View Poll Results: The discussion in this thread changed my mind

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  • No, I was always right and I am right now.

    9 100.00%
  • Somewhat.

    0 0%
  • Definitely. I flipped 180.

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  • Other.

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Thread: Trump Steel Tariffs Could Kill Up to 40,000 Auto Jobs, Nearly One-Third of Steel Workforce

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    We have benefited more from global trade than any country in the history of civilization. Your statement is flat out wrong. If anything, we've been enriched.
    BUNK, the elite have profited off of everyone while impoverishing Americans to better enslave them.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Oh so now you are claiming the moral high-ground? I suppose only you can care about Chinese slaves? You are using an argument that every big government goon uses on a regular basis for each tax they want to impose and for each additional freedom they want to strip from us.

    Why do you even want to bother trying to compete with slave labor? It's a pointless endeavor. Why do you insist our working class be subjected to hard labor, low output tasks? Our economy thrives on adding value. Value that is created via capital, investment, technology, science, and specialized labor. We don't need to produce aluminum when we can import it, add in some electrical components, and export it for a 500x return on investment.

    Why is it you are so hyper-focused on the Chinese boogeyman? How much of our steel is imported from China. Somewhere less than 4%?

    Your solution to the immoral Chinese labor practices that you supposedly are so concerned about is for our government to respond via additional immoral actions. Except the difference here is that we can actually control the morality of what our government does. We are not Chinese citizens and have no voice in their political process. You would have our government steal / tax its own citizens and destroy its own wealth all in the name of your morality, achieving nothing in the process.

    Well, I hope you are at least consistent in your belief. Of course this would mean that you are for nation building, preemptive war, the welfare state, higher taxes... pretty much everything we're supposedly against around here.
    This.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    What you don't seem to understand, is that is already happening on a MASSIVE scale - specifically, our country is massively penalized by other governments all around the world.
    So 300 million Americans have the luxury of buying anything we can imagine under the sun, cheaper than you can anywhere else in the world and we're the ones losing in this deal?

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    BUNK, the elite have profited off of everyone while impoverishing Americans to better enslave them.
    But Americans aren't impoverished. All Americans at all income levels are better off economically than ever before. There are fewer in poverty now than there ever have been. For that matter, is there even such a thing as an American in poverty anymore? Nowadays, our definition of "poor" in America has changed so much that our so-called poor have an obesity problem.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 03-12-2018 at 02:42 PM.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    But Americans aren't impoverished. All Americans at all income levels are better off economically than ever before. There are fewer in poverty now than there ever have been. For that matter, is there even such a thing as an American in poverty any more? Nowadays, our definition of "poor" in America has changed so much that our so-called poor have an obesity problem.
    Clearly he has no idea what poverty is.

    I wonder who this mysterious "elite" even is. Anyone have any names?

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    But Americans aren't impoverished. All Americans at all income levels are better off economically than ever before. There are fewer in poverty now than there ever have been. For that matter, is there even such a thing as an American in poverty any more? Nowadays, our definition of "poor" in America has changed so much that our so-called poor have an obesity problem.
    Have you seen the household debt levels lately?
    Or the welfare rolls?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    We have benefited more from global trade than any country in the history of civilization. Your statement is flat out wrong. If anything, we've been enriched.
    Trade is not the zero sum game some seem to think. It is not just one side benefiting. Unless both sides seem some benefit, they will not engage in the transaction. Tariffs are government subsidies to a particular industry paid for by higher prices faced by consumers.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Trade is not the zero sum game some seem to think. It is not just one side benefiting. Unless both sides seem some benefit, they will not engage in the transaction. Tariffs are government subsidies to a particular industry paid for by higher prices faced by consumers.
    This changes nothing.

    Tariffs are taxes. Nothing more, nothing less.



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Clearly he has no idea what poverty is.

    I wonder who this mysterious "elite" even is. Anyone have any names?
    What is "poverty"?

    Poor in this country today have living standards which would have qualified them as wealthy 100 years ago. Not all homes even had indoor plumbing back then.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business...n-1915/462360/

    Here is a closer look at America, one century ago.

    America suffered worse working conditions, in just about every way.

    For men: Work for men was more widespread, more dangerous, worse paid, and, well, just more annoying. According to the 1920 census, 85 percent of men over 14 were in the labor force, compared with just 69 percent for men over 16 today. It was the dawn of scientific management, with factory workers introduced to a brand new office colleague, the time clock. Manufacturing workers averaged 55 hours at work per week, 10 percent more than self-reported averages today. And the jobs were more dangerous: With a fatality rate of 61 deaths per 100,000 workers, the workplace was about 30 times more dangerous than it is today.

    For women: Women were much less likely to work, and in 1915, many were finding employment at elementary and high schools. The reason for women’s early entry into education in the U.S., however, is a little depressing. School boards preferred female teachers not only because they were seen as more loving, but also because they would do what male principals told them while accepting less than a man’s wage.

    For the elderly: For those who did make it to old age (something of a feat back then), Social Security didn’t exist, and in bad times, poverty among the old was so bad that contemporaries wrote of growing old as if it were a dystopia—the “haunting fear in the winter of life.” In 1938 a writer with the American Association for Old-Age Security said "our modern system of industrial production has rendered our lives insecure to the point of despair.” The industrializing economy was no country for old men or women. As families moved off farms into cities and suburbs, it became harder for some old people to find work in factories, which ran on limber sinews and sweat. In the 40 years before 1920, the share of men over 65 working on farms dropped 39 percent.

    America ate lard and cold cereal and paid a lot of money for it.

    It’s hard to imagine many Americans begging to switch places with a 1915 gourmand. Food was not only less varied in 1915, but also considerably more expensive. The typical American spent one-third of his income on food 100 years ago, which is twice today’s share.

    The early 20th century was a golden age of cold-cereal products—Corn Flakes, Quaker Puffed Rice and Puffed Wheat, and Shredded Wheat all came on the market between 1906 and 1912—but on the farm, people enjoyed a heartier meal of eggs and pancakes. Lunch at the office provided a logistical challenge, as in 1915, there existed no such thing as a plastic bag to keep a sandwich fresh. Instead, contemporary cookbooks called for keeping sandwiches moist by "wrapping [them] in a dry towel, covered with a towel wrung out of hot water.”

    The average American ate roughly equivalent amounts of lard and chicken—11.5 pounds and 14 pounds, respectively, per year. One century later, the ratio has, blessedly, widened. Americans eat 57 pounds of chicken, compared to just 1.5 pounds of lard. But Americans, gluttons to their core, have replaced fat’s flavor with something even worse: Their sugar intake has jumped from 88 to 130 pounds in the last 100 years.

    Lots more at link.

    There were all sorts of tech amenities that might seem quotidian today that were rarities in 1915. Thirty percent of the country had a telephone. Less than 20 percent had a stove. Very few people owned a refrigerator, and almost nobody owned a radio. Within 60 years, clothes washers, dryers, air-conditioning, and television sets would all be household staples, but in 1915 they were nowhere to be seen. Instead, the most popular media product of the time might have been the player pianos or the phonograph.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-12-2018 at 02:05 PM.

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What is "poverty"?

    Poor in this country today have living standards which would have qualified them as wealthy 100 years ago. Not all homes even had indoor plumbing back then.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business...n-1915/462360/



    Lots more at link.
    100 years ago most people had no debts and there was no welfare.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    In other words we cannot compete with Chinese slave labor, their complete disregard for the environment, human rights and we should enrich the Chinese Communist party so they pose a greater threat than we already made them through trade.

    To hell with morality, to hell with any effort to bring back more than 55,000 factories and 6,000,000 manufacturing jobs lost due to the trade since Bush I. To hell with Americans, all hail China.

    ^That is effectively the position of the free traders. Disgusting pagan immorality.
    I really can't get past this. I don't know off-hand where you stand, but if I heard this type of thinking from any of the pro-Trump types there is no way I could take it seriously.

    What happened to America First? What happened to MAGA? All of a sudden we're concerned about what other countries are doing? Should we double down and spend another trillion dollars rebuilding the Middle East? After all, their people are enslaved and impoverished. It would be immoral to not tax US citizens to help them.

    Maybe I'm just not smart enough to play 49234D chess, but I'm pretty sure it's considered a GOOD deal when someone offers to give you something for less than it's worth. Typically I wouldn't think of us being the ones who are getting screwed in this scenario, but hey I'm no reality TV star, super businessman extraordinaire... so what do I know.

    So what we have now are Trump supporters arguing that its good to tax US citizens to help the Chinese out. Because we have a moral obligation to support their people at the expense of ours. Go figure.
    Last edited by fcreature; 03-12-2018 at 02:08 PM.

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    I really can't get past this. I don't know off-hand where you stand, but if I heard this type of thinking from any of the pro-Trump types there is no way I could take it seriously.

    What happened to America First? What happened to MAGA? All of a sudden we're concerned about what other countries are doing? Should we double down and spend another trillion dollars rebuilding the Middle East? After all, their people are enslaved and impoverished. It would be immoral to not tax US citizens to help them.

    Maybe I'm just not smart enough to play 49234D chess, but I'm pretty sure it's considered a GOOD deal when someone offers to give you something for less than it's worth. Typically I wouldn't think of us being the ones who are getting screwed in this scenario, but hey I'm no reality TV star so what do I know.

    So what we have now are Trump supporters arguing that its good to tax US citizens to help the Chinese out. Go figure.
    When someone offers to give you something for less than it's worth it is usually a con job.

    The loss of our independence and wealth production capacity isn't worth the temporary profit which is almost entirely taken by the globalist elite anyway.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 03-12-2018 at 02:16 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When someone offers to give you something for less than it's worth it is usually a con job.

    The loss of our independence and wealth production capacity isn't worth the temporary profit which is almost entirely taken by the globalists elite anyway.
    lol

    Informed consent is now a con. Lack of taxes destroys wealth. And what is that about loss of independence?

    What are you smoking?

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump is going to even those out, so there will be less central planning.
    Trumpkin math:

    Central planning + central planning = less central planning

    Statism + statism = less statism

    Freedom - freedom = more freedom
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    BUNK, the elite have profited off of everyone while impoverishing Americans to better enslave them.
    Bunk, fatal radical left ideology tries to level the playing field through big government force.

    Here’s the deal broski. The universe ain’t fair in its distribution of poker hands so in order to make the game as fair as possible we say the government helps NOBODY as that give the most individual opportunity for pursuit of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

    Promoting the understanding and adoption of this idea is how you win.

    Groveling at the masters feet for help and hating those you perceive as privaliged is how you lose. (It’s also disgusting to witness)

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by The Northbreather View Post
    Bunk, fatal radical left ideology tries to level the playing field through big government force.

    Here’s the deal broski. The universe ain’t fair in its distribution of poker hands so in order to make the game as fair as possible we say the government helps NOBODY as that give the most individual opportunity for pursuit of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

    Promoting the understanding and adoption of this idea is how you win.

    Groveling at the masters feet for help and hating those you perceive as privaliged is how you lose. (It’s also disgusting to witness)
    If you can get foreign governments to stop interfering in the marketplace then we can talk.
    Pretending that the elite don't rob and enslave the rest of us will only help them to do so.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    We have benefited more from global trade than any country in the history of civilization.
    When do you think you will be able to retire and enjoy the lavish lifestyle all these trade policies have afforded you?

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If you can get foreign governments to stop interfering in the marketplace then we can talk.
    Pretending that the elite don't rob and enslave the rest of us will only help them to do so.
    Pretending like taxation is going to fix a spending problem is suicidal, foreign governments aren't robbing me, my government is.

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Have you seen the household debt levels lately?
    Or the welfare rolls?
    Sure. And those people on welfare are rich by the standards of past generations.

    Today, thanks in part to our trade with the rest of the world, the average American has to work fewer hours to earn enough to be able to buy more and better stuff than ever before.

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Sure. And those people on welfare are rich by the standards of past generations.

    Today, thanks in part to our trade with the rest of the world, the average American has to work fewer hours to earn enough to be able to buy more and better stuff than ever before.
    One third of their income went just to buying food. That is down to about ten percent.

    Trade (plus technology) has greatly increased our supplies and varieties of foods available while also lowering the costs of them. We don't really have much seasonal variation either- some foods were simply unavailable part of the year you can now get year round.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-12-2018 at 02:53 PM.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Sure. And those people on welfare are rich by the standards of past generations.
    A house N*&%#@ is still a slave

    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Today, thanks in part to our trade with the rest of the world, the average American has to work fewer hours to earn enough to be able to buy more and better stuff than ever before.
    If they can get the work hours.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    A house N*&%#@ is still a slave


    If they can get the work hours.
    Tariffs aren't going to free any slaves. As for work hours, 100 years ago you spend about 20 hours just to earn enough to buy food for the week (55 hour work week, one third of money going to food).

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    One third of their income went just to buying food. That is down to about ten percent.

    Trade (plus technology) has greatly increased our supplies and varieties of foods available while also lowering the costs of them. We don't really have much seasonal variation either- some foods were simply unavailable part of the year you can now get year round.
    Food, clothes, phones that connect to the internet and have more power and better graphics than an PCs in existence 20 years ago, cars, speed boats, vacations, medicine, and on and on with luxuries galore. These are things that blue collar workers afford today. Even home ownership, though it's still below what it was in the 90's is higher than any time before that.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If you can get foreign governments to stop interfering in the marketplace then we can talk.
    Pretending that the elite don't rob and enslave the rest of us will only help them to do so.
    Sigh ok. So you want help from the government that’s controlled by the “elite” to use its power/force enforce policy that will diminish the power of the aforementioned “elite”?

    Mmm ok. I feel like that’s not going to work, again.

    How about reducing the size of government as a solution instead of endorsing it through slave think.



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by The Northbreather View Post
    Sigh ok. So you want help from the government that’s controlled by the “elite” to use its power/force enforce policy that will diminish the power of the aforementioned “elite”?

    Mmm ok. I feel like that’s not going to work, again.

    How about reducing the size of government as a solution instead of endorsing it through slave think.
    Since the government is in charge of determining it's own size (barring an actual revolution) then you must think we can gain control of it in order to make it do what it should, therefore we can make it defend us from foreign governments which is part of it's legitimate function.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Since the government is in charge of determining it's own size (barring an actual revolution) then you must think we can gain control of it in order to make it do what it should, therefore we can make it defend us from foreign governments which is part of it's legitimate function.
    Actually the people are at fault for the size of government, people who ask the government to fix their problems instead of saying leave me the $#@! alone and keep your filthy hands of my money.

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    I really can't get past this. I don't know off-hand where you stand, but if I heard this type of thinking from any of the pro-Trump types there is no way I could take it seriously.

    What happened to America First? What happened to MAGA?
    Your choice of doing the bidding for the Chinese Communist party to the point of putting American companies out of business while thousands of Americans lose their jobs is not only immoral it is repugnant and treasonous.

    Your choice of doing the bidding for the Chinese Communist party so they can continue their horrible human rights record, work people like slaves and destroy the environment so they can succeed at harming American businesses and jobs is immoral and repugnant.

    Protecting American interests over Chinese interests is America first and MAGA.

    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    All of a sudden we're concerned about what other countries are doing?
    Would you financially support your violent neighbour over your own children's businesses so he can beat his wife and kids, then later you and your children?

    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    Should we double down and spend another trillion dollars rebuilding the Middle East?
    I see we are at the typical RPF grasping at straws part of the thread. When no other point can be made just accuse the person of supporting spending another trillion in the Middle East which no one here ever advocates.

    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    After all, their people are enslaved and impoverished. It would be immoral to not tax US citizens to help them.
    You do not fund immorality at home or abroad.

    Quote Originally Posted by fcreature View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's considered a GOOD deal when someone offers to give you something for less than it's worth
    It is not a good deal if it is a national security issue due to reliance on ones enemy that comes with the loss of your manufacturing, massive job losses and growing the welfare state as a result.

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    When someone offers to give you something for less than it's worth it is usually a con job.

    The loss of our independence and wealth production capacity isn't worth the temporary profit which is almost entirely taken by the globalist elite anyway.
    If you don't think buying things from China is a good use of your money, then boycott them. Just leave the rest of us who don't agree alone.

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Protecting American interests over Chinese interests is America first and MAGA.
    @TheTexan couldn't have said it any better.

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    OUR citizens are being impoverished by being forced to compete with slave labor with the playing field tilted in the slaves favor by tariffs and subsidies.
    Wow. So this is just economic illiteracy. It’s no wonder you can’t understand Ron Paul’s message here. You should really try to understand things before commenting on them. I mean, you’re on a Ron Paul forum... do you think there’s any chance that he’s right on this?
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

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