Texan landowners don't want their land stolen for Trump's wall

[brushfire]

Yeah. Make everybody poor.

No, Tim - strip government of its ability to dish out welfare, and reduce its operating costs, and thus the tax burden. Anyone wonder why aren't these illegals migrating to Canada? Canada is doing quite well. Why didnt illegal immigration increase during the 2008/2009 crisis? Because it was a colder couple of years? Chicago has lots of illegals, and it gets cold around here, every year. Is Canada not an exceptional country in the eyes of God?

What makes this such a difficult issue for some? Is it that this is a racially charged issue? Perhaps it is the perceived threat to our sovereignty (some would easily argue that it is a legitimate threat to our sovereignty)? But this isn't by accident, and those concerns will not go away with a wall. As I've said many times before, these people overcome much bigger obstacles than walls, and it doesnt stop them today.

Not to change the topic, but another charged issue was the gay marriage thing... So many people where tied up in why a man could not be married to another man, or why such a thing would be permitted... The question people should have been asking is WTF does the government have to do with marriage? Why is it necessary to apply for a license, and why is common-law marriage even possible? Why does the government get to decide who gets what slice of the pie when someone divorces? What does tax burden have to do with marital status? - yup, boat missed entirely on that one. Gays marry, and government is still involved - win win, right?

...and so, as I see it, the boat is being missed on the illegal alien issue too. Sorry to make people endure my babbling on the topic... Best of luck with your wall, and catching that political pendulum. Always know that if Trump cant get it done, its those evil democrats that got in his way.

[Superfluous Man]

Anyone wonder why aren't these illegals migrating to Canada?

Very good question. Canada has fairly strict and effective immigration restrictions. They manage to keep illegal immigration pretty low without a border wall. How do they do it? With more serious controls over what goes on inside the border, such as making it more difficult for employers to hire undocumented immigrants there than it is in the US. Immigration restrictionists in Canada must laugh at the fetish their American counterparts have for something as ineffective as a border wall, while they neglect to do what is known to be the things that more effectively curtail illegal immigration.

[nikcers]

I just figured it out. Treat the border wall like a sidewalk. The property owner has to pay -
Could legislate a new alphabet organization. The BMA. Border Management Authority.

The key to border security is more legislation! Taxes! Fines! Even Imprisonment!

Why should someone in Kansas have to pay for a wall or fence in Texas or California. Those people own their property! Have them care for it and secure it!

Forced HOA for everyone who refused to sell their land to the government where they have to pay fees that would make them want to sell the land and a much lower cost than they would normally because they can't afford the fees this is brilliant.

[dude58677]

That’s why Private Property is so essential to Liberty... it’s none of your business what he/she/somebody else does.

Once Private Property is forfeited to the Fed, you are no longer a 60% slave, but a 100% owned one.

I don’t support the wall only the debate over the wall as long as it keeps the shutdown going.

[juleswin]

So there is a real invasion underway with real armies not illegal immigrants trying to invade the country. Now, can a landowner use private ownership rational to deny the military access to their land in order to defend the country? My guess is the answer would a no. So in a country where taxes are collected without your approval, and other govt decrees are made and executed, is it really that unreasonable to ask that a landowner at the border give up a piece of their land for the "good" of the country.

Sadly, this is what eminent domain is meant for and this is exactly how it is supposed to be used. Not making way for some private onwer to build a parking lot. They would lose some of their land, they will get compensated and everything would be OK. Among the many things I hate about govt, this particular one is near the bottom of the list. The people spoke through the election of DJT that they wanted a border wall. I don't care for it but this is clearly what they asked for.

Democracy(repuplican form), sometimes you like it and other times it drives you nuts.

[juleswin]

OK, so let's use private funds (I think that "Build The Wall go fund me is up to 30 or 40 million so far) to buy the deeded rights of way along which to build said wall.

Problem solved, right?

That time has passed. For one, there is no way you can convince everyone to sell plus there is nothing stopping other private citizens from buying up the land and refusing to sell. Heck, I could pay 10x the money and buy em now only to try and sell it for 100x the price when you and your private group tries to buy it from me. What I am trying to say is that the owner are going to bid up the price so much that it would make it very hard for you to get all the pieces you need without making al those owners zillionaires.

The only feasable way to get your hand on those lands needed is to use the forceful power of govt. It sucks but this is the name of the game.

[Brian4Liberty]

Clearly, the problem is having the border follow a river.

We can eliminate the need for domestic eminent domain, and also lower the cost of the wall by making it straighter with one easy step. Somewhat like Trump’s campaign slogan of making Mexico pay for it, we can just move the border to the other side of the Rio Grande. Annex the land necessary to make it a straight line, avoiding natural obstacles. The owners of the land on the Mexican side remain the owners, and make ‘em ‘Mericans too! It’s win/win.

[Swordsmyth]

No, Tim - strip government of its ability to dish out welfare, and reduce its operating costs, and thus the tax burden. Anyone wonder why aren't these illegals migrating to Canada? Canada is doing quite well. Why didnt illegal immigration increase during the 2008/2009 crisis? Because it was a colder couple of years? Chicago has lots of illegals, and it gets cold around here, every year. Is Canada not an exceptional country in the eyes of God?

What makes this such a difficult issue for some? Is it that this is a racially charged issue? Perhaps it is the perceived threat to our sovereignty (some would easily argue that it is a legitimate threat to our sovereignty)? But this isn't by accident, and those concerns will not go away with a wall. As I've said many times before, these people overcome much bigger obstacles than walls, and it doesnt stop them today.

Not to change the topic, but another charged issue was the gay marriage thing... So many people where tied up in why a man could not be married to another man, or why such a thing would be permitted... The question people should have been asking is WTF does the government have to do with marriage? Why is it necessary to apply for a license, and why is common-law marriage even possible? Why does the government get to decide who gets what slice of the pie when someone divorces? What does tax burden have to do with marital status? - yup, boat missed entirely on that one. Gays marry, and government is still involved - win win, right?

...and so, as I see it, the boat is being missed on the illegal alien issue too. Sorry to make people endure my babbling on the topic... Best of luck with your wall, and catching that political pendulum. Always know that if Trump cant get it done, its those evil democrats that got in his way.

Very good question. Canada has fairly strict and effective immigration restrictions. They manage to keep illegal immigration pretty low without a border wall. How do they do it? With more serious controls over what goes on inside the border, such as making it more difficult for employers to hire undocumented immigrants there than it is in the US. Immigration restrictionists in Canada must laugh at the fetish their American counterparts have for something as ineffective as a border wall, while they neglect to do what is known to be the things that more effectively curtail illegal immigration.

Canada has a border with Mexico?

Why should they keep on going north to Canada when they can stop in the US take all of our jobs and vote us into communism?

When they have turned the US into Venezuela they will move on to Canada.

[Swordsmyth]

Clearly, the problem is having the border follow a river.

We can eliminate the need for domestic eminent domain, and also lower the cost of the wall by making it straighter with one easy step. Somewhat like Trump’s campaign slogan of making Mexico pay for it, we can just move the border to the other side of the Rio Grande. Annex the land necessary to make it a straight line, avoiding natural obstacles. The owners of the land on the Mexican side remain the owners, and make ‘em ‘Mericans too! It’s win/win.

Or we could just multiply the patrols many times over and set up many observation posts.

[Champ]

Immigration: the topic that split the libertarian movement in half.

[nikcers]

Who cares if the democrats only want to raise taxes on the top percentage of wages, I am not in the top percentage of wages.

[Champ]

Any non pro-wall/anti-wall measured responses on this issue out there?

Would love to see some non-patronizing non-snarky comments coming from either side to start making some sense of this debate. But perhaps we have already reached the point of no return and snark and straw mans have already become the dominant form of polemics here.

[Swordsmyth]

Immigration: the topic that split the libertarian movement in half.

Immigration: The topic where half of the libertarian movement took the side of the globalists and communists and said that liberty meant allowing them to impose tyranny.

[PAF]

Immigration: the topic that split the libertarian movement in half.

It’s more like the ‘12 campaign, where we vetted those who were actually us from those in the other camp claiming to be. History does have a way of repeating... but it helps to know who the true ones are.

[Swordsmyth]

Any non pro-wall/anti-wall measured responses on this issue out there?

Would love to see some non-patronizing non-snarky comments coming from either side to start making some sense of this debate. But perhaps we have already reached the point of no return and snark and straw mans have already become the dominant form of polemics here.

I have always said that I didn't support the wall and wanted a massive increase in patrols instead but the open borders crowd just calls me a NAZI anyway.

[nikcers]

Any non pro-wall/anti-wall measured responses on this issue out there?

Would love to see some non-patronizing non-snarky comments coming from either side to start making some sense of this debate. But perhaps we have already reached the point of no return and snark and straw mans have already become the dominant form of polemics here.

this guy does pretty good break downs

[Swordsmyth]

It’s more like the ‘12 campaign, where we vetted those who were actually us from those in the other camp claiming to be. History does have a way of repeating... but it helps to know who the true ones are.

It's too bad that Ron invited those of us who actually believe in border security into his movement.

He could have gotten half the vote he got and been twice as pure.

[PAF]

Immigration: The topic where half of the libertarian movement took the side of the globalists and communists and said that liberty meant allowing them to impose tyranny.

Giving Fed control, by force if necessary, of Private and Public Land is indeed a Globalist Agenda.

[Swordsmyth]

Giving Fed control, by force if necessary, of Private and Public Land is indeed a Globalist Agenda.

LOL

The globalists want wide open borders so they can flood us with communists and repeal the Constitution, if the globalists wanted a wall we would have gotten one with the PATRIOT act, every globalists in the world is pushing for a borderless world with a communist world government and you are on their side.

Would you support increased patrols and limited immigration?

[Brian4Liberty]

Any non pro-wall/anti-wall measured responses on this issue out there?

Would love to see some non-patronizing non-snarky comments coming from either side to start making some sense of this debate. But perhaps we have already reached the point of no return and snark and straw mans have already become the dominant form of polemics here.

Probably because the issue has been beaten to death over and over for ten years on this forum.

[Schifference]

[Brian4Liberty]

Immigration: the topic that split the libertarian movement in half.

It’s all about agendas and priorities. And most people just inherit and preach the current dogma of their group. Democrats have done a 180 on the issue in recent decades, so you know there is no principle involved there. It actually contradicts and makes worse many of their other issues, like wages, jobs, housing and carbon footprint (climate change).

Not only that, there is always an agenda, often hidden. Everyone has a vested interest in their position. They believe it will benefit them in some way. Even those who want a moratorium on immigration want that because they believe it is in their best interest, although they tend to be the most open and honest about their agenda.

Businesses (and GOP) want cheap and pliable labor. Democrats want voters and new people who will depend upon them and government for support. Many people want to bring over more of their family or what they think of as “their people”. Others with vested interests consider themselves global in nature. Religious and political groups are the biggest in that category. Religions don’t want borders that will hinder the expansion of their religion. They believe that new immigrants are ripe for conversion, especially if they are aided in their immigration. Political ideologies, like religious ones, also want to convert, and being global in nature, they often want to convert foreign lands to their ideology, often by force.

Look to the hidden agenda...

[PAF]

LOL

The globalists want wide open borders so they can flood us with communists and repeal the Constitution, if the globalists wanted a wall we would have gotten one with the PATRIOT act, every globalists in the world is pushing for a borderless world with a communist world government and you are on their side.

Would you support increased patrols and limited immigration?

Undocumented immigrants do not legislate law, they aren’t even eligible for most govt. programs. The criminal lobbyists who sign UN agreements at the WH pass laws which violate all people’s rights.

[axiomata]

OK, so let's use private funds (I think that "Build The Wall go fund me is up to 30 or 40 million so far) to buy the deeded rights of way along which to build said wall.

Problem solved, right?

An acceptable use of private funds and property.

[Schifference]

[PAF]

An acceptable use of private funds and property.

Gang mentality, gofundme to take what does not belong to you. Perhaps me and a few of my friends should gofundme and kick you out your property - with a signed piece of paper, of course.

[Swordsmyth]

Undocumented immigrants do not legislate law, they aren’t even eligible for most govt. programs. The criminal lobbyists who sign UN agreements at the WH pass laws which violate all people’s rights.

They vote for the people who want to take away all of my rights and turn the US into a communist country.
They also get welfare through fruad.

I'm not going to waste my time.
Control of the border and immigration is a government issue that affects every citizen and it can't be left to individual land owners to decide that they want to let in an unlimited number of communists to empower those who would completely destroy my liberty.

Rights are a group issue because they depend on the rest of the people around you respecting them, in order to protect my rights I have a right to say who gets to join my group based on whether allowing them to join will cost me my rights.

[PAF]

They vote for the people who want to take away all of my rights and turn the US into a communist country.
They also get welfare through fruad.


I'm not going to waste my time.

Rights are a group issue because they depend on the rest of the people

Me neither. You support democracy, not individual liberty. I still feel I may have met you before when I busted you for attempting to sabotage the delegates, or perhaps it’s just a coincidence based upon your ridiculous rhetoric on this forum.

[Stratovarious]

It isn't?

Really ?

What is it about? Is this guy illegally collaborating with the invaders?

I don't like eminent domain, but I can't imagine buying land on the border and thinking that there would never be a fence or a wall built.. and when it is, they get a big cash payment and better protection of their private property. For free.. really doesn't sound so horrible.

I also would be willing to bet the vast majority of landowners would prefer a wall or fence be built, unless they are getting payoffs from the cartels and smugglers.. which may be the case here. Could also be that he is a Democrat and this is an ideological thing as well, since apparently money is not the primary driver.

Wouldn't surprise me if the media is reaching out to the tiny minority of landowners who have deals setup with the cartels..

He's looking for a trillion, 200 billion , and $1000 to cover the cost of replanting his pot plants.

[Swordsmyth]

Me neither. You support democracy, not individual liberty. I still feel I may have met you before when I busted you for attempting to sabotage the delegates, or perhaps it’s just a coincidence based upon your ridiculous rhetoric on this forum.

When you are losing the argument you resort to insults and partial quotes.

You leftists are all the same.

I support the preservation of liberty, you support the invaders who want to take away my liberty.