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Thread: Abortion babies and a fathers rights

  1. #1

    Abortion babies and a fathers rights

    There are threads galore about a womans right to abort a fetus.

    There's discussion aplenty about the morality of abortion.

    I thought I'd start a thread about fathers rights.

    Currently a father has no say in whether or not a fetus is brought to term.

    I believe a father should have an equal say with the mother, except of course in rape.

    To give a woman sole decision rights because of a 9 month intrusion ignores the 18 year liability incurred by the father.

    It takes two to create a fetus and in my opinion neither parent should have the right to abort or carry to term without the other parents consent.

    I believe my position on this matter places equal responsibility on both parents and would assure personal responsibility for either a baby or an abortion.

    How do ya'll feel about joint responsibility?



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  3. #2
    The man should have the right to carry the fetus to term in his uterus.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Domalais View Post
    The man should have the right to carry the fetus to term in his uterus.
    That's just a silly red herring.

    I personally am against abortion and I see the huge hypocrisy in the law. If a woman wants to abort (kill, really) her child she can and the man has no say, but if she does decide to let the baby live the man is on the hook for 18 years. Obviously morally he should be on the hook for that child's needs but the law still is very hypocritical and does not respect a man's wishes.

  5. #4
    I think the gov't should stay out of it entirely. It's social engineering.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post
    I think the gov't should stay out of it entirely. It's social engineering.
    I agree with this position.....

    The reason I even started this thread is that as things are now only the government and the woman have any say-so.

    If the government is going to be involved then the father should be afforded "equal" rights.

  7. #6
    I want to first say that I thank you for this thread.

    I am very much pro-life and wish that the law would solve the problem. I DO NOT think a woman has the right to KILL a baby.

    But, if we are going allow the woman to have a right to choose, the man should have equal rights, you are correct.

    I will end with this point: For me personally, I will NEVER marry a woman who is pro-choice. Won't happen.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  8. #7
    Men should not have sex with women who wouldn't see the issue as the OP does. Individual liberty/responsibility, right? And my friends shouldn't let me have sex with any woman who would consider abortion in the first place.
    I'm a moderator, and I'm glad to help. But I'm an individual -- my words come from me. Any idiocy within should reflect on me, not Ron Paul, and not Ron Paul Forums.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    Men should not have sex with women who wouldn't see the issue as the OP does. Individual liberty/responsibility, right? And my friends shouldn't let me have sex with any woman who would consider abortion in the first place.
    "Stuff" has a way of changing mid-stream though.....Even if you're both in agreement on the moral issues when the relationship starts and everything is hunky-dory, many times a pregnancy or loss of a job or the stars not aligning can cause the relationship to fail.

    The way the law stands a father is 100% at the mercy of both the mother and the state with no recourse.

    "If" abortion is going to be legal then both parents should have equal say.........after all they both made the baby.

    Following current law....Isn't it in the "childs best interest" if both parents had to agree on an abortion?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by nayjevin View Post
    Men should not have sex with women who wouldn't see the issue as the OP does. Individual liberty/responsibility, right? And my friends shouldn't let me have sex with any woman who would consider abortion in the first place.
    This is right on. Nothing more to say, really

    If as a true MAN you are so righteous as to not want to abort a fetus you helped create then you should be rightous enough to understand who and whom you are sleeping with. I mean SEX is supposed to be a sacred act, right? So maybe MEN, who do not carry children, should be more careful who we lie down with?

    Lest we look to our brothers and sisters to help us clean up our messes. How is that freedom?

    Plus it's a form of legalism. Are we not believers? Yes, we are. Do we not have faith? Yes, we do. So lets provide grace to those who choose to abort, and you know what. The fathers need that, too

    Let God sort 'em out in the end. Anything else would be unchristian of us.

    I mean do we really want the LAW OF MAN to intercede here. I don't. Judgement is for God and God alone

    And any aborted fetus will see the kingdom of heaven. However those of us who judge and would use what we consider the word of god against others may very well not
    Last edited by Democrat4Paul; 04-13-2012 at 06:01 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Democrat4Paul View Post

    Let God sort 'em out in the end. Anything else would be unchristian of us.

    I mean do we really want the LAW OF MAN to intercede here. I don't. Judgement is for God and God alone

    Let's do a hypothetical situation (one I've seen happen)....

    Girlfriend/wife pulls up pregnant, couple is young and have agreed on a family but reality kicks in a couple months into the pregnancy and the relationship fails (no fault) .........Mother unilaterally and vindictively terminates the pregnancy.

    If you were the father would you want to keep your child? Would you like your voice to be heard when arguing for the babies life?

    Or would you really be cool with as you say, "Letting God sort it out"?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I agree with this position.....

    The reason I even started this thread is that as things are now only the government and the woman have any say-so.

    If the government is going to be involved then the father should be afforded "equal" rights.
    Tough call, and I don't think it's one that the gov't should be able to make--and giving equal "rights" to men only further complicates things (I'm against legalizing gay marriage for similar reasons.)

    Hypothetical situations are interesting though--so if the gov't wasn't involved and abortion wasn't a legal issue, what if you really wanted a child, and the woman you impregnated did not? You have a few options:

    1. Kidnap her and keep her locked away and restrained for about 8 months.
    2. Bribe her--pay her lots of money and if she's poor enough, she may go along with it.
    3. Try to get the state to force her to have your child by law.

    The only option that even seems remotely ethical is #2. So that's what I'll go with.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post
    Tough call, and I don't think it's one that the gov't should be able to make--and giving equal "rights" to men only further complicates things (I'm against legalizing gay marriage for similar reasons.)

    Hypothetical situations are interesting though--so if the gov't wasn't involved and abortion wasn't a legal issue, what if you really wanted a child, and the woman you impregnated did not? You have a few options:

    1. Kidnap her and keep her locked away and restrained for about 8 months.
    2. Bribe her--pay her lots of money and if she's poor enough, she may go along with it.
    3. Try to get the state to force her to have your child by law.

    The only option that even seems remotely ethical is #2. So that's what I'll go with.
    Sign a contract with her before hand.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Sign a contract with her before hand.
    Another good option.

    So as it approaches 2AM and you've got the goggles on some lonely chick in the bar--scrawl some $#@! out on a napkin (legibly, if possible) and say "Heyyyyy baby...I'll do you if (hic!) you sign mah $#@! (hic!)."

    Works every time.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post

    Works every time.
    No, not every time.

    That's when I go fugly.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Democrat4Paul View Post
    This is right on. Nothing more to say, really

    If as a true MAN you are so righteous as to not want to abort a fetus you helped create then you should be rightous enough to understand who and whom you are sleeping with. I mean SEX is supposed to be a sacred act, right? So maybe MEN, who do not carry children, should be more careful who we lie down with?
    Oh, I would beg to differ. The men carry the child for 18 years, if you catch my drift.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  18. #16
    Abortion is a liberty issue. As Dr. Paul rightfully claims, you cannot claim to support liberty and not support the first of all rights, the "right to life". All other considerations, even a woman's right to bodily privacy (the frequent justification for abortion) are overpowered by teh simple fact that abortion is the greatest act of aggression against the weakest opponent. And just as you only have rights until your exercising of those rights causes harm to another, a woman has rights to bodily privacy until she plans to deny the child in her ALL it's inherent human rights.

    That said, the fetus also belongs to the father. It takes two to tango, and unless the woman was raped, he has equal part in the creation of that child. His love and desires are no less equal than the woman's. If she didn't want to have to deal equally and justly with him, then she shouldn't have had sex with him. If either parents do not consent to the abortion, it should be illegal to perform it.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Domalais View Post
    The man should have the right to carry the fetus to term in his uterus.
    I am the spoon.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Abortion is a liberty issue. As Dr. Paul rightfully claims, you cannot claim to support liberty and not support the first of all rights, the "right to life". All other considerations, even a woman's right to bodily privacy (the frequent justification for abortion) are overpowered by teh simple fact that abortion is the greatest act of aggression against the weakest opponent. And just as you only have rights until your exercising of those rights causes harm to another, a woman has rights to bodily privacy until she plans to deny the child in her ALL it's inherent human rights.

    That said, the fetus also belongs to the father. It takes two to tango, and unless the woman was raped, he has equal part in the creation of that child. His love and desires are no less equal than the woman's. If she didn't want to have to deal equally and justly with him, then she shouldn't have had sex with him. If either parents do not consent to the abortion, it should be illegal to perform it.
    Right, but then we come back to Kluge's scenario. Do you tie the woman down, then, and force her to undergo dangerous physiological changes (and psychological ones, too) ultimately resulting in birth? Do you force her to contribute financially afterwards to the child, akin to how child support currently works to force men to pay for children? What happens then?

    Even if a man were somehow to offer to pay for 100% of the hospital bills, prenatal care, and to raise the child alone (mom terminates parental rights), I just can't arrive at a satisfactory answer as to how you compel someone to go through pregnancy and birth for a child they do not want.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  22. #19
    Easy. You don't have sex, you wear a condom, or you get fixed. Any will work.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    Right, but then we come back to Kluge's scenario. Do you tie the woman down, then, and force her to undergo dangerous physiological changes (and psychological ones, too) ultimately resulting in birth? Do you force her to contribute financially afterwards to the child, akin to how child support currently works to force men to pay for children? What happens then?

    Even if a man were somehow to offer to pay for 100% of the hospital bills, prenatal care, and to raise the child alone (mom terminates parental rights), I just can't arrive at a satisfactory answer as to how you compel someone to go through pregnancy and birth for a child they do not want.

    This should all be the consideration BEFORE she has sex. If she gets pregnant then all other considerations fall to the fact that she is talking about premeditated killing of a child here. So no, she doesn't get to just have an abortion because it is otherwise inconvenient to carry the child or because we have to further define our laws. You start at protecting rights then evolve a system of law that does that best. But you don't give up teh protection of the rights of people just because it is difficult.

    If you're asking my personal opinion, yes a woman should have to pay child support until the child is at least 18 and living on their own as men currently do. Even if she doesn't have anything to do with the child and the guy is raising the kid.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    This should all be the consideration BEFORE she has sex. If she gets pregnant then all other considerations fall to the fact that she is talking about premeditated killing of a child here. So no, she doesn't get to just have an abortion because it is otherwise inconvenient to carry the child or because we have to further define our laws. You start at protecting rights then evolve a system of law that does that best. But you don't give up teh protection of the rights of people just because it is difficult.

    If you're asking my personal opinion, yes a woman should have to pay child support until the child is at least 18 and living on their own as men currently do. Even if she doesn't have anything to do with the child and the guy is raising the kid.
    Anthropologically.

    Women desire a masculine man during ovulation.And a more feminine man otherwise, to raise the child.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Anthropologically.

    Women desire a masculine man during ovulation.And a more feminine man otherwise, to raise the child.
    Isn't it bizarre trying to force certain behaviors that aren't natural? But that's pretty much all that gov't does.

    By the way, I need a babysitter--you available?
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post
    Isn't it bizarre trying to force certain behaviors that aren't natural? But that's pretty much all that gov't does.

    By the way, I need a babysitter--you available?
    In about 13 years, yes.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    In about 13 years, yes.
    Quit being a creepy creep.
    Well, I got Rand started on his campaign (just search around here to see). I advised Thomas Massie before he ran for Congress. I am currently advising 2 liberty campaigns for the state legislature. I ran the war-room and won Minnesota for Ron Paul a few weeks back. There are other things I'm probably forgetting.
    Yet I can't afford $200 to go to a seminar--Matt Collins



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kluge View Post
    Quit being a creepy creep.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    Easy. You don't have sex, you wear a condom, or you get fixed. Any will work.
    Yes, but this is a bit like teaching abstinence in school, isn't it?

    Telling a society where people still do get pregnant (and condoms and even "fixing" don't always work) that they should of thought of things beforehand, does not change the fact that the scenario I discussed still will happen.

    It would appear the answer is to force the woman to term, because she should have thought of it beforehand, but also to force her to pay child support until the child is 18.

    Meanwhile, if the father does not want the child, but the mother does, he must also be forced to pay child support until the child is 18?

    It seems like a lot of laws involved there, folks, and the word "force" used over and over.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    Yes, but this is a bit like teaching abstinence in school, isn't it?

    Telling a society where people still do get pregnant (and condoms and even "fixing" don't always work) that they should of thought of things beforehand, does not change the fact that the scenario I discussed still will happen.

    It would appear the answer is to force the woman to term, because she should have thought of it beforehand, but also to force her to pay child support until the child is 18.

    Meanwhile, if the father does not want the child, but the mother does, he must also be forced to pay child support until the child is 18?

    It seems like a lot of laws involved there, folks, and the word "force" used over and over.
    You're right.........

    Is there an answer ?

    Please notice I'm not pushing for "more laws", I only believe that a father should have equal rights and I don't know;
    1) If the majority believe he is entitled to those rights?
    2) How to equalize "The Law" if he is entitled?

    I've studied custody laws and not so much abortion law and decisions relevant to "equal parenting" are still in a state of flux. For centuries the mother/child were viewed as the mans property, now the pendulum has swung the opposite direction and a woman has sole discretion.

    Fathers are clawing their way back into their childrens legal well being but at the heart of every family court battle is a child.....And here's where things get even more murky, "a child" under law is out of the womb so there are two battles in two separate courts...."The fetus" argument has been held in federal court and the "child" arguments are held in the bowels of County Court.

    Sooo,
    Is there a solution that would assure equal legal footing? Can the solution be implemented without force?

  32. #28
    It's just sad what our society is coming to.

    The fact that the people who have controlled the debate have brainwashed women to believe this is about THEM, rather than life.

    Really sad.
    "I am, therefore I'll think" - Ayn Rand

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by No Free Beer View Post
    It's just sad what our society is coming to.

    The fact that the people who have controlled the debate have brainwashed women to believe this is about THEM, rather than life.

    Really sad.
    None of that answers my questions.

    Ideally, it would be solved just as people said. I don't believe in having sex with anyone whose views I don't know for certain on this and various other issues. If you can't discuss pregnancy, STDs, and other expectations with someone, then I'm not sure why on earth you'd want to share something far more intimate than a conversation. It cheapens everyone involved. That's just my opinion, though, and my earlier question still stands: when the father wants the child, and the mother does not, what can be done to force her to carry to term?

    There have been a few responses, but it is also sad that rather than address that, you prefer to tsk tsk at me for asking. :>
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  34. #30
    For the county prosecutor to charge her with murder of my child.
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    when the father wants the child, and the mother does not, what can be done to force her to carry to term?

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