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Thread: A Muslim Ban Is Logical, Moral, And Even Libertarian

  1. #151
    With busy news cycles it may have not come to our collective attention... so I'm going to remind everyone of little historic detail that I'm confident will change mind of OP and anyone else who may agree with such a ban.

    Did you know that if such a ban had been in place few decades earlier, President Obama's muslim father may not have been here, historic President Obama may never have been born here inside the US or become first historic President of the US within few years of Iraqi Freedom?
    Among other things, that would have meant no historic jubilations in 2008, no Obamacare, probably no gay wedding cakes in the military or outside/no Libya or Syria freedoms.

    Sometimes quick fixes can be tempting but it should give us all a pause when we take time to consider the gigantic historic repercussions of such bans.

    Case is rested.

    /case

    /thread



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  3. #152
    Out of all the creatures in the political jungle the lolbertarian is among the strangest. Whenever asked about demographics, voting, trends, and immigration policy it has the tendency to shriek out a piercing noise that can be interpreted as "muh constitution." However, when the subject is questioned on the specifics of the Constitution and the rather strict naturalization policies of the Founders, along with quotes and statements of said men, the lolbertarian retreats, grumbling, "muh austrian economics." Likewise, when the explorer points out that Austrian economics is a largely outdated, discredited 19th century economic theory that exists on the fringes of academia and largely outside of it (*ahem* Mises Institute) the Lolbertarian has a sneaky trick up hidden in his quills which comes in the form of, "muh NAP tho." However, when the inquisitive mind asks for a coherent definition of aggression and what exactly constitutes 'violence' he is met with silence and usual ambiguity until the Lolbertarian finally barks out, "RAWN PAWL!"


    Now onto the usual An-Cap and Libertarian arguments:

    Rights are inherent in the individual and no outside agency has any just authority over them except in those very narrowly defined situations.


    Sounds like some strange metaphysical proposition here- what are rights and what is the objective epistemological source that one could use to derive these mysterious 'rights' so we can know when they end and begin? Sounds like a lot of assumptions and cultural baggage.

    And you certainly have no just authority to use the violence of the state to assuage you own fears at the expense of the rights of others


    You assume the State is inherently violent- however you merely presuppose [your own An-Cap interpretation of] the NAP in order to do so- my question to you is this: why don't you presuppose the State as an abstract entity (analogous to a platonic form) essential to human society and perhaps of a divine origin? Seems absurd to you (not to me) but it's equally as subjective as your presuppositions on the matter. Now whether or not the State, in its current western democratic-republic form, can choose to not accept people form x, y, and z countries? The answer will be a resounding yes. Demographics and voting do matter in America, sorry- if we accepted everyone from Europe, Latin America, and Asia then we wouldn't have an America anymore- we'd have a weird oligarchy with a single political party (in this case the Democratic Party) ruling things from now until the end of the USA. Ann Coulter brings this up and it's worth listening to- unless you can show me how a Republican or Libertarian could win a statewide election in California anytime soon.


    Islam is NOT compatible with Liberty, by any stretch of the imagination. Islam is about compliance, control, and obedience.
    I generally agree here- the hardest thing for me to accept growing older was that ideas have consequences. Things don't just exist in a vacuum Culture & religion do shape people differently- my religion (or at least how I interpret it) tends to be rather authoritarian and statist (with a heavy emphasis on absolute Monarchies) and that's also my outlook. Islamic worldview is dependent upon conquest and submission- there's little room for infidels in many contemporary Islamic countries. Contemporary. Not 600 years ago, although it hasn't gotten much better. Strangely enough Muslim countries are the exception to the rule of secularization- whereas everyone else became gradually liberal and secular since the 60's the Islamic nations went in the complete opposition direction. Compare 70's Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran to their counterparts today. Disturbing stuff. Accepting them en masse isn't beneficial for us, sorry. One would be wise to look at the mass Islamic immigration into Europe and see how well assimilation and integration has worked out there. When the noble AfD were putting up posters in the inner cities the youths came and ripped them down one by one, with massive 'protests' (riots) and typical nonsense. Does that sound like a model group? One that can't even accept the moderate, "hey we are taking in too many immigrants here.." type position? No- they don't care because they don't have their new nations' interests at heart, they'd rather see their religious-ethnic interests promoted. That's a problem- deal with it. Don't just say "muh individualism tho," that $#@! isn't an argument.


    I remember asking a question on this very forum years ago, which was how do we build a Libertarian society if we had a policy of mass immigration or even [god forbird] open borders? The answers were all subpar and regurgitated Ayn Randian nonsense (INdividualismm!@!!1!1!!). But when looking at what's tangible and actual trends we see the results of mass immigration- pure Democratic bloc voting. California is now lost forever, more states will follow. All you'd need to do is flood a few swing states with third world migrants and BAM- goodbye to the national GOP. That's the reality of the situation we face here. So what's the solution? Trump's RAISE Act plan is a good start, but we need to be even more severe than that eventually. Assimilation + birth rates stabilizing will give hope to whatever is left of our dwindling democracy. Inshallah.. or something.
    Last edited by Identity; 11-06-2017 at 05:35 PM.



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  5. #153

  6. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/03/a-...n-libertarian/

    Ilana Mercer has been writing a weekly paleolibertarian column since 1999,
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    This is where the writer of the Original Post fails greatest both factually and logically.
    With some 2 billion Muslims in the world they are not all running around committing terrorists acts.
    What the Original Post neglects to recognized, is the fact the perpetrators of terrorists acts overwhelmingly belong to a small sub-sect of Sunni Islam called Wahhabi/Salafi - which includes the various Al Qaeda organizations, ISIS, Mujaheddin/Taliban, etc.
    The Wahhabi/Salafi also happens to be based out of Saudi Arabia, funded, promoted and supported by Saudi Arabia. They also happen to be funded and armed by Washington for its geopolitical objectives.
    A more logical argument by the Original Post would be a ban on Wahhabi/Salafi and Saudis. A ban on all Muslims is the equivalent of a blanket ban on all Christians based on the acts of the IRA in during twentieth century.

    When you consider there are 2 billion Muslims in the world, proportionally (and likely in absolute numbers) there are far more Americans involved in terrorists acts (drone assassinations, bombing civilians, invading nations, regime change, creating funding and arming terrorists organizations, etc.). The belief system behind these terrorists acts happens to be the neocon philosophy. It is also the neocons' policies that have been creating, arming, funding and using these Wahhabi/Salafi terror organizations.
    Agree. Lumping all Islam together serves the agenda of the neocon, leftist, globalist establishment.

    The neoconservatives want to conflate the Salafi Jihadists with other branches of Islam to make them all look bad. The open borders left wants to do the opposite, they want to dilute the Salafi Jihadists in with others to make them all look acceptable for immigration. And confuse everyone in the process. Quite a strategy.

    The OP author (Mercer) is being a useful idiot for the establishment.

    An analogy of this lumping together would be to say that just because some radical offshoot of Christianity was pushing violent ideology, all Christians should be suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The media loves to call these attacks a "lone wolf" attack. Purely an attempt at political correctness. If an organization or nation is at war, and is instructing the members or followers of that group to engage in attacks, there is no "lone" about the attack.

    Now the media has conflicting agendas at work here. In order to be politically correct, and push the leftist globalist narrative, they don't want to blame any particular group. On the other hand, the neoconservative side of the media wants to infer blame on groups that are not involved, thus they will use the blanket term of Islam.

    But to be accurate and specific, modern terrorist attacks in Europe and the US are by Salafi jihadists, which is a subset of Sunni Islam, thus it does not apply to all Muslims, does not apply to Shias, does not apply to all Sunni's and does not apply to all Salafists.

    Who does it apply to? Wahhabism is a subset of Salafism. The best examples of practitioners of the terrorist brand of Salafi Jihadist Islam are ISIS and Al-Qaeda. Saudi Arabia is officially Wahhabist, so the radicalized jihadi version often has connections to that nation, although Salafism is a transnational movement. Additionally, the Muslim Brotherhood sometimes refer to themselves as Salafists, which is probably a way for them to claim greater numbers internationally.

    Bottom line: don't expect any accuracy in reporting from the media, who have their own agendas that require them to be intentionally vague.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  7. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    What the hell are you even talking about?! You really think there is no individuality in the Muslim faith?! Talk about a serious collective mentality! Sheesh! I know many Muslims and none of them fit this caricature you've created in your head. My doctor is Muslim. Our kids used to go to the same school. I've played cards with him and we've had each other over for dinner on multiple occasions. He is by FAR more liberty-oriented than you. He sees people as individuals like I do. He doesn't make rash and false judgments about people based on what some boogeyman may have done. In other words, he's not a moron. (well, he doesn't eat bacon. So, obviously, he's not all put together. But, at least we can joke about it.)
    Very little individually if they are devout. Many muslims, when in the minority, go along to get along (don't rock the boat); but when they become the majority, then everything changes (time to promote themselves to Capt.) I am sure your doctor is great, but ask him what he thinks of Sharia Law, apostates, woman's rights, while enjoying a BLT at the table with him. Again, did you watch any of the videos? Care to comment on those "boogeymen" the videos reference? The statistics that many "peaceful" muslims actually beleive what Islam teaches even though they may not have the balls (now) to practice it....

    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Hold on a minute. Neither you nor I as individuals, nor any other individual, nor any group of us collectively have the just authority to "extend those rights" to any individual, nor to remove them from any individual unless and until that individual has violated the rights of another causing provable damage in real life, in the here and now. Rights are inherent in the individual and no outside agency has any just authority over them except in those very narrowly defined situations. You cannot act in prior restraint, based upon some fictional scenario that may or may not ever occur in real life at some undetermined point in the future. And you certainly have no just authority to use the violence of the state to assuage you own fears at the expense of the rights of others. Either we adhere to this simple, irrefutable truth or what we're supporting is something quite different from liberty.
    It is not a fictional scenario. Look at Europe. Turning the other cheek to give someone who follow an anti liberty and anti freedom agenda is just plain stupid, even if it violates their "rights." Rights are reserved for those who wish to preserve and respect everyone else's rights. It is not for those whose ultimate goal, by declaration of their faith which decries conquering and making everyone convert or perish, hence trampling and revoking said rights (even if they are currently acting like get along Charlie's.)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    No. I expect to promote liberty by, you know, promoting liberty. Treating each person as an individual instead of prejudging them by what you say 70-90% of other people that look like them may do.
    Again, you haven't watched any of the videos... Like what happened in London when they took took over neighborhoods...
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

  8. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    So you know a secular Muslim's that have since assimilated. What does that have to do with the 70-90% of foreign born that demand Sharia law and/or from regions that pose a significant jihadist threat?

    The Islamic government belief system is the antithesis of the libertarian belief system.
    Yet you expect to grow the libertarian movement by opening the flood gates of immigration to people that oppose your beliefs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Then go preach liberty in their lands, don't bring them here to destroy liberty and then try to MAYBE convert them and rebuild it.

    The Islamic government belief system is the antithesis of the libertarian belief system. Don't bring them here to destroy liberty and then try to MAYBE convert them and rebuild it.


    Bingo! We have a winner!
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

  9. #157
    Thread like this are why I can hardly post here anymore. I get it now though, a sizable portion of Paul's support were never actually for individual liberty and basic human rights. The title looks insane to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    No, since that is not a guide telling people how to behave or a government belief system pretending to be a religion.

    While Sharia and this is a cause for concern.



    If there was a Christian sect that had added bible scriptures that dictated to it's followers:

    - the goal of achieving it's authoritarian state belief system.
    - that members should become jihadists.
    - that the lives of non-members are meaningless unless they convert.
    - convert or kill the infidel.

    I would be just as apt to support limiting immigration from that region as well.
    That would be the Papal Bulls of the 1400s. Sending forth warriors to, "attack, conquer, and subjugate Saracens, pagans and other enemies of Christ wherever they may be found." And that is just what they did. The Age of Discovery was quite ugly, the reverberations still rock us today. Interestingly, while the church started walking back on the slavery thing the next century, they did not walk it back concerning muslims for centuries more...

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Man, where are these people coming from? In order to violate the NAP, there needs to be an aggression. The only aggression I'm seeing by an individual is by some of the posters in this thread. (not the sane ones, mind you, just the scaredypants that have been convinced brown people are trying to kill them and eat their babies.)
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Which is more ironic?
    "anti-fascists" who use violence to deny freedom of expression, or "libertarians" who believe that's what government is for?
    +1
    Don't let others get you down. Not naysayers, not pretenders, not appeasers, not opportunists; none of em.

    What others do pales beside what YOU do.

    Press on! - The r3VOLution continues...

    "Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence.Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

    ~ C.Coolidge

  10. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulhawaii View Post
    Thread like this are why I can hardly post here anymore. I get it now though, a sizable portion of Paul's support were never actually for individual liberty and basic human rights. The title looks insane to me.



    That would be the Papal Bulls of the 1400s. Sending forth warriors to, "attack, conquer, and subjugate Saracens, pagans and other enemies of Christ wherever they may be found." And that is just what they did. The Age of Discovery was quite ugly, the reverberations still rock us today. Interestingly, while the church started walking back on the slavery thing the next century, they did not walk it back concerning muslims for centuries more...



    +1



    +1
    ^^^THIS^^^
    There is no spoon.

  11. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulhawaii View Post
    That would be the Papal Bulls of the 1400s. Sending forth warriors to, "attack, conquer, and subjugate Saracens, pagans and other enemies of Christ wherever they may be found." And that is just what they did. The Age of Discovery was quite ugly, the reverberations still rock us today. Interestingly, while the church started walking back on the slavery thing the next century, they did not walk it back concerning muslims for centuries more...
    And how many Christians believe in those doctrines today? Where are they found in Christian scripture?

    On what basis do you claim that ANY foreigner has a "RIGHT" to come here without our permission?


    We have a muslim member of this site that shows that it MIGHT be possible for liberty to take root in their culture, see this thread:
    Scientific research should be privately funded

    But until it does we have a right and a duty to our children's children to limit or even ban immigration from ANY anti-liberty culture. (That may include most of the world at this point)

    I repeat what I said above: Go preach liberty in their lands, don't bring them here to destroy liberty and then MAYBE convert them and rebuild it. (GOOD LUCK STAYING ALIVE IF YOU START TO HAVE MUCH OF AN IMPACT BY THE WAY)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #160
    ^^^ Strawman serving up a red herring... #NoThanks
    Don't let others get you down. Not naysayers, not pretenders, not appeasers, not opportunists; none of em.

    What others do pales beside what YOU do.

    Press on! - The r3VOLution continues...

    "Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence.Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

    ~ C.Coolidge



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  14. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulhawaii View Post
    ^^^ Strawman serving up a red herring... #NoThanks
    From the guy who compared modern muslim culture to 1400's Christian culture.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And how many Christians believe in those doctrines today?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    From the guy who compared modern muslim culture to 1400's Christian culture.
    Russia has declared that Jehova witness's are a terrorist organization

  16. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Russia has declared that Jehova witness's are a terrorist organization
    AND?..........

    This is proof that Russians are just as anti-liberty as muslims?
    If you think it is then you should note that I said:

    But until it does we have a right and a duty to our children's children to limit or even ban immigration from ANY anti-liberty culture. (That may include most of the world at this point)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Um... Yeah... You don't know what "liberty" means.

    "When THEY wish to exterminate you..." They?! Are you really suggesting that there is no diversity of opinion in the Muslim world?! So if some of them mean you harm, it means that ALL of them mean you harm?! And since some of them commit violence, you feel justified in using pre-crime to exclude them all?! Well, I'm pretty sure you can apply that to, oh I don't know, EVERY religion in the world! So yeah, you either do what AF suggests or you treat people as individuals - with their own free will and freedom of thought.

    I take it you don't have any Muslim friends. Or maybe you think they secretly wish you dead and are just waiting for the right time. "Liberty" is an individual state of being - not a group state of being. You may not understand this, but your means ensure that your ends will never be achieved.
    Pretty much this^^ I get the impression that some people think "muslim=arab". Nope. Lots of Muslims in sub-sarharan Africa too. And there are plenty of Arab Christians. (One of the Great Orthodox Christian patriarchates is in Syria)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  18. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    From the guy who compared modern muslim culture to 1400's Christian culture.
    So, you just make stuff up? Interesting. There is no such comparison. Just historical facts adding perspective to the discussion.

    In the bigger picture, wounds take time to heal, but that aint gonna happen til we stop inflicting them.

    Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that Islam is trailing Christianity modernizing, and while that is mostly true, it would help if they didn't have to worry so much about crazy Westerners who want to bomb them all back to the stone age. If you look you'll see that Islam is not a borg praying 5 times a day; plenty of countries within the muslim world itself don't want Saudi-like shariah, etc... Maybe, if we just stopped meddling they would modernize themselves. That seems the libertarian thing to do.
    Don't let others get you down. Not naysayers, not pretenders, not appeasers, not opportunists; none of em.

    What others do pales beside what YOU do.

    Press on! - The r3VOLution continues...

    "Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence.Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

    ~ C.Coolidge

  19. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulhawaii View Post
    So, you just make stuff up? Interesting. There is no such comparison. Just historical facts adding perspective to the discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    No, since that is not a guide telling people how to behave or a government belief system pretending to be a religion.

    While Sharia and this is a cause for concern.

    “Fight against those who do not obey Allah and do not believe in Allah or the Last Day and do not forbid what has been forbidden by Allah and His messenger even if they are of the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.” 9:29

    “Kill them wherever you find them and drive them out from where they drove you out. Persecution is worse than slaughter.” 2:191

    “When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks.” 47:4

    “Oh you who believe, fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you and let them find harshness in you.” 9:123

    “Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. Those who follow Him are merciful to one another but harsh to the disbeliever.” 48:29

    The specific need to ”strike terror in the hearts” of infidels” is unambiguously stated in many places in the Qur’an, as here:

    “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority.” (3:151)

    I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them” (8:12).



    If there was a Christian sect that had added bible scriptures that dictated to it's followers:

    - the goal of achieving it's authoritarian state belief system.
    - that members should become jihadists.
    - that the lives of non-members are meaningless unless they convert.
    - convert or kill the infidel.

    I would be just as apt to support limiting immigration from that region as well.
    Followed by:
    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulhawaii View Post
    That would be the Papal Bulls of the 1400s. Sending forth warriors to, "attack, conquer, and subjugate Saracens, pagans and other enemies of Christ wherever they may be found." And that is just what they did. The Age of Discovery was quite ugly, the reverberations still rock us today. Interestingly, while the church started walking back on the slavery thing the next century, they did not walk it back concerning muslims for centuries more...
    That is NOT comparing 1400's Christians to modern muslims as a strawman?????






    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulhawaii View Post
    In the bigger picture, wounds take time to heal, but that aint gonna happen til we stop inflicting them.

    Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that Islam is trailing Christianity modernizing, and while that is mostly true, it would help if they didn't have to worry so much about crazy Westerners who want to bomb them all back to the stone age. If you look you'll see that Islam is not a borg praying 5 times a day; plenty of countries within the muslim world itself don't want Saudi-like shariah, etc... Maybe, if we just stopped meddling they would modernize themselves. That seems the libertarian thing to do.
    Yup, we ALL know the wars must end, the recent injuries inflicted on the middle east are just another reason we shouldn't let in hordes of people with a motive for vengeance.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Followed by:


    That is NOT comparing 1400's Christians to modern muslims as a strawman?????
    No, as I said, it is adding historical facts for perspective. In this case something that "The West" started with these bulls, and hasn't really stopped in the 600 years since.


    Yup, we ALL know the wars must end, the recent injuries inflicted on the middle east are just another reason we shouldn't let in hordes of people with a motive for vengeance.
    Not sure who you are talking to. I'm certainly not for letting in any hordes, but blanket bans are as un-libertarian as I can imagine
    Don't let others get you down. Not naysayers, not pretenders, not appeasers, not opportunists; none of em.

    What others do pales beside what YOU do.

    Press on! - The r3VOLution continues...

    "Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence.Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

    ~ C.Coolidge

  21. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Russia has declared that Jehova witness's are a terrorist organization
    And now they want to bomb the Vatican? #NeoconLogic
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  23. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulhawaii View Post
    No, as I said, it is adding historical facts for perspective. In this case something that "The West" started with these bulls, and hasn't really stopped in the 600 years since.
    Mohammad started it when he attacked the Byzantines and Persians.




    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulhawaii View Post
    Not sure who you are talking to. I'm certainly not for letting in any hordes, but blanket bans are as un-libertarian as I can imagine
    It is neither Libertarian or Un-Libertarian, they have no inherent right to come here so it is not a matter of rights or liberty, unless you want to talk about our children's children's rights to inherit a liberty culture; in which case you could say that it is Libertarian.

    I do not even necessarily endorse a COMPLETE ban, but IF we let any in from such an anti-liberty culture it should be so few as to be almost a ban.

    Again before the race SJWs get involved: I feel this way about most of the world so it has nothing to do with race.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Mohammad started it when he attacked the Byzantines and Persians.

    The Romans (Byzantines) and Persia had been at war for 6 centuries. Roman had taken land from England to Syria and the Persians fought with them continually until they were both conquered by Mohammad's army that was on it's way to Mecca.

    So, no- Mohammad did NOT start that war- he finished a 600 year war that was all about power and ego.
    There is no spoon.

  25. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    The Romans (Byzantines) and Persia had been at war for 6 centuries. Roman had taken land from England to Syria and the Persians fought with them continually until they were both conquered by Mohammad's army that was on it's way to Mecca.

    So, no- Mohammad did NOT start that war- he finished a 600 year war that was all about power and ego.
    We are talking about cultures that presently exist, Christianity and islam, between those two islam started it.

    If you want to go back into the mists of ancient history then you had better side with Israel and help them take all the land between the Euphrates and the sea.

    The real answer is to pull out and let GOD deal with the problem, but who started it actually has no bearing on who we should allow into our country, islam is one of the most anti-liberty cultures on the planet and we should let in few to none of it's followers.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    You take a minority of people from a small website and with a broad brush paint all Muslims for holding that belief. So much for you taking people as individuals.
    This is a logically flawed false straw response to the point to idiocy. Nowhere was it stated, implied or suggested that "all Muslims hold" libertarian beliefs.
    Rather it was pointed our there are indeed libertarian Muslims countering Kahless' collectivist mindset that all Muslims hold the beliefs that Kahless collectively imputes to all 2 billion Muslims in the world.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  27. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    I in fact do for the most part take people as individuals but also believe in self preservation. When polls show ... 70-90% or more from a specific region support an authoritarian belief system as a form of government and jihad as a way of life to get there, it is wise to consider screening or limiting entry from those regions. Like Rand said you do not have an automatic right to come here.
    Talk about self contradictory irrational doublespeak. In the very same passage claims to treat people as individuals, while in the very next sentence imputes entire collectivists traits, beliefs, and motives based on happenstance of geography and birth regardless of the individual's actual beliefs and character.

    And what of the qualification "for the most part". Either one views individuals as individuals or not.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  28. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    it is wise to consider screening or limiting entry from those regions. Like Rand said you do not have an automatic right to come here.
    This is correct. However, this is not what the Original Post argued. This is both scope shift diversion and straw arguments, more logical flaws. The Original Post "OP" did not call for "limiting" or "screening." Instead of some vetting process, the OP called for a total ban on Muslims worldwide.

    Also the alternative to a total ban on all Muslims worldwide is Not an "automatic right to come here". That is an illogical false dichotomy.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  29. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    You should listen closely to what he is saying here without saying Muslim.
    TWEET/VIDEO: Paul: "Maybe we should stop certain countries from sending people here for awhile. It's not like you have a right to move to our country."
    Yes. Listen even closer Kahless. A temporary halt on select countries is Not a call for a blanket worldwide ban on Muslims.
    Again, there is nothing Rand has said that supports what is advocated in the Original Post.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  30. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    It is a fools errand to welcome someone into your home, giving them a key, when they wish to exterminate you through time and slow conquest. An abusive spouse, a thief, or a government entity hell bent on spying and forced compliance.
    This is true Thor, however this is non-sequitor response to my post. You response suggests that the only alternative to a ban on all Muslims worldwide is to have open immigration without vetting. That is irrational. Those are not the only two alternatives.

    It is akin to arguing that either you must ban all immigrants or visitors or else you must import every immigrant and visitor in the entire world. That is an absurd false choice.
    Likewise is the alternative to banning all 2 billion Muslims worldwide is Not to accept every possible Muslim worldwide. It is disappointing to see Thor and other making such ridiculous illogical arguments.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.



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  32. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    [video=youtube;pSPvnFDDQHk]we also defend against a political movement/ideology/aggression - veiled as a religion - that is the antithesis of Freedom and Liberty. If you do not see that, then you are no defender of Freedom and Liberty. But an accomplice to the demise of Freedom and Liberty.
    This is a regurgitated collectivist falsehood.
    With some 2 billion Muslims in the world they are not all running around committing terrorists acts.
    Thor is improperly imputing a small radical subset of Sunni Islam called Wahhabi/Salafi to every individual Muslim worldwide.
    The perpetrators of terrorists acts overwhelmingly belong to Wahhabi/Salafi belief - which includes the various Al Qaeda organizations, ISIS, Mujaheddin/Taliban, etc.
    This Wahhabist are based out of Washington's BFF Saudi Arabia. They are and have been funded, promoted and supported by Saudi Arabia.
    Washington itself helped establish Al Qaeda as a funding network to support and recruit more radicals for its other creation Mujaheddin/Taliban.
    Washington helped establish and arm and fund ISIS for its geopolitical objectives.
    Washington helped spreading the radical ideology.

    When you consider there are 2 billion Muslims in the world, proportionally (and likely in absolute numbers) there are far more Americans involved in terrorists acts (drone assassinations, bombing civilians, invading nations, regime change, creating funding and arming terrorists organizations, etc.). The belief system behind these terrorists acts happens to be the neocon philosophy. It is also the neocons' policies that have been creating, arming, funding and using these Wahhabi/Salafi terror organizations.
    Washington itself and the neocons are a greater "antithesis to Freedom and Liberty."

    The alternative to a total ban on Muslims worldwide does not mean no vetting, no scrutiny and no limitations at all.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  33. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    It is disappointing to see Thor and other making such ridiculous illogical arguments.
    Sorry you are disappointed. Not really. LOL.

    Look, I understand the other side of the argument. Everyone deserves liberty no matter their religion, as to restrict that is infringing upon liberty. But I think the risk in supporting that as a blanket statement is far greater than the reward, when that equally applies to those who follow a belief system that is diametrically opposed to liberty. We have witnessed Europe and what has happened there. We know how muslim countries behave. Why replicated that in as much as it relates to islam and muslims here in the US? I want to preserve freedom and liberty FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO PRESERVE IT AS WELL. Not for those who wish to destroy it, and islam clearly wants to destroy it. Otherwise, if we allow it in the name of Liberty, it is long term, slow, "suicide by stupidity." Our children's children, and probably even our children themselves, will bear the brunt of our failures if we do nothing to protect Liberty (from the goals of islam.)

    Islam is not just a religion, it is a political party/agenda as well. And all these people on here who are OK with giving rights and liberty to members of that political party are basically saying they are OK with supporting everything else opposed to freedom and liberty, like the socialist party and their goals as well. Arming your enemies.

    I too am disappointed with so called liberty lovers on here that don't recognize a threat to liberty when it is slapping them in the face. We can bash the neocons and their agenda, bash the democrats and socialist... Hillary hating is OK... but god forbid we bash a so called "religion" (with political motives) that also wants to destroy Liberty. SMFH over and over....

    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    This is a regurgitated collectivist falsehood.
    With some 2 billion Muslims in the world they are not all running around committing terrorists acts.
    Thor is improperly imputing a small radical subset of Sunni Islam called Wahhabi/Salafi to every individual Muslim worldwide.
    The perpetrators of terrorists acts overwhelmingly belong to Wahhabi/Salafi belief - which includes the various Al Qaeda organizations, ISIS, Mujaheddin/Taliban, etc.
    This Wahhabist are based out of Washington's BFF Saudi Arabia. They are and have been funded, promoted and supported by Saudi Arabia.
    Washington itself helped establish Al Qaeda as a funding network to support and recruit more radicals for its other creation Mujaheddin/Taliban.
    Washington helped establish and arm and fund ISIS for its geopolitical objectives.
    Washington helped spreading the radical ideology.

    When you consider there are 2 billion Muslims in the world, proportionally (and likely in absolute numbers) there are far more Americans involved in terrorists acts (drone assassinations, bombing civilians, invading nations, regime change, creating funding and arming terrorists organizations, etc.). The belief system behind these terrorists acts happens to be the neocon philosophy. It is also the neocons' policies that have been creating, arming, funding and using these Wahhabi/Salafi terror organizations.
    Washington itself and the neocons are a greater "antithesis to Freedom and Liberty."

    The alternative to a total ban on Muslims worldwide does not mean no vetting, no scrutiny and no limitations at all.
    I am still waiting on feedback from the videos I posted, from anyone who bothered to watch any/all of them.... They address your comments above. Get along Charlie's until they become a majority.
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

  34. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    Islam is not just a religion, it is a political party/agenda as well. ...
    Verbose response but again based on false premises. Fails to address at all what was posted in prior comment.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  35. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    Verbose response but again based on false premises. Fails to address at all what was posted in prior comment.
    Not false.

    Still fails to watch and address the videos.
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

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