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Thread: Restricted Franchise?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If only the property holders can vote there is nothing to restrain them from voting for policies that benefit themselves at the expense of those who can't vote.
    There are certainly systems where that's conceivable, but in addition to franchise restrictions, there should be heavy restrictions on what can even make it on the ballot to be voted on in the first place. Group A votes to benefit themselves at the expense of group B all the time, so that's an argument against voting as a whole. That's why we should scrap the concept entirely and replace democracy with a private state.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    There are certainly systems where that's conceivable, but in addition to franchise restrictions, there should be heavy restrictions on what can even make it on the ballot to be voted on in the first place. Group A votes to benefit themselves at the expense of group B all the time, so that's an argument against voting as a whole. That's why we should scrap the concept entirely and replace democracy with a private state.
    I prefer the restrictions I mentioned in the OP, and I don't believe a "private state" is a viable concept.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I prefer the restrictions I mentioned in the OP, and I don't believe a "private state" is a viable concept.
    Private states have existed throughout almost all of history and exist today. A monarchy is a private state. If you want a more modern example, Singapore and Liechtenstein are both reasonable facsimiles of what I'm talking about.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    Private states have existed throughout almost all of history and exist today. A monarchy is a private state. If you want a more modern example, Singapore and Liechtenstein are both reasonable facsimiles of what I'm talking about.
    Well if that is what you are referring to then I agree that Monarchy is viable, but it lacks a mechanism to hold the Monarch responsible for his actions.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Well if that is what you are referring to then I agree that Monarchy is viable, but it lacks a mechanism to hold the Monarch responsible for his actions.
    It's to the left. It's called a "release handle".

    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Well if that is what you are referring to then I agree that Monarchy is viable, but it lacks a mechanism to hold the Monarch responsible for his actions.
    The mechanism is material self-interest: the same which encourages any private property owner to behave responsibly.

  9. #37
    The simple answer is, only issue a ballot to people who can name all the candidates on it without peeking. This ensures the prospective voter is only allowed to proceed if they have educated themselves on the election in question, without restricting them voting pool to one class or one outlook.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    It's to the left. It's called a "release handle".


    And what is the mechanism for making the angry mob responsible for its actions, once they've murdered the king?

    Who guillotines the guillotiners?

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And what is the mechanism for making the angry mob responsible for its actions, once they've murdered the king?
    Do you realize this is an argument against monarchy?

    And that guillotine is a noun, not a verb?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Do you realize this is an argument against monarchy?
    The point is that all sovereigns (monarch or voter) are irresponsible, not answerable to any external authority. That is what sovereignty means: ultimate decision-making power, not subject to review by anyone else. To say that a monarch is irresponsible is a criticism of the state in general, applicable to all states, incl. democratic states. Ultimately, one must rely for good government on someone's internal motivation, not on the existence of some external authority to keep them in check. You can't have auditors of auditors of auditors ad infinitum; the buck stops somewhere. The question is, with whom should it stop? Or, in other words, who has the best internal motivation to govern liberally? The answer is: a monarch.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 09-04-2017 at 10:29 AM.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    It's to the left. It's called a "release handle".

    That requires too much bloodshed, and is just as likely to be used on the people.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The mechanism is material self-interest: the same which encourages any private property owner to behave responsibly.
    I'm not going to get into this with you again, we don't agree and I won't be changing my mind.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That requires too much bloodshed, and is just as likely to be used on the people.
    Accountable ain't for the squeamish.
    Even a superficial glance at politics reveals that violence is the "mechanism" of social order.
    At least the guillotine is designed to service one neck at a time.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  17. #44
    Back to the OP topic please.

    I will no longer reply to posts about Monarchy on this thread.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Accountable ain't for the squeamish.
    Even a superficial glance at politics reveals that violence is the "mechanism" of social order.
    At least the guillotine is designed to service one neck at a time.
    The popular revolution which made first use of Dr. Guillotin's innovation wasn't exactly liberal in character, was it?

    More like communist.

    How many popular revolutions, throughout all of human history, have advanced liberty?

    One..?

    So how useful really is the national razor as a mechanism for assuring good government?

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So how useful really is the national razor as a mechanism for assuring good government?
    So how useful really is the national razor as a mechanism for assuring good citizenry?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    So how useful really is the national razor as a mechanism for assuring good citizenry?
    I don't follow...

    Did you think I was claiming that guillotining makes for good citizens...?


  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I don't follow...

    Did you think I was claiming that guillotining makes for good citizens...?

    Sigh.
    "Guillotining" is nothing special. It's more symbolic. Like hanging horse thieves. For genus ****, social order is enforced with violence, no matter your place in the hierarchy. There is no less bloodshed from the guillotine than from defying the local gendarmes.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Sigh.
    "Guillotining" is nothing special. It's more symbolic. Like hanging horse thieves. For genus ****, social order is enforced with violence, no matter your place in the hierarchy. There is no less bloodshed from the guillotine than from defying the local gendarmes.
    I agree.

    I'm just confused because you're saying this as if rebutting something I said, and I'm not sure what that'd be.

    My objection to revolution as the mechanism for assuring good government isn't that it's violent, it's that it doesn't work.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I agree.

    I'm just confused because you're saying this as if rebutting something I said, and I'm not sure what that'd be.

    My objection to revolution as the mechanism for assuring good government isn't that it's violent, it's that it doesn't work.
    Ah. I see.
    I wasn't talking about revolution. I was talking about accountability.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Ah. I see.
    I wasn't talking about revolution. I was talking about accountability.
    Accountability by way of the guillotine, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Well if that is what you are referring to then I agree that Monarchy is viable, but it lacks a mechanism to hold the Monarch responsible for his actions.
    It's to the left. It's called a "release handle".


  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Accountability by way of the guillotine, no?
    I don't understand your confusion.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I don't understand your confusion.
    I guess I'll just post this again..

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Well if that is what you are referring to then I agree that Monarchy is viable, but it lacks a mechanism to hold the Monarch responsible for his actions.
    It's to the left. It's called a "release handle".

    If you didn't mean that the mechanism for holding the monarch accountable is revolution, what did you mean?

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If you didn't mean that the mechanism for holding the monarch accountable is revolution, what did you mean?
    Do you believe deposing a monarch inherently implies "revolution"? Do you believe the consequences of a monarch's behavior should be less severe than is exacted upon the hoi-poloi?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Do you believe deposing a monarch inherently implies "revolution"?
    Sure, what else would you call it..?

    Do you believe the consequences of a monarch's behavior should be less severe than is exacted upon the hoi-poloi?
    I believe that the threat of revolution is a very poor mechanism for encouraging good behavior on the part of the state.

    And that the self-interest of a monarch is a much superior mechanism.

  30. #56
    Just to remind everyone what the topic of this thread is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I believe that the right to vote should be reserved for those who can pass a written constitutional literacy test if given a copy to work from. (what constitution is a topic for another day)
    I might consider requiring the applicant to hand copy the constitution in front of witnesses. (I think those elected should certainly have to do so)
    I also might consider requiring active or retired status in the Militia.

    Those who are too stupid to learn to read and write, or simply can't possibly be well informed because they don't speak the language, have no conceivable argument for why they should participate in government.
    And I am swayed by the Militia Idea because power must be balanced with responsibility, in this case the responsibility to protect and defend the Rights of their fellow citizens.

    I do not support a property requirement as this presumes that non-property owners don't have wealth that the propertied would be tempted to TaxSteal.
    And I am reflexively against a tax requirement as the poor have wealth and rights that can be stolen and abused.

    What do you think?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Just to remind everyone what the topic of this thread is:
    I think that's still the topic of the thread; other posters are discussing the natural end result of such a policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

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