Starbucks in hot water for having cops remove two black men from Philly store

[phill4paul]

I hear you loud and clear but what if two black men entered and refused to leave a shop owned by an armed citizen but didn't do anything else, what is he/she supposed to do? Shoot them?
The owner can't physically eject them because there are more of them than him and it would be called assault anyway, if they end up shot for refusing to leave the owner will be charged with murder, if the owner lets anyone who wants to take up space without doing business it will create a magnet for bums and criminals.
Calling the kops might just seem like the best option.
These days there might not be a good option.

The very laws and law enforcers you so believe in, is the very reason a business owner cannot shoot others for trespassing. Whereas, in our "anarchy" property rights would be respected and if an owner told you to leave...you would. By your own two feet. Walking or dragged.

"God Created Men and Sam Colt Made Them Equal!”

[Anti Federalist]

Are you an anarchist?

If you mean by anarchist: Do I believe that mankind should work toward the day when the concept of a monopoly of violence exercised against the people by the state, in order to keep them in line, is as outmoded and repugnant as chattel slavery, then yes, I am an anarchist.

In the here and now reality, I have seen, over many years, documented by me ad nauseum on this site, the multitudes of incidents where calling cops into an otherwise benign situation has escalated, solely by the cop's presence, into a killing cluster $#@!, enough times to allow me to state with no hesitation or equivocation, Do Not Call Cops.

[pcosmar]

Are you an anarchist?

Why is it that anyone who calls for a Damn Leash on Out of Control Authoritarians is labeled as an anarchist?

What about LIMITED Government do you not understand..?

[Swordsmyth]

The very laws and law enforcers you so believe in, is the very reason a business owner cannot shoot others for trespassing. Whereas, in our "anarchy" property rights would be respected and if an owner told you to leave...you would.

And the weak can just eat it, right?
The laws need to be reformed so that you can shoot trespassers and thieves but even if that happened there would be people too old/sick/weak/clumsy to protect themselves.

[pcosmar]

Trying to deal reasonably with people is a must and you should try almost everything else before calling the kops, but calling the kops might sometimes be a better option than shooting people or assaulting them yourself.

Never.
Personal responsibility.. Police are a cowards duck from responsibility.

[Anti Federalist]

Was Fiction.. but a nice fiction.

I would not mind a world a bit closer to that..

But my observation is that the free world is turning into the Main Yard at a prison.

My world in small town New England is very much like that, warts and all.

Which is why I get upset at those who insist it must be eliminated, for any number of reasons that "theye" give, all of which are bull$#@!.

[phill4paul]

Are you an anarchist?

I can answer that for him. With about 99.9% accuracy. We'll see if I'm wrong.

Anarchy: a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.

AF doesn't believe in disorder due to the absence or non-recognition of authority.

He believes in: order due to the recognition and presence of individual authority over the authority of the state or those who would use the state over the authority of the individual.

[pcosmar]

And the weak can just eat it, right?
The laws need to be reformed so that you can shoot trespassers and thieves but even if that happened there would be people too old/sick/weak/clumsy to protect themselves.

They can arm themselves,, they can hire security.. if it is really needed...

No one should ever expect someone else to do it for them. except perhaps babies.

[Swordsmyth]

Never.
Personal responsibility.. Police are a cowards duck from responsibility.

So anyone who can't deal with a gang of violent criminal types who may outnumber them as well as being perhaps stronger and better armed by themselves just gets Darwined in your ideal world?

[Madison320]

I hear you loud and clear but what if two black men entered and refused to leave a shop owned by an armed citizen but didn't do anything else, what is he/she supposed to do? Shoot them?
The owner can't physically eject them because there are more of them than him and it would be called assault anyway, if they end up shot for refusing to leave the owner will be charged with murder, if the owner lets anyone who wants to take up space without doing business it will create a magnet for bums and criminals.
Calling the kops might just seem like the best option.
These days there might not be a good option.

I agree.

What anarchists don't understand is that force ALWAYS exists. With no "official" police force the vacuum will be filled by the biggest force in the area. In the absence of a police force Starbucks wouldn't exist because they'd be "policed" by the local warlord. Nobody would invest in a business of any size if they had to secure their own property rights.

I saw parts of a docudrama on Netflix called "Surviving Escobar" recently. One reason there was so much violence in Colombia was because they had "competition" in governments. They had a weak but officially recognized government, they had the FARC (left wing guerrillas), they had the Narcos like Escobar, and they had the paramilitaries. All of the alternate governments were financed by the huge profits in the drug trade so they were all just as powerful as the "official" government. In that scenario disputes are settled by force, not a courtroom. It was an anarchist paradise. They also had one of the highest murder rates in the world.

[Swordsmyth]

They can arm themselves,, they can hire security.. if it is really needed...

No one should ever expect someone else to do it for them. except perhaps babies.

Let the poor and the weak die, they don't deserve to live anyway?

[phill4paul]

And the weak can just eat it, right?
The laws need to be reformed so that you can shoot trespassers and thieves but even if that happened there would be people too old/sick/weak/clumsy to protect themselves.

You're starting to sound like a liberal. Are you a liberal? Government is created to support those too old/sick/weak/clumsy to support themselves?

[pcosmar]

My world in small town New England is very much like that, warts and all.

Which is why I get upset at those who insist it must be eliminated, for any number of reasons that "theye" give, all of which are bull$#@!.

I remember a small Island with no police. kids rode motorcycles without helmets and everything.
I remember weeks without shoes.

but even that place is gone now.

[Swordsmyth]

You're starting to sound like a liberal. Are you a liberal? Government is created to support those too old/sick/weak/clumsy to support themselves?

To protect NOT to support, there is a major difference.

[pcosmar]

Let the poor and the weak die, they don't deserve to live anyway?

The National Socialism you are promoting has gone there before.

You said it.. Not me.

[phill4paul]

I agree.

What anarchists don't understand is that force ALWAYS exists. With no "official" police force the vacuum will be filled by the biggest force in the area. In the absence of a police force Starbucks wouldn't exist because they'd be "policed" by the local warlord. Nobody would invest in a business of any size if they had to secure their own property rights.

I saw parts of a docudrama on Netflix called "Surviving Escobar" recently. One reason there was so much violence in Colombia was because they had "competition" in governments. They had a weak but officially recognized government, they had the FARC (left wing guerrillas), they had the Narcos like Escobar, and they had the paramilitaries. All of the alternate governments were financed by the huge profits in the drug trade so they were all just as powerful as the "official" government. In that scenario disputes are settled by force, not a courtroom. It was an anarchist paradise. They also had one of the highest murder rates in the world.

Tell me of these "property rights." What is it you own that the biggest warlord on the block, the state and Federal government, can't take from you?

[Madison320]

They can arm themselves,, they can hire security.. if it is really needed...

No one should ever expect someone else to do it for them. except perhaps babies.

In that scenario you'd still have a government. It would be whatever group was able to gather up enough force to dominate a given area.

[Swordsmyth]

The National Socialism you are promoting has gone there before.

You said it.. Not me.

LOL, I want reformed sheriff's deputies or police and now I am a NAZI, you are the one advocating that the law of Darwin should rule our land.

[phill4paul]

To protect NOT to support, there is a major difference.

No, there is not.

[Madison320]

Tell me of these "property rights." What is it you own that the biggest warlord on the block, the state and Federal government, can't take from you?

The choices are a crappy US-like government, or a really, really crappy government like North Korea or Colombia. Paradise on Earth is not one of the choices.

[pcosmar]

In that scenario you'd still have a government. It would be whatever group was able to gather up enough force to dominate a given area.

Commonly known as "We The People".

And you are the one making the false accusation that I support anarchy.... repeatedly... incessantly..

I am not an anarchist.. Precisely because to do not believe that anarchy can exist past momentary chaos.
I do believe that Government is EVIL...and also necessary due to human nature.
Therefore ,, I believe in Limited Government.. very tightly leashed because it is inherently EVIL.

Evil does not ever like to be limited.
Evil begs for more government,, more power,, more police,, more control,,,

NO.. I am not an anarchist.. I am Anti-Authoritarian.

[Swordsmyth]

The choices are a crappy US-like government, or a really, really crappy government like North Korea or Colombia. Paradise on Earth is not one of the choices.

We might be able to improve on the crappy US-like government a little but we will have little success while "libertarians" brag about preferring the law of the jungle and "devil take the hindmost".

[nobody's_hero]

I agree.

What anarchists don't understand is that force ALWAYS exists. .

Indeed, it's human nature. Government tends to legitimize it, in many ways, but without it . . .

I'm still picturing Starbucks police versus the Loitering People police. Who will win?

I think Starbucks police would win. The Loitering People police would just stand there not doing anything. Who knows, though? It could be an epic fight. Then the Philadelphia police would show up and each team would compete to offer the best service at the lowest price. People would vote with their wallets, and then the proceeds could be used to replace any police who were maimed during the fighting. It seems to be a fairly solid business model.

[VIDEODROME]

[Swordsmyth]

Indeed, it's human nature. Government tends to legitimize it, in many ways, but without it . . .

I'm still picturing Starbucks police versus the Loitering People police. Who will win?

I think Starbucks police would win. The Loitering People police would just stand there not doing anything. Who knows, though? It could be an epic fight. Then the Philadelphia police would show up and each team would compete to offer the best service at the lowest price. People would vote with their wallets, and then the proceeds could be used to replace any police who were maimed during the fighting. It seems to be a fairly solid business model.

All you would get is gang warfare and multiple protection rackets forcing people to pay for their services.

[Swordsmyth]

@Anti Federalist

Supposedly Racist Manager 'Is An SJW Feminist Of The Highest Order'

[timosman]

All you would get is gang warfare and multiple protection rackets forcing people to pay for their services.

Couldn't we just send them to sensitivity trainings? This would fix things. That's the current line of thinking anyway.

[dannno]

@Anti Federalist

Supposedly Racist Manager 'Is An SJW Feminist Of The Highest Order'

Once I even overheard her scorn a male barista for not using the proper neutral pronouns with somebody.

This patron explained that Holly “is not racist and doesn’t deserve what is happening to her here in Philly.” The patrons of the Starbucks are “both black and white, and I’ve personally seen Holly give the oh-so-coveted restroom code to both black and white people, patrons and non-patrons. I’ve seen her train both black and white staff members and she has been nothing but nice to everyone, and I’ve never witnessed any racist behavior.”

@Influenza

You wanna call me racist again, you $#@!in $#@!??

I mean, how dare I suggest that the reason they were asked to leave wasn't because of their skin color, but due to their behavior??

[Anti Federalist]

@Anti Federalist

Supposedly Racist Manager 'Is An SJW Feminist Of The Highest Order'

Oh that is precious...couldn't have happened to nicer person.

[Anti Federalist]

I can answer that for him. With about 99.9% accuracy. We'll see if I'm wrong.

Anarchy: a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority.

AF doesn't believe in disorder due to the absence or non-recognition of authority.

He believes in: order due to the recognition and presence of individual authority over the authority of the state or those who would use the state over the authority of the individual.

Bing-$#@!ing-go