Critical Thoughts About This Border Wall "Crisis"

[PAF]

Every time there is a "crisis" it costs us dearly in terms of freedom and dollars. And even though this has been repeated over and over, time and again, the people still do not learn.

Immigration and The Wall.

I cannot seem to find hard numbers. DHS has some data and projections, MIT uses words such as "could", WaPo and others speculate. But what is interesting is that for years immigration numbers have been on the DECLINE - up until the mid-term elections.

As far as immigrants, and Americans, they are human beings. I would rather continue to spread liberty by living it and teaching it, than to "force" my will upon others. Welfare will not end overnight. Neither will immigrants coming in. And certainly not the multi-generational welfare recipients who I have a big issue with.


I do not isolate issues and problems, because as I have learned they are all pieces of one large puzzle.

Here is what I know:

1. Government is corrupt. It is not concerned about you or me, taxation or the Bill of Rights. It invades and conquers. It exists merely to represent and support the corporatists, whose lobbies are more than typically the ones who write "laws".

2. Patriot Act, TSA, NSA, DHS, etc. And boy are they raking it in on my tax dime.

3. Just before the mid-terms, an immigrant "crisis" emerged - out of nowhere. Interesting that USMCA was being promoted which forces "unionization". Think about that. Forced unionization to upset an economy combined with a wall.

4. TSA announced the domestic roadmap, which is as we speak, underway.

5. Biometric Identification already in progress (eVerify, Delta, TSA, Passports, etc).

6. Bump Stock ban. And, states are forging ahead legislating their own laws to regulate arms.


If you knew me personally, I am as conservative as you will find. I absolutely reject any form of Welfare - it must end.

But I am seeing a different picture than some of you here. Because most bases are covered which I outline above, what is really left? LAND.

Trump has utilized Eminent Domain not only in the U.S., but overseas as well. He openly admits that he supports it.

Both the Kelo case and Trump’s efforts to benefit from eminent domain exemplify a longstanding pattern under which that power is used to take land away from the political weak and transfer it to influential private interests. In the long run, as cities like Detroit have learned, such assaults on property rights undermine development far more than they promote it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.be47c6b7640a

Of course the business owners were expendable. Other than that, the entire project was going to be “free.” It didn’t take long for the whole deal to unravel, but it perfectly illustrated Trump’s style and attitude toward property rights. https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...-what-he-wants

In this fight for liberty and freedom, this intellectual battle, I cannot even consider building or funding a Wall. Yes, immigrants, like many Americans in our country, take some form of welfare. But as I think about this, why in the world would I compound anti-liberty initiatives by forcing my will on innocent property/business owners when I am fighting this out of hand government from infringing upon MY rights?

As Walter Block stated, and I have always felt this way - what gives this government the sole right to control public land by way of BLM, or any other agency? We could discuss Bundy and other cases again, but those cases have already been made.

Public land, the right to homestead. Private property rights, essential to liberty.

This Wall will do nothing to stop welfare. The government has no intention whatsoever in ending any welfare handouts, on either side. The Wall will, however, take public and private property from the rightful owners.

Remember the agenda (21). This is why, imo, this "crisis" was "suddenly" created, after years of immigration decline. Who better than Magnate Trump, now a "R", to make it happen, either by force or "voluntarily". Except (even via gofundme) there is nothing voluntary about it

As far as the "border" goes, I truly believe that TPTB believe this will be an easy sell to the American people, only to set precedence for more to come. Domestic TSA blueprint is to control all state borders and will need land for that as well, at EVERY junction across this country. Highways, bi-ways, back roads and dirt roads.

[PAF]

Bump for exposure.

[Ender]

Pretty much my POV- including the fact that the wall will be used more to keep us in than to keep them out.

[angelatc]

I suspect immigration numbers were on the decline because the economy was stalled out. Now that we see wages rising again, we'll see more illegal immigration.

[Origanalist]

As far as the "border" goes, I truly believe that TPTB believe this will be an easy sell to the American people, only to set precedence for more to come. Domestic TSA blueprint is to control all state borders and will need land for that as well, at EVERY junction across this country. Highways, bi-ways, back roads and dirt roads.

At least we will know where the beaners are.

[PAF]

I suspect immigration numbers were on the decline because the economy was stalled out. Now that we see wages rising again, we'll see more illegal immigration.

I do not want to derail the topic of the elimination of public and private land which is essential to liberty, but in reference to “illegal”:

I am not able to find “illegal” in the Constitution, Bill of Rights.

Are you suggesting that people should be “documented”?, thereby allowing much easier access to programs and Welfare, when going down to the office to “sign up” for such benefits?

Does this imply that a database should be had on individuals, recorded by the state, Fed or otherwise? If so, to expedite such searches, should biometrics be utilized in this technological era?

What is your view on the natural Bill of Rights, such as 2nd, 4th and 5th Amendments? Americans only? All people? Other?

Are you advocating that everybody “must” pay their “fare share”, IRS federal income tax etc, otherwise enroll in a prison-industrial-complex?

Undocumented people do pay taxes when they buy gum, groceries, fuel, anytime they walk into a store. Should they be mandated to likewise fund MIC, TSA, NSA, and other alphabet agencies that we in the liberty movement are screaming to eliminate?

I believe that if anybody, American or foreign, commits a crime against another or their property, they should have their day in court. Otherwise, if no crime has been committed, F Off, because what I do is my business and nobody else’s, especially not the government.

I am just trying to understand this term “illegal”, from a liberty perspective.

[Brian4Liberty]

The root problem is that all levels of government, with a wink and a nod, do not truly enforce any laws related to immigration and eligibility for government benefits.

That being the case, expensive measures that infringe upon liberty such as real ID or a new wall will not solve the problem. But they will increase government budgets and power, and give Trump, Pelosi and Schumer a highly charged political distraction.

[angelatc]

I am just trying to understand this term “illegal”

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/illegal

adjective

• forbidden by law or statute.
• contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.:

Hope that helps.

[PAF]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/illegal

[/LIST]

Hope that helps.

I did not need “help” concerning the dictionary definition. Thanks for confirming your stance on “liberty”.

[angelatc]

I did not need “help” concerning the dictionary definition. Thanks for confirming your stance on “liberty”.

My stance was more about economics.

[PAF]

My stance was more about economics.

My questions were precisely related to economics.

What many do not understand is that full adherence to the Bill of Rights would equate to billions upon billions upon billions saved, economically speaking of course.

[angelatc]

My questions were precisely related to economics.

What many do not understand is that full adherence to the Bill of Rights would equate to billions upon billions upon billions saved, economically speaking of course.

LOL at the "What many do not understand...." All we need to do is educate people, #AmIRite?

You bore me with the 2007-era immigration drama. There's no way to support a welfare state and have open borders. There's no political support for dismantling the welfare state. We can banter philosophy back and forth like pot-smoking college students and absolutely nothing will change.

I'm out - you can have the last word.

[Swordsmyth]

LOL at the "What many do not understand...." All we need to do is educate people, #AmIRite?

You bore me with the 2007-era immigration drama. There's no way to support a welfare state and have open borders. There's no political support for dismantling the welfare state. We can banter philosophy back and forth like pot-smoking college students and absolutely nothing will change.

I'm out - you can have the last word.

We can't even educate the natives fast enough, how are we supposed to educate millions of new socialists?

[RJB]

how are we supposed to educate millions of new socialists?

We are not. That's why people like Zippy and some of the others want them here.

[Swordsmyth]

We are not. That's why people like Zippy and some of the others want them here.

Exactly, but PAF claims that open borders will be good for liberty.

[Anti Federalist]

In this fight for liberty and freedom, this intellectual battle, I cannot even consider building or funding a Wall. Yes, immigrants, like many Americans in our country, take some form of welfare. But as I think about this, why in the world would I compound anti-liberty initiatives by forcing my will on innocent property/business owners when I am fighting this out of hand government from infringing upon MY rights?

Why?

Because we (natives that believe in the Bill of Rights, limited government and property rights) are to be displaced by the immigrant hordes being brought and encouraged to come here by same the corrupt government you just mentioned.

Once displaced and dispossessed we will be eliminated.

And yes, I mean that in the most extreme of terms.

[RJB]

Exactly, but PAF claims that open borders will be good for liberty.

Like Angela stated it is the talk of stoned college kids.

Reality is different.

Cities, states, nation's formed to protect the resources of a group from the ravaging of Invaders. That's genuine history and human nature, not pipe dreams.

Our nation isn't perfect, but I have a happy life. It would however suck if we imported the population who voted for Hugo Chavez. It will cease to be our country. We are in that process now. California was a middle class paradise. It's turning into Tijuana.

It will also suck if you imported a population who will vote for gun control. They may seem peaceful, but I take it as a voilent threat if they peacefully vote to send government to disarm me. We are in that process now.

I have also realized that despite pipe dreams, the majority of Americans want a police force. The size of that force is based on the apparent scope of criminal activity. Crime is relatively low. Importing gang members will grow the size of law enforcement more than stopping it at the border. I would rather excess police at the border rather than letting criminals in and having excess police in my neighborhood.


In the almost 50 years of being alive I have watched neighborhoods go from places where kids could leave bikes on their front lawns overnight without fear to neighborhoods where your kids risked getting shot in broad daylight. It's not because the original residents turned bad, but rather that the original residents were displaced. If you wish to keep both crime and the police state at a minimum, the solution is to not import criminals.

Someone sneaking in is a criminal at worst. At best they are people who have no respect for us. I wouldn't sneak into a foreign land. I have respect for others. I demand the same.

[Swordsmyth]

Like Angela stated it is the talk of stoned college kids.

Reality is different.

Cities, states, nation's formed to protect the resources of a group from the ravaging of Invaders. That's genuine history and human nature, not pipe dreams.

Our nation isn't perfect, but I have a happy life. It would however suck if we imported the population who voted for Hugo Chavez. It will cease to be our country. We are in that process now. California was a middle class paradise. It's turning into Tijuana.

It will also suck if you imported a population who will vote for gun control. They may seem peaceful, but I take it as a voilent threat if they peacefully vote to send government to disarm me. We are in that process now.

I have also realize that despite pipe dreams, the majority of Americans want a police force. The size of that force is based on the apparent scope of criminal activity. Crime is relatively low. Importing gang members will grow the size of law enforcement more than stopping it at the border. I would rather excess police at the border rather than letting criminals in and having excess police in my neighborhood.


In the almost 50 years of being alive I have watched neighborhoods go from places where kids could leave bikes on their front lawns overnight without fear to neighborhoods where your kids risked getting shot in broad daylight. It's not because the original residents turned bad, but rather that the original residents were displaced. If you wish to keep both crime and the police state at a minimum, the solution is to not import criminals.

Someone sneaking in is a criminal at worst. At best they are people who have no respect for us. I wouldn't sneak into a foreign land. I have respect for others. I demand the same.

You must spread some reputation around.............

[PAF]

I vividly remember during the RP campaign some of the liberty meetups I attended throughout several states were being co-opted. I and quite a few others earned the respect and trust toward each other and still maintain friendships as well as a couple of weekly meetings we still hold. One of things that I am known for is vetting out politicians, and attendees attempting to sway new members to a more, shall I say, “statist” view. Well, it was just a matter of time before it happened here.

“You bore me”, “banter” “LOL”, “stoned college kids”. None of that bothers this ripe young man. But it does display the same lack of tolerance and respect that we encountered among the romney folks.

RPF, RIP.

[Swordsmyth]

I vividly remember during the RP campaign some of the liberty meetups I attended throughout several states were being co-opted. I and quite a few others earned the respect and trust toward each other and still maintain friendships as well as a couple of weekly meetings we still hold. One of things that I am known for is vetting out politicians, and attendees attempting to sway new members to a more, shall I say, “statist” view. Well, it was just a matter of time before it happened here.

“You bore me”, “banter” “LOL”, “stoned college kids”. None of that bothers this ripe young man. But it does display the same lack of tolerance and respect that we encountered among the romney folks.

RPF, RIP.

If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen, snowflake.

[Anti Federalist]

I vividly remember during the RP campaign some of the liberty meetups I attended throughout several states were being co-opted. I and quite a few others earned the respect and trust toward each other and still maintain friendships as well as a couple of weekly meetings we still hold. One of things that I am known for is vetting out politicians, and attendees attempting to sway new members to a more, shall I say, “statist” view. Well, it was just a matter of time before it happened here.

“You bore me”, “banter” “LOL”, “stoned college kids”. None of that bothers this ripe young man. But it does display the same lack of tolerance and respect that we encountered among the romney folks.

RPF, RIP.

I disagree.

I was very much in the same school of thought that you were in.

What changed my mind on this was the unhinged, "masks off" response of the Bolshevik left in the United States after the 2016 election cycle.

I was not a Trump fan, I wrote many heated posts in opposition to him, I did not vote for him, and my jury is still out.

Outside of faint praise on some of the actions he has taken, that is about the only way I could be called a "Trump Humper" or shill and my change in view does not come from a purely partisan point of view.

Mock and scoff if you like, but I'll be brutally honest, yes, the reactions from the Bolshevik left and the Snowflakes at political trends over the last couple of years, all of whom are happy to embrace tyranny, scared the crap out of me.

In my mind, it is not hyperbole to say they are but one charismatic leader away from becoming Jacobin-esque killers.

And they have made it very clear that the target is squarely placed on me and my family.

We all thought it would be government tanks and troops in the street to oppress us, in the final end.

It will not be.

It will be your neighbor burning down your house in the middle of the night for holding "improper views".

It will be your boss bankrupting you by blackballing you for employment and banking and trade for saying "improper things".

It will be the random leftist thug shooting you in the face for doing "improper things".

[RJB]

I vividly remember during the RP campaign some of the liberty meetups I attended throughout several states were being co-opted. I and quite a few others earned the respect and trust toward each other and still maintain friendships as well as a couple of weekly meetings we still hold. One of things that I am known for is vetting out politicians, and attendees attempting to sway new members to a more, shall I say, “statist” view. Well, it was just a matter of time before it happened here.

“You bore me”, “banter” “LOL”, “stoned college kids”. None of that bothers this ripe young man. But it does display the same lack of tolerance and respect that we encountered among the romney folks.

RPF, RIP.

Stoned college kids was a remark based on my own experience, conversations, and thoughts. I once believed as you do. Like AF, I have come to realize a lot of people hate us.

I also came to the understanding that a good portion of Americans want a police, warfare, and welfare state in a limited scope. I would prefer not to have that, but I realize, that will never change. What will change is importing a population who wants a larger welfare state and a criminal class who scares people into wanting more police.

One of the things governments came about for is defense of like minded people. I see nothing wrong with bringing our troops home and defending the borders. They should let other nations exist as they wish to exist and defend our nation from those who wish us harm.

If someone wants to come into this country, they can enter the respectable way, as long as they do not try to change it into a Venezuela.

[Swordsmyth]

I disagree.

I was very much in the same school of thought that you were in.

What changed my mind on this was the unhinged, "masks off" response of the Bolshevik left in the United States after the 2016 election cycle.

I was not a Trump fan, I wrote many heated posts in opposition to him, I did not vote for him, and my jury is still out.

Outside of faint praise on some of the actions he has taken, that is about the only way I could be called a "Trump Humper" or shill and my change in view does not come from a purely partisan point of view.

Mock and scoff if you like, but I'll be brutally honest, yes, the reactions from the Bolshevik left and the Snowflakes at political trends over the last couple of years, all of whom are happy to embrace tyranny, scared the crap out of me.

In my mind, it is not hyperbole to say they are but one charismatic leader away from becoming Jacobin-esque killers.

And they have made it very clear that the target is squarely placed on me and my family.

We all thought it would be government tanks and troops in the street to oppress us, in the final end.

It will not be.

It will be your neighbor burning down your house in the middle of the night for holding "improper views".

It will be your boss bankrupting you by blackballing you for employment and banking and trade for saying "improper things".

It will be the random leftist thug shooting you in the face for doing "improper things".

It will be racial gangs murdering whites to "bring down white privilege".

[Swordsmyth]

Stoned college kids was a remark based on my own experience, conversations, and thoughts. I once believed as you do. Like AF, I have come to realize a lot of people hate us.

I also came to the understanding that a good portion of Americans want a police, warfare, and welfare state in a limited scope. I would prefer not to have that, but I realize, that will never change. What will change is importing a population who wants a larger welfare state and a criminal class who scares people into wanting more police.

One of the things governments came about for is defense of like minded people. I see nothing wrong with bringing our troops home and defending the borders. They should let other nations exist as they wish to exist and defend our nation from those who wish us harm.

If someone wants to come into this country, they can enter the respectable way, as long as they do not try to change it into a Venezuela.

And if we were to ever convince the masses to embrace libertarianism/anarchy it will be because we educate them faster than they multiply, bringing in millions of people who are even farther away from our position every year will make that impossible.

If we ever achieve a libertarian/anarchic paradise then we can allow a slightly larger number to come here.

[Anti Federalist]

It will be racial gangs murdering whites to "bring down white privilege".

Maybe...but honestly, almost every time I see some professor or pundit or leftist ranting about killing or utterly dispossessing me and my family in order to "bash fash" or "destroy the cis gender oppressors" or "bring down the patriarchy" it's a bunch of electric purple haired, tattooed, weirdosexual white women or a mob of white male, self loathing, slack jawed fagggots, of some sort or another.

Most of the middle and working class black folks I know, find this $#@! just as repugnant as we do.

The upper class blacks, not all, since their kids all attend the university system, where they all, of any ethnicity, get infected with the Cultural Marxism flu.

We, meaning whites, have a $#@! ton housekeeping to do ourselves to get our house in order.

Which can't done while being flooded with third world migrants.

[angelatc]

I vividly remember during the RP campaign some of the liberty meetups I attended throughout several states were being co-opted. ..... But it does display the same lack of tolerance and respect that we encountered among the romney folks.

RPF, RIP.

Son, we were bored by people using your talking points by 2008.

[angelatc]

I disagree.

I was very much in the same school of thought that you were in.

.

We all were on that page once.

[euphemia]

Pretty much my POV- including the fact that the wall will be used more to keep us in than to keep them out.

Only if one plans to walk across the border in a place other than a designated port of call. You can fly anywhere you want with documentation. Or drive through a designated port of call. Or take a bus or train.

If you want to come into my house, you will use the door, if I let you in. Try to come in through a window or force your way in, and you might not like what happens.

I would not dream of pushing my way into your house, making a mess, changing the channels, or leaving the lights on all night.

[Ender]

Only if one plans to walk across the border in a place other than a designated port of call. You can fly anywhere you want with documentation. Or drive through a designated port of call. Or take a bus or train.

If you want to come into my house, you will use the door, if I let you in. Try to come in through a window or force your way in, and you might not like what happens.

I would not dream of pushing my way into your house, making a mess, changing the channels, or leaving the lights on all night.

Your private property is yours- we agree. But I have the lawful right to travel on open land that is not owned by an individual. The gov has no lawful right to any land.

[PAF]

So far with the exception of Ender and myself, I am seeing blanket sentencing without due process, eminent domain, restriction on freedom of travel, papers please, blowing off BoR... all being promoted. All of you are doing a helluva fine job assisting those who you say are wrecking this country.

Hell I feel freer and safer among the immigrants. Perhaps it would be prudent to take a good look at yourselves. Talk about flakes, you guys take the cake.