labor with the playing field tilted in the slaves favor by tariffs and subsidies.
    We have benefited more from global trade than any country in the history of civilization. Your statement is flat out wrong. If anything, we've been enriched.



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