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Thread: Tell Me Without Telling Me You're Stealing From Me

  1. #1

    Tell Me Without Telling Me You're Stealing From Me

    This ought to be a fun thread....

    Electric Vehicle Startup Rivian Hits $90 Billion Valuation In Biggest IPO Since Facebook
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/sergeik...h=48d4f3563864


    Ever wonder where all that newly issued money goes??? Feel free to add your own.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  3. #2
    Last edited by pcosmar; 11-10-2021 at 10:34 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #3
    Well I would have hoped after the Nikola thing that people would realize this sector is attracting charlatans and would cool off a bit.

    But on another note....

    I'd like someone who understands these things to tell me why they're making this engineering decision. Pete's video mentions in the first minute that this truck has 835 horsepower.
    Other trucks I've seen specs on boast that much - in the 800-1000HP range.

    If this sounds ridiculous, it's because it is... and I'm pretty sure the reason why they do this is because these vehicles are all transmission-less.

    If you take into consideration that a 250-300hp gas engine truck has a 1st gear ratio roughly between 2.5 and 3.8, that means yeah, that truck is basically putting 800-1000hp into getting it moving from a stop.

    So my question is..... WHY? Doesn't it seem like transmissions are a pretty well solved problem?
    Why eliminate them and replace them with a ridiculously overpowered motor?
    The bigger the motor gets the more copper is involved, and at some point doesn't the economics kind of lean in favor of just gearing it?
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Well I would have hoped after the Nikola thing that people would realize this sector is attracting charlatans and would cool off a bit.

    But on another note....

    I'd like someone who understands these things to tell me why they're making this engineering decision. Pete's video mentions in the first minute that this truck has 835 horsepower.
    Other trucks I've seen specs on boast that much - in the 800-1000HP range.

    If this sounds ridiculous, it's because it is... and I'm pretty sure the reason why they do this is because these vehicles are all transmission-less.

    If you take into consideration that a 250-300hp gas engine truck has a 1st gear ratio roughly between 2.5 and 3.8, that means yeah, that truck is basically putting 800-1000hp into getting it moving from a stop.

    So my question is..... WHY? Doesn't it seem like transmissions are a pretty well solved problem?
    Why eliminate them and replace them with a ridiculously overpowered motor?
    The bigger the motor gets the more copper is involved, and at some point doesn't the economics kind of lean in favor of just gearing it?
    Personally I would use a Trans,,and some do..
    The Torque of an Electric Motor is the real difference ..

    The Rivian has 4 motors.. In the hubs. as opposed to other configurations, and there are several.

    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    If this sounds ridiculous, it's because it is... and I'm pretty sure the reason why they do this is because these vehicles are all transmission-less.
    No. They aren't all transmission-less, just the roomiest and least overweight. Electric motors make tons of torque right from a standstill. Automatic transmissions weigh hundreds of unnecessary pounds. Diesel-electric locomotives use a generator on the diesel and motors on the axles because no clutch can withstand the torque those diesels produce. So, electric drive has been under intense development for a hundred years, with even more development than straight electric locomotives would have gotten just because the market's bigger.

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    If you take into consideration that a 250-300hp gas engine truck has a 1st gear ratio roughly between 2.5 and 3.8, that means yeah, that truck is basically putting 800-1000hp into getting it moving from a stop.
    Huh? Low gears don't multiply horsepower. They just enable a gas engine to turn fast enough to make the power it makes. And no, nothing makes horsepower at a standstill. Torque, yes. Horsepower is a measure of how fast force (torque is rotational force) is cranked out. How fast is the torque being made at a red light? It isn't. You use torque, and torque alone, to get into motion. Then the question of how fast that torque is replaced with more torque becomes an actual question.

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    So my question is..... WHY? Doesn't it seem like transmissions are a pretty well solved problem?
    Why eliminate them and replace them with a ridiculously overpowered motor?
    The bigger the motor gets the more copper is involved, and at some point doesn't the economics kind of lean in favor of just gearing it?
    Electric motors are overpriced compared to automatic transmissions? Take it another step. This has a motor at each wheel. All four of them. Now, let's ask the question again. Are electric motors overpriced and overweight, and do they and electric cables take up too much space, compared to a transmission, a transfer case, two driveshafts, and two differentials?

    Remember, those four motors average one fourth the output of one motor. Individually, they aren't as big, heavy or expensive. In aggregate, the transfer case, drive shafts and differentials they replace must be factored in.

    No, these things make ridiculous power because that's a byproduct of the ridiculous torque they need to handle a load. Long stroke, undersquare gas engines make the most torque, but have trouble turning fast enough to make bags of power. Short stroke oversquare engines sacrifice torque for rpms, so they deliver what torque they deliver more often per second. That turns less torque into more power. Electric motors don't require that tradeoff. If they make enough torque, they make plenty of power. Besides, rednecks read the numbers and start overlooking the fact that the rick of wood they're after had better be within thirty miles, or they'll never get it home.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-11-2021 at 07:37 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Diesel-electric locomotives use a generator on the diesel and motors on the axles because no clutch can withstand the torque those diesels produce.
    Gotta pick a nit with you here...marine applications routinely use a clutch and reverse gear setups for diesels up to about 15000 hp.

    I've personally operated a bunch of them in all different configurations, from 20 cylinder EMDs to 36 series CATs to slow speed MANs.

    The mid size vessel fleet is changing over to Z drives for maneuverability and DP operations. These can have internal clutches or be direct drive diesel/electric.

    All large ships are direct shaft drive with reverse being achieved by stopping and reversing the main engine, whether it be slow speed diesel, electric, steam turbine or even reciprocating steam.

    The only outlier to that are large water jet drive vessels, they use a reverse "scoop" just like beta range reversers on an aircraft, that simply vector thrust backwards.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Gotta pick a nit with you here...marine applications routinely use a clutch and reverse gear setups for diesels up to about 15000 hp.
    Yeah, a clutch does fine attached to a fluid coupling.

    No torque converter involved, you say? Where's the prop? Connected to something solid, so you have to slip the clutch to get into motion without stalling? Can the diesel turn the prop at anchor, or tied to a dock, without stalling? So when does the clutch transfer the irresistible torque directly to the immovable object without slip? Talk about fluid drive! The prop is in water.

    Got more nits up your sleeve? The exterminator is in.

    Sorry about the threadjack, Captain
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-11-2021 at 07:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  9. #8
    It definitely looks more like a truck than that thing tesla put out.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Yeah, a clutch does fine attached to a fluid coupling.

    No torque converter involved, you say? Where's the prop? Connected to something solid, so you have to slip the clutch to get into motion without stalling? Can the diesel turn the prop at anchor, or tied to a dock, without stalling? So when does the clutch transfer the irresistible torque directly to the immovable object without slip? Talk about fluid drive! The prop is in water.

    Got more nits up your sleeve? The exterminator is in.

    Sorry about the threadjack, Captain
    Semi trucks don't have a clutch?

    I'm just making conversation, but excuse me for threadjacking.

    You're the Winner.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Semi trucks don't have a clutch?
    You'd be surprised how few do, these days. Multi-gear heavy-duty automatics are now very common.

    That said, yes trucks had clutches. And those clutches had problems. Yet semi trucks seldom weigh more than forty tons. Loaded trains regularly exceed ten thousand tons these days, and even a hundred years ago they often exceeded a thousand tons. How much do your ships weigh? More than the sixty thousand ton Yamato class?

    By the way, the Europeans are nearly as fond of diesel-hydraulic torque converter locomotives as North American railroads are leary of them.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-11-2021 at 07:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  13. #11
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Huh? Low gears don't multiply horsepower. They just enable a gas engine to turn fast enough to make the power it makes.
    Ok the thing I was missing is that torque is manipulable by gearing but HP is not. That changes the thought process I had with pairing my Parks planer to a treadmill motor, but it's already mounted and it works.

    I went and looked at a bunch of different electric motor torque curves and they generally seem pretty constant throughout speed range, which would explain it.


    Electric motors are overpriced compared to automatic transmissions?
    Nobody said anything about automatic transmissions.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I went and looked at a bunch of different electric motor torque curves and they generally seem pretty constant throughout speed range, which would explain it.
    It does. It also explains the inflated horsepower. With no gears, you don't make peak horsepower until you're already doing top speed. Yeah, nice for maintaining speed, but useless for acceleration. But, you know, it looks impressive in the ad copy.

    So, yes, you're right. This is because the transmission-less gear ratio is fixed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  16. #14
    Wanna try a SCREWY one?

    If I go to a bank and "borrow" money, that money does not exist. They legally (not morally) have the ability to create NEW CURRENCY out of NOTHING. (That is the KEY difference between MONEY and CURRENCY, gold is money because I cant borrow gold into existence out of thin air) They have $#@!ed with the Fractional Reserve Policies so the 10 - 1 ratio pretty much no longer applies. So their only restriction that they were supposed to have 10% of that money in reserve no longer holds a bank back. The ONLY thing that gives that CURRENCY any value is a borrowers promise to repay the loan, which effectively DESTROYS CURRENCY.

    With that all said, if I BORROW CURRENCY, it really is getting its purchasing power by STEALING VALUE FROM YOUR CURRENCY. That is supposed to be offset by "promise to repay" which is supposed to destroy currency and "prevent hyperinflation". So since people borrow money all the time, and many times those values are unpaid (you know, someone DIES), even if a bank repossesses something like a house or a car, that currency is still "out there", thus, we are expected to blame each other for the problems that borrowing money and not repaying it causes instead of looking up at the engineers of the FIAT CURRENCY SYSTEM.

    Now with that said also, "Borrowing" is now literally "STEALING".

    So back to the original point of the post. When new CURRENCY is created, it has the SAME PURCHASING POWER as existing money (behold the power of FIAT) UNTIL it has been spent. Thats THEFT. Sadly, I think maybe like one in a hundred people actually understand that.

    Of course for the fools that "go to school" to study "finances", a very strange thing happens. If you go to school to learn how to read and write, you come out with some sort of knowledge of how to read and write. If you go to school to learn math, you come out with some sort of understanding about how math and numbers work. Same applies to language, history, physics, chemistry, underwater basket weaving, etc. You know, the LEGIT education stuff. BUT when you study ECONOMICS, the weird thing that happens here is the MORE you "learn" the LESS you actually understand. Why? The money manipulators use their powers of money manipulation to control what information is presented in those classes, and they DO NOT WANT anyone to understand that their very system of FIAT CURRENCY by its very nature is $#@!ing THEFT.

    "I sincerely believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity... is but swindling futurity on a large scale." ~ Thomas Jefferson

    "The refusal of King George III to allow the colonies to operate an honest money system, which freed the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, was probably the prime cause of the revolution." ~ Benjamin Franklin
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    With no gears, you don't make peak horsepower until you're already doing top speed. Yeah, nice for maintaining speed, but useless for acceleration. But, you know, it looks impressive in the ad copy.

    So, yes, you're right. This is because the transmission-less gear ratio is fixed.
    The reason why I'm bringing it up is because of those treadmill motors I've been playing with. They have amazing numbers - 2.75hp for something as big as your two fists put together. Even if you do really crusty rectification and rewind a giant microwave oven transformer to step it down to the DC voltage required, it's still less bulk than a 2hp induction motor, and with variable speed possible.

    However, if it's developing 2.75hp at 6700rpm, I need to get it up to about 1k rpm before I can't stop it with my hands. They're pretty useless at low speeds.
    I realize the truck probably has BLDCs in the wheels as opposed to brushed DC but without having played with BLDCs I assumed the power curve is similar. And I'm not advocating having a giant 30 speed semi transmission: it seems to me even having just two gears would be good enough to reduce the motor requirements.

    The other thing about the hub motors is I'm convinced we're in for some nasty surprises there. People are using them in skateboards regularly, but they're not putting 2-300k miles on them. And I'm pretty sure gasoline motors are where they are for more reasons than convenience. I'm pretty sure car designers put some thought into keeping road debris, curbs, animals, and other cars from causing catastrophic damage to the engine or its components. But the thought process for hub motors was, hey, we can save a few bucks by putting the thing that powers the vehicle in the same place as the thing that stops the vehicle and by the way all that stuff is now much more likely to interact with things that we can't foresee.

    The other other thing is, there's all this reinventing of the wheel when nobody has explained why they can't take a regular old Toyota Corolla or Hyundai Accent, replace the 4-banger with a comparatively small electric motor, replace the gas tank with a battery pack, and hit a price point under $25k. All the tech seems to be there already but they're intentionally going off into the "it has to get 0-60 in under 3 seconds" weeds.

    And that kind of shows us at a glance how much about the environment this all is.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    The other thing about the hub motors is I'm convinced we're in for some nasty surprises there. People are using them in skateboards regularly, but they're not putting 2-300k miles on them. And I'm pretty sure gasoline motors are where they are for more reasons than convenience. I'm pretty sure car designers put some thought into keeping road debris, curbs, animals, and other cars from causing catastrophic damage to the engine or its components. But the thought process for hub motors was, hey, we can save a few bucks by putting the thing that powers the vehicle in the same place as the thing that stops the vehicle and by the way all that stuff is now much more likely to interact with things that we can't foresee.
    They're well known, thanks to locomotive experience. And still relevant, though hub motors aren't actually involved in these applications. There's a reason I didn't mention axles/half shafts and CV joints among the components eliminated. Motors are generally mounted inboard, to reduce shocks to them, place them in better cooling air, and reduce unsprung weight. The last is important to both ride and handling. Heavy wheel-brake-hub assemblies have too much momentum; to stay in contact with the road the wheel must quickly react to bumps. Less mass means quicker reactions.

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    The other other thing is, there's all this reinventing of the wheel when nobody has explained why they can't take a regular old Toyota Corolla or Hyundai Accent, replace the 4-banger with a comparatively small electric motor, replace the gas tank with a battery pack, and hit a price point under $25k. All the tech seems to be there already but they're intentionally going off into the "it has to get 0-60 in under 3 seconds" weeds.

    And that kind of shows us at a glance how much about the environment this all is.
    Well, it's certainly not about the environment. It's about natural gas being more plentiful and cheaper to refine than crude, and about limiting freedom to travel. You're right.

    The 0-60 in three seconds thing you touched on yourself. Yes, I stand by my bags of torque from a standstill comment, but also agree with your observations that electric motors aren't at full torque until they're turning. Like the ridiculous power only available at max speed, making it useless for acceleration, ridiculous torque is a side effect of just adequate torque to get away from a side street stop sign and into modern city traffic. So there's that.

    But there's also the desire to make these overweight, expensive boxes of self-immolating rare earth minerals attractive to people with more money than brains. No, an electric econobox can't hit the price point yet with literally a thousand pounds of nickel and cadmium, or whatever. So it has to be wazoo, to the point of silliness.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-11-2021 at 10:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    It definitely looks more like a truck than that thing tesla put out.
    Bollinger is the Truck looking Truck.

    https://bollingermotors.com/
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  21. #18
    Well, this thread certainly went off the rails quick....

    This wasn't really about the car... This was about an enormous amount of newly-printed money going to a company with zero track record, but lots of hype. The thread was supposed to be a collection of headlines that show how the wealth transfer is happening. Your dollars are buying fewer things, meanwhile, these speculative endeavors are creating billionaires.

    Oh well...
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Well, this thread certainly went off the rails quick....

    This wasn't really about the car... This was about an enormous amount of newly-printed money going to a company with zero track record, but lots of hype. The thread was supposed to be a collection of headlines that show how the wealth transfer is happening. Your dollars are buying fewer things, meanwhile, these speculative endeavors are creating billionaires.

    Oh well...
    Yeah, sorry. Especially since that's a great idea.

    But I didn't start this hijack. Yeah, I followed through all the way to Cuba. But I didn't start it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Well, this thread certainly went off the rails quick....

    This wasn't really about the car... This was about an enormous amount of newly-printed money going to a company with zero track record, but lots of hype. The thread was supposed to be a collection of headlines that show how the wealth transfer is happening. Your dollars are buying fewer things, meanwhile, these speculative endeavors are creating billionaires.

    Oh well...
    One sentence in the OP explains that.

    There is no way, in any rational world, where an IPO would generate that much money, $90 billion...c'mon man, on such an abysmal track record, unless it was fake fiat dollars betting on government fatwas.

    Which is the only reason any of this exists in the first place: government mandates. EVs are just as cumbersome and technically hamstrung as they were 100 years ago when they first tried and failed. But our oppressors have made it clear cars will be just what they started out as, a rich man's plaything and hobby and a way to generate billions in smoke and mirror "investing".

    Your days of cheap, unlimited, private mobility are over, prole.

    Now, shut up and get on the bus. Be sure not to resist the mugger-raper sitting behind you, because that's racist, and don't slip in the puddle of puke left behind by the junkie who just spiked up in the next row.

    ETA - yeah apologies about the threadjack, gear heads can't help but ratchet jaw about this stuff...I'll take my leave.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 11-11-2021 at 10:56 AM.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Well, this thread certainly went off the rails quick....

    This wasn't really about the car... This was about an enormous amount of newly-printed money going to a company with zero track record, but lots of hype. The thread was supposed to be a collection of headlines that show how the wealth transfer is happening. Your dollars are buying fewer things, meanwhile, these speculative endeavors are creating billionaires.

    Oh well...
    Is this really speculative? Asking honestly because, at least there's a product involved with this.

    When I think of "speculative" I think of people who buy $100 worth of some new electronic currency valued at 1/2000th of a cent, and cash out a few years later with thousands (and thousands) of dollars. I have a lot of disdain for those people because from an economic standpoint it makes no sense. No product is moved, nothing is manufactured, no labor involved, and it is very, very hype-dependent. When the hype dies down, a lot of people are left holding the bag and don't even have any assets to write off.

    Now, I'm not a fan of these electric vehicles by any means and certainly not at $70,000+ dollars for a light duty truck, and when they throw in the self-driving features (which is coming I'm sure) they can set it on fire and roll it down a hill and I'll gladly trade it for a coupe DeVille.

    But, a lot of people are into this stuff. And this is actually something that can be manufactured and lead to productivity, versus just being some numbers punched in a computer somewhere.

    Though, I will reserve skepticism that a new EV manufacturer is quite possibly getting a gov't kickback somewhere under this new Greta-green-fanatical era we find ourselves in. It gets harder to have the moral fortitude to not buy into it though, when you see others getting rich off gimmicks.

    EDIT: I guess one way to tell would be to see the number of shareholders who bought in. If it's just a few very rich people then yeah it's probably an insider-trading thing, and those people will probably buy the politicians necessary to remove competition.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 11-11-2021 at 11:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Bollinger is the Truck looking Truck.

    https://bollingermotors.com/
    IMO that looks like a jeep. Still more believable than cyber-tru—thing.

    I do like that bollinger actually has rims that don't light up like the circus is in town, which is apparently a mandatory feature on future vehicle designs.



    Mercedes douche-mobile.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 11-11-2021 at 11:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    IMO that looks like a jeep. Still more believable than cyber-tru—thing.

    I do like that bollinger actually has rims that don't light up like the circus is in town, which is apparently a mandatory feature on future vehicle designs.



    Mercedes douche-mobile.
    Remember the first Firebird?
    Concept cars are seldom built for production.

    https://www.mbusa.com/en/future-vehicles/eqs-sedan
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Well, this thread certainly went off the rails quick....

    This wasn't really about the car... This was about an enormous amount of newly-printed money going to a company with zero track record, but lots of hype. The thread was supposed to be a collection of headlines that show how the wealth transfer is happening. Your dollars are buying fewer things, meanwhile, these speculative endeavors are creating billionaires.

    Oh well...
    That company was operating and had Investors before that Newly Printed Money was ever printed.

    And like everyone else they have to fight the obstacles in the way. Both Government and Industry Monopolies.

    They just went Public,,(stock trading), as opposed to Private investors.

    and other than the same Tax Breaks that any electric can get,, I know of no other tax dollars involved.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Well, this thread certainly went off the rails quick....

    This wasn't really about the car... This was about an enormous amount of newly-printed money going to a company with zero track record, but lots of hype. The thread was supposed to be a collection of headlines that show how the wealth transfer is happening. Your dollars are buying fewer things, meanwhile, these speculative endeavors are creating billionaires.

    Oh well...
    I'm on a different rail, sure, but not off them entirely.

    The point I'm driving to here (pun intended) is that besides all the self-driving wank, beyond the range and recharging limitations, the technology sucks worse than we realize.

    All these other EV startups are different from Tesla because in the end, Elon actually created actual wealth. Tesla isn't a car company as much as it is a technology proving ground. None of these other companies can claim that so they're not going to $1k per share any time soon. We can talk about how Elon got subsidies and grifted the US taxpayer but in the end he ended up doing something worthwhile with the money. I'm not advocating that at all - I just hope I'm helping to point out that these other EV startups aren't even going to do that. They're just going to evaporate.

    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Is this really speculative? Asking honestly because, at least there's a product involved with this.

    When I think of "speculative" I think of people who buy $100 worth of some new electronic currency valued at 1/2000th of a cent, and cash out a few years later with thousands (and thousands) of dollars. I have a lot of disdain for those people because from an economic standpoint it makes no sense. No product is moved, nothing is manufactured, no labor involved, and it is very, very hype-dependent. When the hype dies down, a lot of people are left holding the bag and don't even have any assets to write off.

    Now, I'm not a fan of these electric vehicles by any means and certainly not at $70,000+ dollars for a light duty truck, and when they throw in the self-driving features (which is coming I'm sure) they can set it on fire and roll it down a hill and I'll gladly trade it for a coupe DeVille.

    But, a lot of people are into this stuff. And this is actually something that can be manufactured and lead to productivity, versus just being some numbers punched in a computer somewhere.
    The other thing I was kind of driving at is that no, there isn't really a product here.

    These EV startups making $70k trucks that can't drive to the next state are essentially trying to compete in the same space as high end cars.
    The high-end car companies don't come within two orders of magnitude of the revenue of companies like Toyota, GM, or Ford - and the big companies are NOT making their money from $70,000 automobiles. They're making their money from cars that cost $40k or less.

    The only thing that made Tesla work is they went the Rolls-Royce route: have a $#@!-ton of IP and components to produce, and make cars as a side goof.

    The only hope that other EV companies have to actually survive is to make cars that a) people like nobody's hero, AF, and I actually want and b) cost an amount that people like nobody's hero, AF, and I would actually consider.


    To put it another way - it's not just that they're stealing our money to start a company that's unproven. It's that the company is doomed before they even produce a single unit. It's a flawed strategy.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    That company was operating and had Investors before that Newly Printed Money was ever printed.

    And like everyone else they have to fight the obstacles in the way. Both Government and Industry Monopolies.

    They just went Public,,(stock trading), as opposed to Private investors.

    and other than the same Tax Breaks that any electric can get,, I know of no other tax dollars involved.
    No, it's not "tax" dollars. It's "institutional investors". They're the first to get the new Fed money that they've been "printing" left and right. It's why the stock market has been hitting constant records. "Taxation" is such a antiquated term for how they take your money.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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