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Thread: What is the complete list of requirements to avoid the Lake Of Fire?

  1. #1

    What is the complete list of requirements to avoid the Lake Of Fire?

    I am not optimistic about the current state of our world, and have recently thought about if there could actually be a Heaven. Also, last weekend I did a shockingly realistic version of asking Jesus to accept me:

    • What is the complete list of requirements to avoid the Lake Of Fire?
    • Not the 10 Commandments, but...
    • Exactly how do you make certain the message gets through?


    Thank you
    No one here wanted to be the Billionaire.



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  3. #2
    Matthew 25.

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Vidual View Post
    I am not optimistic about the current state of our world, and have recently thought about if there could actually be a Heaven. Also, last weekend I did a shockingly realistic version of asking Jesus to accept me:

    • What is the complete list of requirements to avoid the Lake Of Fire?
    • Not the 10 Commandments, but...
    • Exactly how do you make certain the message gets through?


    Thank you
    A relationship with your Creator and Jesus Christ as your advocate.


    Judgement is different than most think...

    the rules were just guides anyway.

    Jesus left One Law,, and that is to Love.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  5. #4
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  6. #5
    New Speedway Boogie



    I've seen things get out of hand,,

    seen my own judgement too..
    Last edited by pcosmar; 12-18-2021 at 07:31 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  7. #6
    Luke 10:
    25
    And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

    29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 And the next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”


    Pcosmar and I disagree quite a bit on the topic of Christianity - he represents the "no formal organization at all" camp and I'm representing the most traditional and regimented Christianity there is (Orthodoxy).
    But he and I agree 1000% on this point:


    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    A relationship with your Creator and Jesus Christ as your advocate.
    The second you step into Christianity it will seem fractured into a thousand pieces, each one vying for position as the correct truth.
    But that is one thing Christians have in common. We all want a relationship with Christ.
    We talk to Him regularly and try to figure out what He's saying to us.

    All who are trying to follow the Way, no matter how, will generally stop our internal feuds to agree on that and some other points, particularly when presented with someone who is new. We will put it aside to help you get closer to Jesus however we can.

    The Lord is infinite in His mercy. He will take you if you ask him. He will also ask you to do things for Him. They will not all be easy. But He will only give you what you can take on.

    He has on many occasions made instant saints of people who professed their faith only minutes after hearing about Him.

    Regarding a "List of requirements":
    Matthew 6
    25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life?[g] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.



    For now, and always, do not worry.
    Talk to whom you can.
    Listen.
    Read the Scriptures.
    Learn.
    And above all, pray.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    [snip]



    For now, and always, do not worry.
    Talk to whom you can.
    Listen.
    Read the Scriptures.
    Learn.
    And above all, pray.
    I would recommend a book,, "A Pilgrims Progress" by John Bunyan

    aside from scripture,, I think it a good guide.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Vidual View Post
    I am not optimistic about the current state of our world, and have recently thought about if there could actually be a Heaven. Also, last weekend I did a shockingly realistic version of asking Jesus to accept me:

    • What is the complete list of requirements to avoid the Lake Of Fire?
    • Not the 10 Commandments, but...
    • Exactly how do you make certain the message gets through?


    Thank you
    Repent of your sins to God so HE can blot them out of the judgment book, and give you a clean slate. ETA: Acts 3:19 - Isaiah 43:25
    Try to live your life according to the ten commandments.
    Study the Bible (as much as possible) so that you can truly understand God's WORD. (II Timothy 2:15)
    A good Bible study is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gd6zrrC-M0k
    Last edited by donnay; 12-21-2021 at 07:56 AM.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  11. #9
    What is the complete list of requirements to avoid the Lake Of Fire?
    Not the 10 Commandments, but...
    Exactly how do you make certain the message gets through?
    Excellent questions! People have been asking this for 2,000 years, and the answer is the same as it was back then:

    The [Philippian] jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

    They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household. Acts 16:16-40
    There you have it: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved. That is the complete list of requirements.

    Of course, there is a lot of details packed into that, and I think that's what you're really trying to ask. "What are all the details of believing in Jesus?" Well, no one can ever list all the details because God is too immense to fit into a written description. But we can point out some of the highlights:

    - God's purpose or goal in salvation is to transform you -- heart and soul -- from the fleshly image (life as the world says it ought to be lived) into the image of Jesus (living life according to the example set by Jesus.) So, salvation is about becoming like Jesus. This might be obvious but I'm pointing it out because there are so many details in the Bible and in the things that people teach about salvation, that it is easy to get lost in the trees and miss the forest.

    - Faith in Jesus is Jesus-focused... it's all about him, not you. That's a big part of what salvation is about; turning our innate, narcissistic self-focus away from ourselves and towards Jesus.

    - Faith and repentance from sin go hand-in-hand. To believe in Jesus is to reject sin. Jesus everywhere condemned sin; openly, publicly and objectively. A life of faith is a life that consists in turning away from sin. Since the primary reason we sin is because we are following our desires, repentance necessarily entails self-denial. This is one of the reasons that the life of faith is difficult.

    - Change starts with you (me). God doesn't need morality-police, he's got that fully handled on his own. That is why each of us has a conscience. Judging has always been the besetting sin of the church and arguably the devil's #1 method for infiltrating the church. Rather, God wants you to allow the Holy Spirit to eradicate sin from within you, which is called sanctification. Sanctification is pictured by the ritual cleansing of the temple instruments performed by the priests in the Old Testament. This is how and why we are to allow ourselves to be cleansed from sin, so that we can be participants in God's holy work in the world.

    - Faith is first-and-foremost about how we live and speak, and secondarily about our doctrinal opinions. We must have a right heart attitude because sin proceeds from the heart (Matthew 15:16-20), but your doctrinal opinions are bound to change as you grow and mature. It is easy to use the pursuit of right doctrine as a substitute for real heart change. Doctrine is important, but it's more important that you get right with God and that starts with concrete changes in how you live and speak. This is what we mean by turning away from sin (fleeing sin, repenting of sin).

    - Jesus became human so that man might become unified with God -- nothing in the New Testament is an impossible standard to which we can only mourn our failures in attaining. In fact, this attitude is an attitude of unbelief, not an attitude of holiness. The New Testament teaches time and again that we are to be holy and that God, who has unlimited power, will indeed accomplish this within us if we simply trust him to do it. "Oh, so you're saying that Christians are perfect." Well, yes, but not in the way that people think. By the word "perfect", people mean "can't make a mistake or have a regret." That's obviously not what we're talking about. Rather, the Bible teaches us that God's will for the believer is the complete eradication of sin. Think of it like the difference between a ship which only sails towards the shore but is occasionally blown further away, versus a ship that sails in all directions. We are to be like the ship that sails only in one direction. That is what the eradication of sin in this world looks like. Complete perfection (arrival at shore) will only be achieved in the next world, but God's will for us is to eradicate all sin from our lives and just focus on Jesus (getting to shore), not wandering around the ocean sailing in every random direction.

    God is the perfect Father and God loves us. He wants no one to perish. Throw yourself on his love and you have nothing to worry about. The flames of hell are reserved for those who make themselves the enemies of God. And while that should sober our minds in respect to the dread reality of the spiritual war of our Age, God is not a God of dread and terror. Simply run to him and believe, that is enough. The rest is details and you just have to work it out with God, day-by-day. That's called "the Christian walk"...

    ---



    Last edited by ClaytonB; 12-19-2021 at 12:43 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  12. #10
    Thank you everyone for the thoughtful answers.
    No one here wanted to be the Billionaire.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Vidual View Post
    Thank you everyone for the thoughtful answers.
    Always pray to God for guidance and direction and for knowledge and wisdom. HE will show you the way, but you have to ask.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Vidual View Post
    I am not optimistic about the current state of our world, and have recently thought about if there could actually be a Heaven. Also, last weekend I did a shockingly realistic version of asking Jesus to accept me:

    • What is the complete list of requirements to avoid the Lake Of Fire?
    • Not the 10 Commandments, but...
    • Exactly how do you make certain the message gets through?


    Thank you
    Total sinlessness.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Total sinlessness.
    Impossible. We are all sinners in this world.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Impossible. We are all sinners in this world.
    Looks like we're going to need God to provide us with some kind of righteousness apart from the Law then.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Looks like we're going to need God to provide us with some kind of righteousness apart from the Law then.
    If you are speaking of God's Law (The Ten Commandments), they are still in effect today, just as the day HE gave them to Moses. When Jesus Christ was crucified, He did not change one jot or tittle of the LAW.

    Matthew 5:18
    “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    If you are speaking of God's Law (The Ten Commandments), they are still in effect today, just as the day HE gave them to Moses. When Jesus Christ was crucified, He did not change one jot or tittle of the LAW.

    Matthew 5:18
    “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
    And, if one is to attain righteousness by that same Law, then we are right back to what I said, which is that the standard the Law holds them to is perfect sinlessness. And what you said was correct, according to the Bible, all are doomed to fail to meet that standard. "For by the deeds of the Law, no flesh will be justified in his sight." (Romans 3:20).
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 12-21-2021 at 09:19 AM.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    And, if one is to attain righteousness by that same Law, then we are right back to what I said, which is that the standard the Law holds them to is perfect sinlessness. And what you said was correct, according to the Bible, all are doomed to fail to meet that standard. "For by the deeds of the Law, no flesh will be justified in his sight." (Romans 3:20).
    The only man who was totally and utterly perfect was Jesus Christ. He took the stripes and we get the healing (Isaiah 53:5), so long as we repent dally for our sins, in His name. If that wasn't true then there would have been no reason for Jesus to be born a man and walk on this earth teaching other mortals.

    God is the God of Love not hate. Although there are many things he hates (Proverbs 6:16-19).
    Last edited by donnay; 12-21-2021 at 10:26 AM.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    The only man who was totally and utterly perfect was Jesus Christ. He took the stripes and we get the healing (Isaiah 53:5).
    And there it is. The righteousness that we can have apart from the Law.

    Romans 3:20 is followed by Romans 3:21. That standard of sinless perfection was met by Christ and through him is met by all who are united with him in his death and resurrection by faith. No requirement of the Law remains to be met by those who have this righteousness of Christ, because the penalty of death for disobedience has already been paid at the cross.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    And there it is. The righteousness that we can have apart from the Law.

    Romans 3:20 is followed by Romans 3:21. That standard of sinless perfection was met by Christ and through him is met by all who are united with him in his death and resurrection by faith. No requirement of the Law remains to be met by those who have this righteousness of Christ, because the penalty of death for disobedience has already been paid at the cross.

    Which meabs the LAW is still the law an as a Christian you use it as a guideline. We are born in the flesh as sinners. You must study the WORD with understanding and know the context by which it is meant. This is where you must ask for guidance and direction, and knowledge and WISDOM (Proverbs 9:10).

    II Timothy 2:15
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    Last edited by donnay; 12-21-2021 at 11:27 AM.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    And there it is. The righteousness that we can have apart from the Law.

    Romans 3:20 is followed by Romans 3:21. That standard of sinless perfection was met by Christ and through him is met by all who are united with him in his death and resurrection by faith. No requirement of the Law remains to be met by those who have this righteousness of Christ, because the penalty of death for disobedience has already been paid at the cross.
    So wrote Paul, after Jesus had ascended, to a group of rebels in the Roman Empire, at a time when possessing a parchment that wasn't phrased particularly carefully was liable to get people killed.

    Meanwhile, Matthew 25 quotes Jesus directly describing the judgment day. In that telling, He finds a way to easily see if a person really is open to God's love the way a person of genuine faith surely must be.

    When St. Paul pontificates and confuses me, I tell him to shut up and I listen to Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So wrote Paul, after Jesus had ascended, to a group of rebels in the Roman Empire, at a time when possessing a parchment that wasn't phrased particularly carefully was liable to get people killed.

    Meanwhile, Matthew 25 quotes Jesus directly describing the judgment day. In that telling, He finds a way to easily see if a person really is open to God's love the way a person of genuine faith surely must be.

    When St. Paul pontificates and confuses me, I tell him to shut up and I listen to Jesus.
    You realize that Matthew also wrote that after Jesus had ascended, and probably after Paul wrote Romans too.

    Why would I throw away the teachings of Jesus that are conveyed to me by Paul, and then accept the ones that are conveyed to me in the Gospel of Matthew?

    But also, note that Matthew 25 and Romans both teach the same thing. In Matthew 25, Jesus makes avoidance of the Lake of Fire conditional on how one receives his brethren, who are those who bring the Gospel (cf. Matt 12:49).
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 12-21-2021 at 10:50 AM.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Why would I throw away the teachings of Jesus that are conveyed to me by Paul, and then accept the ones that are conveyed to me in the Gospel of Matthew?
    I don't know. Why would you? You wouldn't do it on my account.

    Doesn't change the fact that Matthew sought out the tale, listened to several versions of it, and tried to find the facts and quotes at the heart of it.

    Paul, meanwhile, was one man struggling to digest it himself, writing letters to people he had had conversations with (often answering questions that would put him in context, had the questions been preserved with the answers), who were sometimes in such delicate situations that he feared for their safety if he spoke freely.

    Please note I'm not saying this to argue for the statement which that bizarre straw man you made of me just said. I'm just sayin'.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 12-21-2021 at 11:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I don't know. Why would you? You wouldn't do it on my account.
    I wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that Matthew sought out the tale, listened to several versions of it, and tried to find the facts and quotes at the heart of it.
    So did Paul. The Book of Romans is all about the Gospel from beginning to end. The Book of Matthew is a presentation of the very same Gospel that Paul preached and explained in the Book of Romans.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Please note I'm not saying this to argue for the statement which that bizarre straw man you made of me just said. I'm just sayin'.
    I don't think it was a strawman. I'm glad to see you walk it back. But I think that your intent was to put the Gospel of Matthew against Paul's epistles, as though Matthew provides us with the teaching of Jesus and Paul's epistles only provide us with his own human opinions.
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 12-21-2021 at 11:28 AM.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    I don't think it was a strawman. I'm glad to see you walk it back. But I think that your intent was to put the Gospel of Matthew against Paul's epistles, as though Matthew provides us with the teaching of Jesus and Paul's epistles only provide us with his own human opinions.
    You place high value on Paul, clearly, and it sounds like that's because he studied right at the feet of the Teacher. Fair enough. But if I don't self-identify as your strawman, you missed the mark.

    You think my intent... That and six bucks will get you a cuppa Starbucks. Two can play, you know. I think your intent is to be a pain in the ass.

    Read what you wrote. One thing provides Jesus' teachings, the other Paul's interpretations of them? Am I not allowed to believe that, except without the "only"-equipped absolute that wags use to turn "the sky is blue" into a lie? Shall we go through both books in a vintage King James and count how many verses of each are printed in red?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 12-21-2021 at 11:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You place high value on Paul
    I place the same value on Matthew that I place on Paul, which is the value I place on those whom Christ appointed as apostles to proclaim his Gospel to the Church. As a disciple of Jesus, I have no right to reject his words, whether those be conveyed to me via Matthew or Paul.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Read what you wrote. One thing provides Jesus' teachings, the other Paul's interpretations of them?
    No. Both Matthew and Paul provide Jesus's teachings. And if you are going to say that one of them is only an interpretation of those teachings, then by the same token you should say the other one is as well.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Which meabs the LAW is still the law an as a Christian you use it as a guideline. We are born in the flesh as sinners. You must study the WORD with understanding and know the context by which it is meant. This is where you must ask for guidance and direction, and knowledge and WISDOM (Proverbs 9:10).

    II Timothy 2:15
    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
    The law consists in 613 commands, not 10; that includes not trimming your beard in certain ways, not mixing fibers in your clothing, and so on. The letter brings death, "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6) So, the point and purpose of Jesus' death was to destroy the power of the law of Moses over us, which could only accuse and condemn. Instead, he gives us the Spirit who leads us into life through regeneration. The leading of the Spirit, unlike the law, is interactive and this is why we speak of a living relationship with God. The Spirit is the down-payment on the coming world where we will once again dwell with God, which was always the purpose of salvation. You cannot obey your way to heaven. Of course, we are to live a life of obedience, but we do this from love and gratitude to God, not in order to save ourselves. It is God who saves.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    No. Both Matthew and Paul provide Jesus's teachings. And if you are going to say that one of them is only an interpretation of those teachings, then by the same token you should say the other one is as well.
    No, not even a little bit. There are honest attempts at recording facts through any source available, and there are honest interpretations. You're coming awfully close to idol worship. Paul was not born of God and a virgin.

    You're saying because reporters are seldom eyewitnesses, and must acquire sources, the news page has never been different from the OP/ED page. Matthew is very clearly trying to report, and Paul just as clearly is not. I admit the "news" page is all op/ed now, but I remember when those pages differed quite a bit. I don't care what titles the Roman Catholic Church conveyed on the guy, Paul is not the Son of God.

    Paul may have been closer to the source. But there is something he did not do for us, which Matthew later did. He did not try to write down as many of Jesus' own words as possible. Could he have done it better? Undoubtedly, had he done it. Does this give Paul's best interpretations as much weight as our Savior speaking?

    I ask you again: Which book used to get more verses printed in red?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 12-21-2021 at 12:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    No, not even a little bit. There are honest attempts at recording facts through any source available, and there are honest interpretations. You're coming awfully close to idol worship. Paul was not born of God and a virgin.
    Neither was Matthew. But both wrote the words of Jesus, which Jesus revealed not only when he walked the earth, but also from Heaven after his ascension.

    Paul said, "If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord." (1 Cor 14:37).

    This statement is as true of the Book of Romans as it is of Matthew.

    Paul may have been closer to the source. But there is something he did not do for us, which Matthew later did. He did not try to write down as many of Jesus' own words as possible.


    Neither one of them wrote "
    as many of Jesus' own words as possible," nor did they claim to. But both of them wrote the words of Jesus.

    And just as important as the words that Jesus spoke to us through the writings of Matthew, Paul, and other authors of divinely inspired scriptures, were the works that Jesus performed, chiefly his death for our sins and resurrection, about which Jesus instructs us through the writings of Paul, Matthew, and those same others.
    Last edited by Invisible Man; 12-21-2021 at 02:16 PM.
    There is nothing to fear from globalism, free trade and a single worldwide currency, but a globalism where free trade is competitively subsidized by each nation, a continuous trade war is dictated by the WTO, and the single currency is pure fiat, fear is justified. That type of globalism is destined to collapse into economic despair, inflationism and protectionism and managed by resurgent militant nationalism.
    Ron Paul
    Congressional Record (March 13, 2001)

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Invisible Man View Post
    Neither was Matthew. But both wrote the words of Jesus, which Jesus revealed not only when he walked the earth, but also from Heaven after his ascension.
    Oh, here we go. Paul was auto-writing, just a dictating machine. Because he said so. Just like John Smith, and Brigham Young thereafter. Just like Rev. Moon.

    Okay. Fine. Just for fun, I'll stipulate that St. Paul was a bona fide, old testament style prophet. So?

    If a prophet confuses me, I'll turn to the Lord for clarification. Say that's a bad plan, I dare you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

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