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Thread: RFK Jr. Champions Economic Populism: Protect American Workers with Tariffs

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So you're saying fighting slavery with slavery doesn't agree with you? How do you feel about fighting fire with fire?
    It does not agree with me. Being an Agorist helps mitigate that, using Risk versus Reward, I try to (and do) avoid taxation, the state, etc. the best that I can. I do feel like a slave at times, it is the world in which we live. As for fighting fire with fire, the NAP deals with that. Waking people out their brainwashed state, well, all I can do is try try try. Otherwise, I become a supporter of the problem. Nobody said it was easy ;-)


    @jmdrake you may find the all taxation is theft position doesn't align precisely with yours. But please set that aside a moment. Is your position on tariffs a bit paternal? Companies from Nestlē's to Anhauser Busch have discovered that people are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves who they want to boycott.

    Looking forward to @jmdrake response.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    ...
    When you're talking about raw resources, then it's a no brainer. If you can get raw resources from another land, and at a cheaper cost than depleting your own nation's resources, you do it. You may need to explain why another nation "dumping" their goods into our country is a bad thing. The only argument that I've heard that is somewhat compelling is that our nation could become reliant upon the dumping and would lose our ability to find alternatives. I'm not sure this is really valid since free markets are incredibly adaptable, but at least there's an argument to be made there. But the idea that protectionist policies help our economy has just been debunked so many times it's become trite.
    That is a compelling argument, especially in combination with the foreign source being a hostile competitor.

    But this does bring up a larger issue of human nature. It may be easier and cheaper for a child to live in their parents basement forever, but is that best for them? Likewise, it is easier and cheaper to live on government largess rather than work. People naturally become reliant, and it saps motivation and work ethic. I'd say this concept may apply to nations in some ways. The path of least resistance is not always the best in the long run.

    Here's a sad, true story. When I was young, a friend's father recommended a Harry Browne book to us. We became libertarian minded at a young age. Years later, while discussing government flaws, I made the same case as above, that many low level workers would make more money on welfare than working, and that it was crazy. This former libertarian took that as an endorsement of going on welfare. They quit their job and never worked again...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So you're saying fighting slavery with slavery doesn't agree with you? How do you feel about fighting fire with fire?

    @jmdrake you may find the all taxation is theft position doesn't align precisely with yours. But please set that aside a moment. Is your position on tariffs a bit paternal? Companies from Nestlē's to Anhauser Busch have discovered that people are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves who they want to boycott.
    I'm not opposed to governments being "paternal" on the question of slavery. And no, I don't think slavery or the support of slavery should be left up to "individuals." Also I put tariffs in a different category than say the income tax. The income tax is most definitely slavery because I'm required to pay it just for working. I can avoid a tariff just by not buying anything that has a tariff on it. But for the sake of discussion with you an @PAF, forget the tariff for a moment and consider an outright ban on imports created by slave labor. No tax of any kind. Just a ban. I sincerely believe that England should have banned all imports of Southern cotton until slavery was abolished. The South would have then abolished slavery on their own and the U.S. Civil War would have been avoided and thousands of lives would have been saved. The only draw back is some European consumers would have had to pay more money for their British textiles. Cry me a river!
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  6. #34
    I don't agree with everything said on this page, but I'm having a hard time finding anything worth arguing against.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I'm not opposed to governments being "paternal" on the question of slavery. And no, I don't think slavery or the support of slavery should be left up to "individuals." Also I put tariffs in a different category than say the income tax. The income tax is most definitely slavery because I'm required to pay it just for working. I can avoid a tariff just by not buying anything that has a tariff on it. But for the sake of discussion with you an @PAF, forget the tariff for a moment and consider an outright ban on imports created by slave labor. No tax of any kind. Just a ban. I sincerely believe that England should have banned all imports of Southern cotton until slavery was abolished. The South would have then abolished slavery on their own and the U.S. Civil War would have been avoided and thousands of lives would have been saved. The only draw back is some European consumers would have had to pay more money for their British textiles. Cry me a river!

    Another example of "government help me and others, save me and others, do something please, I refuse to not purchase products made by other countries UNLESS the government bans it for me."

    And then what's to stop the government from deciding what it "thinks" is this, that or the other thing? Oh, wait...
    Last edited by PAF; 05-26-2023 at 09:55 AM.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    It does not agree with me. Being an Agorist helps mitigate that, using Risk versus Reward, I try to (and do) avoid taxation, the state, etc. the best that I can. I do feel like a slave at times, it is the world in which we live. As for fighting fire with fire, the NAP deals with that. Waking people out their brainwashed state, well, all I can do is try try try. Otherwise, I become a supporter of the problem. Nobody said it was easy ;-)





    Looking forward to @jmdrake response.
    Not being "free" to buy goods made from slave labor in no way makes me feel like a slave. It makes me feel like a decent human being. Should someone be "free" to purchase child porn? I mean....the child's already been filmed so technically the person buying the porn (or downloading it for free) isn't directly harming the child. In some cases the child porn may be so old that the child is now an adult. I know that's an extreme example....but maybe not. I put the horrors of chattel slavery and child sexual abuse on the same level. (People are free to disagree). It bothers me not one iota for "freedom of commerce" to be restricted in those narrow instances. Yeah...that means I can't be an anarchist. I can get close. I've got no problem, for example, with allowing people to take whatever "controlled" substance they want in the privacy of their own home. Don't get behind the wheel if you're drunk, high or both and down be out in the public space making a nuisance of yourself by wandering in the street and crapping on the sidewalk. But you want to do that in your living room or in the living room of anybody else that will take you in? Fine by me. But owning another person? Or sexually abusing a child? Or helping someone else profit off of owning another person or sexually abusing a child? I just can't get past that. I just can't.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Another example of "government help me and others, save me and others, do something please, I refuse to not purchase products made by other countries UNLESS the government bans it for me."

    And then what's to stop the government from deciding what it "thinks" is this, that or the other thing? Oh, wait...
    By having a very narrow class of situations to apply this to. I can only think of two situations. 1) Nobody should own another person or profit from someone owning a person either as a producer or a consumer and 2) nobody should sexually abuse or exploit children or profit from someone sexually abusing or exploiting children either as a producer or a consumer. Argue all you want. I'm not budging on those two principles.

    Edit: And just to be clear. It's not that I can't refuse to buy slave labor products or kiddie porn. I don't want ANYBODY in my country buying slave labor goods or kiddie porn. I don't buy gay porn either (who buys porn these days anyway?) but I don't have a problem with the fact that others can legally buy and/or view it in my country.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 05-26-2023 at 10:10 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    By having a very narrow class of situations to apply this to. I can only think of two situations. 1) Nobody should own another person or profit from someone owning a person either as a producer or a consumer and 2) nobody should sexually abuse or exploit children or profit from someone sexually abusing or exploiting children either as a producer or a consumer. Argue all you want. I'm not budging on those two principles.

    And this relates to "tariffs" [theft of money] how?
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I don't agree with everything said on this page, but I'm having a hard time finding anything worth arguing against.
    FWIW I always enjoy your input.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I'm not opposed to governments being "paternal" on the question of slavery. And no, I don't think slavery or the support of slavery should be left up to "individuals." Also I put tariffs in a different category than say the income tax. The income tax is most definitely slavery because I'm required to pay it just for working. I can avoid a tariff just by not buying anything that has a tariff on it. But for the sake of discussion with you an @PAF, forget the tariff for a moment and consider an outright ban on imports created by slave labor. No tax of any kind. Just a ban. I sincerely believe that England should have banned all imports of Southern cotton until slavery was abolished. The South would have then abolished slavery on their own and the U.S. Civil War would have been avoided and thousands of lives would have been saved. The only draw back is some European consumers would have had to pay more money for their British textiles. Cry me a river!
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    And this relates to "tariffs" [theft of money] how?
    See the above discussion that you apparently missed.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    See the above discussion that you apparently missed.
    Taxation is Theft. "Government" bans are wrong. I'm not budging on those two principles. ;-)

    jmdrake, I travel a lot. Sure, there are problems in this world, INCLUDING right here at home. But more often than not, I am "informed" by others what he|| holes those places are that I visit, even when said person never set foot in those places, not even once. Just like here at home, I avoid the not so good areas there. I don't need or want others dictating or making my mind up for me.

    The same goes for products that I buy. Everybody is UP IN ARMS about how EVIL China is and that they sell garbage. Yet nobody is boycotting them. If I paid attention to these people, they would continue to buy what they want, and either I would have to spend more than I could afford, or go completely without things that I need or want.

    Now, if the people in China truly believe they are slaves, it is on THEM, NOT ME, to either quit their job, revolt, or flee. I can not and will not solve the entire worlds problems when I have my own family to be personally responsible for.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    FWIW I always enjoy your input.
    Well, that's a nice thing to say.

    Slavery violates the living $#@! out of the NAP. Nations allowing it does make it a temptation to put some teeth in the fight. And as a concept it's full of merit. But principle leads us away from danger. And there are dangers here. Like, the attitude could trap a nation into a path of escalation that could end in shooting.

    Another problem is, as we have seen with out of control spending and the hoops set up for anyone who does business with the government, that the slippery slope will see people trying to extend that to cover anything and everything. "Have you been there? They use plastic straws!"

    It also leads to tribunals to determine, in this case most likely, what officially constitutes "slavery". It isn't just that somebody quotes PAF, every country with an income tax gets banned (or just the ones that didn't bribe someone) and there's a kerfluffle. People are constantly trying to redraw the line in the sand, or even redefine it. Bribery will enter into it. As always in government, where guidelines are defined, loopholes will be designed. There's also now an entire tribunal whose jobs are dependant on finding other excuses to exist--a ministry of professional slippery slope enablers. Next thing you know, you're sending foreign aid to countries without slave labor.

    So, the principle slavery must end is sound, laudable and right. But there are other principles worthy of consideration too. Even if you don't let PAF nip your ban in the bud, you know you want him there anchoring it in place on that slippery slope. He'll drive it a foundation down to bedrock, if possible.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-26-2023 at 10:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    That is a compelling argument, especially in combination with the foreign source being a hostile competitor.

    But this does bring up a larger issue of human nature. It may be easier and cheaper for a child to live in their parents basement forever, but is that best for them? Likewise, it is easier and cheaper to live on government largess rather than work. People naturally become reliant, and it saps motivation and work ethic. I'd say this concept may apply to nations in some ways. The path of least resistance is not always the best in the long run.

    Here's a sad, true story. When I was young, a friend's father recommended a Harry Browne book to us. We became libertarian minded at a young age. Years later, while discussing government flaws, I made the same case as above, that many low level workers would make more money on welfare than working, and that it was crazy. This former libertarian took that as an endorsement of going on welfare. They quit their job and never worked again...
    Trade, whether foreign or domestic, raises the same issues. One could say that we could become reliant upon farmers to produce our food and thereby lose our ability to effectively garden. I take it as a self-evident good that specialization allows us to have more wealth. But we must also recognize that this will somewhat diminish our skills to provide for ourselves if our trading partners were to ever vanish for some reason. Even if you can farm vegetables, can you raise your own meat? Can you provide your own power, blacksmith your own tools, blow glass, fix engines, or any other myriad of activities??

    A well-rounded man will have at least rudimentary skills and knowledge to be self-sufficient in an emergency, but in the meantime, trading still seems like a practical idea.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Taxation is Theft. "Government" bans are wrong. I'm not budging on those two principles. ;-)

    jmdrake, I travel a lot. Sure, there are problems in this world, INCLUDING right here at home. But more often than not, I am "informed" by others what he|| holes those places are that I visit, even when said person never set foot in those places, not even once. Just like here at home, I avoid the not so good areas there. I don't need or want others dictating or making my mind up for me.

    The same goes for products that I buy. Everybody is UP IN ARMS about how EVIL China is and that they sell garbage. Yet nobody is boycotting them. If I paid attention to these people, they would continue to buy what they want, and either I would have to spend more than I could afford, or go completely without things that I need or want.

    Now, if the people in China truly believe they are slaves, it is on THEM, NOT ME, to either quit their job, revolt, or flee. I can not and will not solve the entire worlds problems when I have my own family to be personally responsible for.
    I think you're missing my point. I will simplify it. I'm sure you don't need the government to tell you that child porn is bad for the simple fact that children are harmed to produce it. There are other people that don't mind children being harmed. I don't want them to be allowed to help perpetuate such a system by consuming it not because I need protection but others do. So, I agree with a ban on child porn. If you disagree on principle I get it. But please understand this is not to protect me from something I'm not going to do anyway.

    Now for goods produced by slavery, it is a bit more difficult because there's so much of that. I still content (and nobody has tried to address this) that had England banned Southern cotton that would have ended up saving lives and ending U.S. slavery sooner. Interestingly enough, instead of using "soft power", England used it's military to stop the slave trade itself while continuing to profit indirectly from the slaves that had already been transported to the New World. Thomas Sowell gives this praise to England for ending the slave trade:



    You don't like bans. Aren't bans better than war?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  18. #45
    @jmdrake

    You are attempting to justify placing "bans" on large groups of people and/or entire countries. There are already laws that can be applied to deal with individuals. The same goes for murder, arson, etc.

    How do I know what happens or how each individual is treated in a large semi-conductor plant over in China, India, or wherever? Or what happens to employees who manufactures/forms steel in a processing facility?

    You are suggesting that I become "The Worlds Police", or have our country be The Worlds Police (which this Empire already is) to place "bans" on large groups of people and/or entire nations, which I will not advocate or do. As I stated before, if people feel like, or are treated as slaves, sexual or otherwise, they can quit, revolt or flee. The people of that community in other countries can/should address any other problems that they have a problem with. Just like we should do here at home.

    This is not a justification, but consider this: 100 employees are paid a "substandard" wage, say for example in Viet Nam (according to what you believe a wage should be, and compared to wages in the United States). They are able to survive, feed their families, buy toys, tv's and cars. By placing a "ban" against large groups of people or an entire country, the factory/company will no longer have purchasers, commerce stops and those employees will ultimately lose their jobs. Wow, a lot of good you just did by placing that "ban", don't you feel swell?

    Sorry, but I don't buy into being "The Worlds Police". People of other countries have standards of living, customs, and other things that you may or may not agree with. It is up to the People in those areas, where they live, to address whatever problems they may have. Or, perhaps Canada should place a ban on the United States, because the employees of R&R Plastics in the next town over complain that they are treated like slaves (I hear it often), even though they make $18.50/hour?


    I will also stand by my very firm position that while "child labor" is frowned upon here, illegal even, 12, 13, 14 years olds who work in other countries are doing something productive to earn a wage and learn actual responsibility. While the same in America play video games all day/night, are obese, dumbed down by an education system and don't even know how to put a set of plugs in a car, while learning about/contemplating what sex they want to be. Had I started doing residential/commercial wiring at 12 years old today, like I did decades ago, my old man would be thrown in prison and I would be hauled away.


    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    You don't like bans. Aren't bans better than war?
    Not when used/enforced by government(s).
    Last edited by PAF; 05-27-2023 at 10:07 AM.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  19. #46
    I think this goes here:

    Pat Buchanan Is Wrong About Tariffs and Trade

    05/31/2016Thomas J. DiLorenzo

    I’m a fan of much of Pat Buchanan’s “America First” foreign policy writings in which he expresses the supposedly outrageous idea that the purpose of the national defense establishment should be to defend against foreign aggressors, and not be the aggressor. Defense, not offense. But his “America First” economic writings in defense of protectionism are completely wrongheaded, and often historically inaccurate.

    The main reason for the wrongheadedness is Buchanan’s pervasive error of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (“after this, therefore because of this”). An example of this fallacy would be: 1) A rooster crows in the morning; 2) The sun rises shortly after the rooster crows; 3) Therefore, the rooster crowing must cause the sun to rise.

    In Buchanan’s case, his entire argument for protectionism rests on a slightly different version of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Buchanan’s fallacy is: 1) The Republican Party ushered in forty years of protectionist tariffs, beginning in 1862; 2) There was a lot of good economic news for Americans during that period; 3) Therefore, the Republican Party’s protectionist trade policies caused the economic good news.

    In a recent column entitled “Who’s the Conservative Heretic” Buchanan repeats this mantra, which he has written over and over for the past several decades, by citing the high tariff policy of the post-Civil War era, along with declining prices, higher real wages, 4% per year increases in GDP, increased industrial production, etc. and claims that ALL of it is the result of high tariffs.

    But during that time period international trade accounted for less than 10 percent of the entire economy, so that high tariffs could not possibly have had such huge impacts. Moreover, the economic impacts of the GOP’s protectionist tariffs were uniformly bad. The main beneficiaries of the Party of Lincoln’s protectionism were the politically-connected corporate one-percenters of the day, whose corporate profits were “protected” from competition. As John C. Calhoun once accurately stated, what average Americans are “protected” from with protectionist tariffs is lower prices. Buchanan’s beloved high, post-war tariff rates allowed protected industries to rip off their American customers while all other industries were expanding, innovating, and dropping their prices. This is always and everywhere the fundamental effect of “economic nationalism”: the politically connected benefit at the expense of their fellow citizens.

    Many of the post-Civil War tariffs were imposed on capital goods that were used by American manufacturers to produce other products, thereby making those American manufacturers less competitive on international markets.

    Farmers were plundered mercilessly by the high tariffs championed by the Party of Lincoln. American farmers sold much of their product in Europe. Three-fourths of Southern agriculture was sold in Europe shortly after the war, for example. But when high protectionist tariffs deprived our European trading partners of revenue by prohibiting them from selling in America, they had fewer (or no) dollars with which to buy American agricultural products. Thus, farmers were plundered twice: Once by having to pay more for a lot of “protected” products shielded from competition and therefore higher priced; and then a second time from lost sales abroad. This is why American farmers became a powerful political force in favor of a federal income tax: They were promised lower tariffs in return for their political support.

    Farmers did help get the income tax adopted, and the average tariff rate was lowered in 1913 when the income tax was adopted. But then they were once again abused by the Party of Lincoln which, in 1922, just nine years later, passed a huge tariff increase known as the Fordney-McCumber tariff, which Buchanan praises to the treetops with another silly post hoc fallacy: “For the next five years, the economy grew 7 percent a year,” he writes. Farmers ended up with high tariffs and an income tax.

    Protecting politically-connected corporations from international competition is the surest way to make them fat and lazy, as the steel and automobile industries demonstrated in the post-World War II era. It was only after Japanese, German, and other manufacturers cleaned their clocks, so to speak, that they were finally motivated to shape up. On this point Buchanan cites the old blowhard and mentally unstable Teddy Roosevelt, calling him “the Rough Rider,” as saying that it is competition, not protectionism, that produces “fatty degeneration of the moral fiber.” What an economically clueless gasbag was Teddy Roosevelt.

    Another of Buchanan’s protectionist heroes is Congressman Justin Morrill, who sponsored the Morrill Tariff of 1859, which finally passed both the House and Senate by early 1861. Morrill was a steel manufacturer and got into politics solely for the purpose of using state power to rip off his American customers and line his pockets. The same is true of another of Buchanan’s protectionist heroes, Henry Clay, who was known as “The Prince of Hemp” for operating a large slave plantation in Kentucky that grew hemp. Clay proclaimed that he got into politics, like Morrill, to impose high tariffs on foreign hemp so that he could (legally) plunder his customers. At least Clay’s hemp tariff did not ignite a Civil War, as did Morrill’s tariff, which caused the hyper-protectionist Abe Lincoln, another of Buchanan’s protectionist heroes, to declare in his first inaugural address that it was his “duty to collect the duties and imposts” but “beyond that, there will not be an invasion of any state.” The Morrill Tariff had just more than doubled the average tariff rate two days earlier, which Southerners had been protesting and threatening secession over for the previous thirty years. Lincoln literally threatened “invasion” of his own country over tariff collection, leading to a war that, according to the latest research, may have cost as many as 850,000 American lives. Going to war to fatten the wallets of plutocrats is what Buchanan’s hero Justin Morrill should be known for.

    Buchanan seems absolutely giddy when he quotes an 1895 “History of the Republican Party” that declared, “The Republican Party . . . is the party of protection . . . that carries the banner of protection proudly.” The party of corporate one-percenters, in other words. Some things never change.

    Buchanan is dead wrong when he makes the red herring argument that “free traders” claim that the Smoot-Hawley Tariff, signed into law by Herbert Hoover in 1930, caused the Great Depression. No one I know of has ever made that argument, and I’ve been studying economics for 44 years now, as a student, professor, researcher, and author. The Smoot-Hawley tariff increased the average tariff rate to almost 60 percent and ignited an international trade war that shrunk the volume of world trade by two-thirds in three years, but it was not the sole cause of the Great Depression, which was another bust cause by the Fed’s boom-and-bust monetary policy.

    Buchanan is also dead wrong when he tries to argue that NAFTA was an example of “free trade” when exactly the opposite is true. NAFTA was several thousand pages of fine-print legalese, written by corporate and labor union lobbyists and sympathetic congressional staffers, that centrally plans international trade in a thousand different ways. It was all written up under the supervision of Clinton administration lawyer/lobbyist Mickey Kantor who had quite the reputation as a lobbyist for corporate fat cats, but no reputation at all as a free trader or as someone who knew much of anything about economics. On this point, Buchanan throws in yet another post hoc fallacy: After NAFTA, “Communist China” became “the world’s No. 1 manufacturing power.”

    Hillary Clinton would be totally, one-hundred-percent supportive of Pat Buchanan’s Quixotic protectionist crusade. It would benefit the corporate one percenters who she and her husband have expertly shaken down for years, and who would jump at the chance of benefiting from another round of “pay to play.” This is the political game in which corporations funnel many millions to the Clintons and their cronies personally, and to their party, in return for onerous protectionist tariffs on their competition that would spike their profits by allowing them to, once again, rip off their American customers. And of course, there is the old Democratic Party labor union machine that has always been in favor of protectionism for obvious selfish and greedy reasons. Pat Buchanan just might be Hillary Clinton’s ideal running mate.

    One thing Pat Buchanan is right about is that “economic nationalism” has always been the defining characteristic of the Republican Party. That is why the party has been such an economic curse on America, having transformed the nation into a corporate welfare/warfare state during the Lincoln regime.
    https://mises.org/wire/pat-buchanan-...iffs-and-trade
    Last edited by CCTelander; 05-28-2023 at 02:29 AM.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  20. #47
    I've poked holes in DiLorenzo's column before on this topic.

    My question now would be, if what DiLorenzo says is true, why is Kennedy, whose opinions on tariffs is the same as Buchanan's, being held up by people like Lew Rcokwell as a legitimate and promising "alternative" candidate?
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    My question now would be, if what DiLorenzo says is true, why is Kennedy, whose opinions on tariffs is the same as Buchanan's, being held up by people like Lew Rcokwell as a legitimate and promising "alternative" candidate?
    Because Kennedy is by far the most (and most visibly and vocally) anti-establishment of all the notable candidates, and he is quite good on a number of important things.

    Rockwell's position on the issue of tariffs is pretty much straight Austrian/Misesian - which means: pretty much identical to DiLorenzo's.

    I'm sure there are a number of issues other than just high protective tariffs over which Rockwell disagrees with Kennedy, such as gun control. His positive regard for Kennedy is not evidence that what DiLorenzo & Rockwell think about such tariffs is untrue (or hypocritical, in Rockwell's case), any more than it's evidence that DiLorenzo's & Rockwell's opposition to gun control is misguided or incorrect.

    Speaking for myself, I like Kennedy better by far than any of the other noteworthy candidates, Republican or Democrat (with perhaps the exception of Ramaswamy, whom I also like), and almost certainly for exactly the same reasons Rockwell does - despite the fact that I vehemently disagree with Kennedy about tariffs (and gun control).
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 05-29-2023 at 01:14 AM.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Because Kennedy is by far the most (and most visibly and vocally) anti-establishment of all the notable candidates, and he is quite good on a number of important things.

    Rockwell's position on the issue of tariffs is pretty much straight Austrian/Misesian - which means: pretty much identical to DiLorenzo's.

    I'm sure there are a number of issues other than just high protective tariffs over which Rockwell disagrees with Kennedy, such as gun control. His positive regard for Kennedy is not evidence that what DiLorenzo & Rockwell think about such tariffs is untrue (or hypocritical, in Rockwell's case), any more than it's evidence that DiLorenzo's & Rockwell's opposition to gun control is misguided or incorrect.

    Speaking for myself, I like Kennedy better by far than any of the other noteworthy candidates, Republican or Democrat (with perhaps the exception of Ramaswamy), and almost certainly for exactly the same reasons Rockwell does - despite the fact that I vehemently disagree with Kennedy about tariffs (and gun control).
    Hmmm...perhaps.

    Sounds to me though, like the same argument people made in favor of Bernie Sanders. At least until he sold his soul to Hillary.

    Being anti-establishment is not a big enough selling point to me, especially, when on most every other issue, a candidate, like Kennedy, toes the establishment line.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see only three things in which Kennedy is anti-establishment:

    1- Opposition to Endless war/Foreign intervention.

    2 - Opposition to "Big Pharma".

    3 - Opposition to Globalized Free Trade/Dropping Tariffs.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd like to fully support and endorse a candidate, and like this issue, I like what Kennedy has said on some things, but until another Ron Paul comes along, whose anti-establishment "cred" also matches a philosophy of freedom that much more closely matches mine, I'll probably end up on the sidelines again.

    "Hey, wait a minute AF, don't you support Trump, at least in a lukewarm sense?"

    Yes, I did in 2020. But I'll tell you what I think: I don't think he's going to make it.

    I think he will be "taken out".

    Either by physical disability or death, real or the dirty trick variety, or they will jail him over that Georgia election fraud case.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yes, I did in 2020. But I'll tell you what I think: I don't think he's going to make it.

    I think he will be "taken out".

    Either by physical disability or death, real or the dirty trick variety, or they will jail him over that Georgia election fraud case.
    You are tired of waiting. You are more than ready for the brushfires of the mind to manifest in some real fires. But you don't think putting these powers that be in the position of having to rub the public's nose in it by killing a fourth Kennedy could possibly help bring that to pass?

    You want a Kennedy? No. You can't have one. Oh, yeah. I want to make the head psychos in charge say that.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-28-2023 at 07:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Because Kennedy is by far the most (and most visibly and vocally) anti-establishment of all the notable candidates, and he is quite good on a number of important things.

    Rockwell's position on the issue of tariffs is pretty much straight Austrian/Misesian - which means: pretty much identical to DiLorenzo's.

    I'm sure there are a number of issues other than just high protective tariffs over which Rockwell disagrees with Kennedy, such as gun control. His positive regard for Kennedy is not evidence that what DiLorenzo & Rockwell think about such tariffs is untrue (or hypocritical, in Rockwell's case), any more than it's evidence that DiLorenzo's & Rockwell's opposition to gun control is misguided or incorrect.

    Speaking for myself, I like Kennedy better by far than any of the other noteworthy candidates, Republican or Democrat (with perhaps the exception of Ramaswamy), and almost certainly for exactly the same reasons Rockwell does - despite the fact that I vehemently disagree with Kennedy about tariffs (and gun control).
    @Occam's Banana @Anti Federalist , ponder this:

    RFK Jr. routinely refers to and defends the Bill of Rights, citing specific examples of how they were violated, which more people need to hear. Considering that his father and uncle were assassinated, and he doesn't speak about the 2nd A (if he has, please cite the source), I consider RFK Jr. to be "gun shy" - not gun control, simply because he has not "controlled" anything.

    Also consider that because he believes that the CIA had involvement in the assassinations, he understands that nobody is going to take government agencies guns away.

    As I have stated previously, Obama sold more guns than any other president [free advertising]; it is up to the People to defend/protect their rights, not politicians.

    The 2nd A is not a concern for me. There are other more pressing issues that need to be dealt with, such as corporate capture/lobbyists, which drive things such as Anti-gun, LGBTQ, War, etc. etc. etc. and other campaigns.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Hmmm...perhaps.

    Sounds to me though, like the same argument people made in favor of Bernie Sanders. At least until he sold his soul to Hillary.

    Being anti-establishment is not a big enough selling point to me, especially, when on most every other issue, a candidate, like Kennedy, toes the establishment line.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see only three things in which Kennedy is anti-establishment:

    1- Opposition to Endless war/Foreign intervention.

    2 - Opposition to "Big Pharma".

    3 - Opposition to Globalized Free Trade/Dropping Tariffs.
    It's a comparative thing. That's why I qualified my characterization of Kennedy as "the most [...] anti-establishment of all the notable candidates".

    Granted, that's a pretty low bar, relative to the other notables - but your points 1 & 2 are pretty big things that you, I, Rockwell & DiLorenzo can all agree upon, and I think that goes a long way towards explaining Rockwell's regard for Kennedy as a "legitimate and promising 'alternative' candidate", despite any disagreements over the issue of high protective tariffs (And if you were to frame the first part of point 3 in terms of "Globalized Free Managed Trade", then there would certainly be a basis for broad agreement on that point, as well.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'd like to fully support and endorse a candidate, and like this issue, I like what Kennedy has said on some things, but until another Ron Paul comes along, whose anti-establishment "cred" also matches a philosophy of freedom that much more closely matches mine, I'll probably end up on the sidelines again.
    I know exactly what you mean. While I like Kennedy much more than the other notables (with the exception of Ramaswamy, whom I also like), I neither endorse nor "support" [1] him for pretty much the same reason. But I am glad he's running and giving voice to things no one else is saying, despite my disagreements with him on other things.



    [1] To be honest, I'm never really sure exactly what "support" is supposed to mean in contexts like this. If it means simply agreeing with or liking certain things one considers important, then I suppose you could say I "support" him - but that doesn't really sound or feel right at all. On the other hand, if it merely means voting or intending to vote for someone (and/or advocating that others do so as well), then I don't "support" him at all.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 05-28-2023 at 08:59 AM.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    @jmdrake

    You are attempting to justify placing "bans" on large groups of people and/or entire countries. There are already laws that can be applied to deal with individuals. The same goes for murder, arson, etc.
    So....are you for or against the current ban on child porn? That's a yes or no question. Child porn was legal to consume in the U.S., though not produce, until 1977. (Yeah, I looked it up to be sure). As for laws against murder, would it be okay to allow the import of body parts from murder victims? Another "yes or no" question. I'm not asking the gubmint to go into China and stop the CCP from murdering Faulun Gong practitioners. But I don't think people should say "Hey! They're getting killed anyway. I guess I can get a new heart out of the deal."

    Do you remember this?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...prisoners.html



    Yeah. I'm not at all bothered by restricting someone's "freedom" to fund the CCP murder of political prisoners because he thinks it's cool to look at corpses.

    How do I know what happens or how each individual is treated in a large semi-conductor plant over in China, India, or wherever? Or what happens to employees who manufactures/forms steel in a processing facility?
    You know you're making my argument FOR ME? You're right. It's impossible for one individual to know that. Not so hard for a larger body of society (i.e. a government) to figure that out. It wasn't hard to figure out the CCP was renting corpses of political dissidents. It wasn't hard to find out about Apple factories having "suicide nets" to prevent the slaves from committing suicide. And is any system going to be perfect? Of course not. But if an importer knows there are consequences to bringing in millions of widgets that it knows are produced by slave labor, then maybe that importer will think twice. The big corporations that do the visit the factories before placing the orders. (I'm not talking about the small guy that just buys a few hundred water bottles off of Alibaba to flip on Amazon). Now, if you really want to travel to China and buy a slave made widget or a heart from a political prisoner or some child porn, I'm not going to stop you. But if you're going to bring in millions of slave produced widgets, child porn videos or political prisoner hearts....well I hope RFK Jr. would. Which is the funny thing about this entire thread. This is YOUR candidate! And...I happen to agree with him...kinda.

    You are suggesting that I become "The Worlds Police", or have our country be The Worlds Police (which this Empire already is) to place "bans" on large groups of people and/or entire nations, which I will not advocate or do. As I stated before, if people feel like, or are treated as slaves, sexual or otherwise, they can quit, revolt or flee. The people of that community in other countries can/should address any other problems that they have a problem with. Just like we should do here at home.
    I love you bro, but ^that is not a coherent statement. How am I wanting you to police anything? And again, this is YOUR candidate we're talking about here! Anyway, arresting an American on American soil for child porn is not "policing the world." Stopping an American hospital from implanting a heart known to be taken from a political prisoner is not "policing the world." Telling Apple "We know you're using a factory that employs slave labor. If you keep using that factor you can't sell those phones here." is not "policing the world." Policing the world is literally going into another country and enforcing your laws. You cheapen the phrase by misusing it.

    This is not a justification, but consider this: 100 employees are paid a "substandard" wage, say for example in Viet Nam (according to what you believe a wage should be, and compared to wages in the United States). They are able to survive, feed their families, buy toys, tv's and cars. By placing a "ban" against large groups of people or an entire country, the factory/company will no longer have purchasers, commerce stops and those employees will ultimately lose their jobs. Wow, a lot of good you just did by placing that "ban", don't you feel swell?
    Apples and orangutans. I'm ambivalent about the minimum wage in this country so why the hell would I care about the minimum wage somewhere else? The idea of "slave wages" is a Marxist trope. If you agree to work for $1.00 an hour or even if you AGREE to work for FREE that is NOT slavery! Slavery is when I put a gun to your head and FORCE you to work for me! I could even pay you to work for and pay you well, but if I force you that is still slavery! You can't have a free market without freedom. And one of the most basic freedoms in the world is the freedom to leave a job you don't like.

    Sorry, but I don't buy into being "The Worlds Police".
    Sorry, but that's a straw man argument you created just to knock down.


    People of other countries have standards of living, customs, and other things that you may or may not agree with. It is up to the People in those areas, where they live, to address whatever problems they may have. Or, perhaps Canada should place a ban on the United States, because the employees of R&R Plastics in the next town over complain that they are treated like slaves (I hear it often), even though they make $18.50/hour?
    You're using Marxist ideology to advance your argument. As long as you are allowed to quit a job you are not a slave. Even if quitting the job means you might starve because there aren't any other jobs around, if you can quit you're not a slave and that's especially true if you are allowed to travel. There is an old African American proverb "I'd drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log than to stay in Mississippi and be treated like a dog." (No offense to Mississippi. That's just the way the rhyme went.) Post slavery, some African Americans like in slave like conditions when it came to poverty, but they were able to leave. Many left and went North and worked in factories. Others found ways to improve their situation where they lived. Regardless, if you don't understand the fundamental difference between actual slavery and the Marxist idea of "slave labor" than it's impossible for us to have an intellectual conversation on this matter.


    I will also stand by my very firm position that while "child labor" is frowned upon here, illegal even, 12, 13, 14 years olds who work in other countries are doing something productive to earn a wage and learn actual responsibility.
    There is no legitimate reason to "frown" on child labor and it's not illegal. I worked in a factory at 14. I worked on a farm at 12. Child labor is restricted but not illegal. Early in American history whole families worked together in factories.

    While the same in America play video games all day/night, are obese, dumbed down by an education system and don't even know how to put a set of plugs in a car, while learning about/contemplating what sex they want to be. Had I started doing residential/commercial wiring at 12 years old today, like I did decades ago, my old man would be thrown in prison and I would be hauled away.
    Again, this has nothing to do with SLAVERY and you need to know the difference. That said, it's legal for a 12 year old to work in a family business as long as the work isn't dangerous. Electrical work may or may not be dangerous. If you're doing a rough in on a new construction there is no danger as the wiring isn't connected to anything yet.

    https://smallbusiness.chron.com/12-y...ess-61984.html

    Which Hours Are Children Allowed to Work?
    12-year-old children are allowed to work for their parents on the condition that their parents are the sole owners of the business they are working for. They can work at any time of day and for any number of hours, according to federal family business child labor laws. There may, however, be restrictions at the state level. Some state laws do not allow parents to make their 12 year olds work during certain hours when they are meant to be in school, as stipulated by school attendance laws.

    When there is conflict between federal and state laws concerning child labor, the parents are required to comply with the higher standard. In Alabama, all children under the age of 16 are restricted to eight hours of work a day, 40 hours of work a week, and six days a week. The state of Idaho, on the other hand, has laxer laws that allow children under the age of 16 to work nine hours a day and 54 hours a week. The children, however, are not allowed to work between the hours of 9 p.m. and 6 a.m.

    Which Jobs Are Prohibited for Children?
    Twelve-year-old children are allowed to work in a business that's owned and operated by their families, provided the jobs for 12 year olds do not involve hazardous or dangerous occupations. An example of an occupation considered hazardous is any job that involves the use of machines to process meat and package it, roofing jobs, window washing jobs, jobs that require workers to work on a scaffold, jobs that involve operating motor vehicles or wrecking them, and manufacturing jobs.

    You don't like bans. Aren't bans better than war?
    Not when used/enforced by government(s).
    Ok. Well I agree with RFK Jr. on this more than I agree with you. But my agreement is limited to issues of human freedom. No child porn. No body parts from political prisoners. No mass importation of widgets known to be produced by people not allowed to quit their job. (I.e. slaves). I don't care about child labor (I did that myself) or low wages (you can contract for as cheap of a wage as you like).
    Last edited by jmdrake; 05-28-2023 at 08:49 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    @Occam's Banana @Anti Federalist , ponder this:

    RFK Jr. routinely refers to and defends the Bill of Rights, citing specific examples of how they were violated, which more people need to hear. Considering that his father and uncle were assassinated, and he doesn't speak about the 2nd A (if he has, please cite the source), I consider RFK Jr. to be "gun shy" - not gun control, simply because he has not "controlled" anything.

    Also consider that because he believes that the CIA had involvement in the assassinations, he understands that nobody is going to take government agencies guns away.

    As I have stated previously, Obama sold more guns than any other president [free advertising]; it is up to the People to defend/protect their rights, not politicians.

    The 2nd A is not a concern for me. There are other more pressing issues that need to be dealt with, such as corporate capture/lobbyists, which drive things such as Anti-gun, LGBTQ, War, etc. etc. etc. and other campaigns.
    That's nice. I'm happy for you. And for the record, I'm not too worried that RFK Jr. or anyone else is going to be coming for all our guns (if only as a matter of practical logistics).

    But if it's all the same to you, I'm not going to give a whole lot of credit to any defense (or defender) of the Bill of Rights in which (or for whom) a full-throated advocacy of the principle behind the 2nd Amendment does not figure prominently front-and-center. The right to keep and bear arms as the ultimate recourse against tyranny is the wellspring of the effective defense of all other rights, and any "defense" of those other rights that cannot be bothered to make clear and emphatic reference to the critical importance of the right to keep and bear arms is simply not to be taken seriously. Such "defenses" are merely pleasant-sounding but empty words coming from a mouth with no teeth.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 05-29-2023 at 05:41 AM.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    @Occam's Banana @Anti Federalist , ponder this:

    RFK Jr. routinely refers to and defends the Bill of Rights, citing specific examples of how they were violated, which more people need to hear. Considering that his father and uncle were assassinated, and he doesn't speak about the 2nd A (if he has, please cite the source), I consider RFK Jr. to be "gun shy" - not gun control, simply because he has not "controlled" anything.

    Also consider that because he believes that the CIA had involvement in the assassinations, he understands that nobody is going to take government agencies guns away.

    As I have stated previously, Obama sold more guns than any other president [free advertising]; it is up to the People to defend/protect their rights, not politicians.

    The 2nd A is not a concern for me. There are other more pressing issues that need to be dealt with, such as corporate capture/lobbyists, which drive things such as Anti-gun, LGBTQ, War, etc. etc. etc. and other campaigns.
    I know you didn't ask me but......

    If RFK Jr. successfully stopped importation of slave labor produced goods that would in no way limit my freedom. I could still buy those goods, they just might cost a bit more.

    If RFJ Jr. successfully stopped the domestic production and importation of semiautomatic rifles with magazines, that would limit my freedom. I would have a hard time buying those goods at all. Yeah I could illegally buy them but I don't want to take that risk. I could make them I suppose but I'm not that mechanically inclined.

    Now I hear what you're saying. RFK Jr. has said he defends the Bill of Rights. The ACLU says that too but somehow they never stand up for the 2nd amendment. And some people say they stand up for the 2nd amendment but believe there are "reasonable" exceptions.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    But if it's all the same to you, I'm not going to give a whole lot of credit to any defense (or defender) of the Bill of Rights in which (or for whom) a full-throated advocacy the 2nd Amendment does not figure prominently front-and-center.
    I certainly understand that. These, however, are extraordinary times. If RFKJr is genuine on these other things, then the question, "What will he do as president?" becomes a more open question, and might even be irrelevant. In this, I'm more in line with Anti Federalist. I'm not so interested in his presidency as getting him into the office alive--at least for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    The right to keep and bear arms is the ultimate and indispensable wellspring of the defense of all other rights, and any defense of those other rights that cannot be bothered to make clear and emphatic reference to the critical importance of the right to keep and bear arms is simply not to be taken seriously. Such "defenses" are merely empty words from a mouth with no teeth.
    If and when he gets sworn in, he'll have a very good idea what the public needs to cause the powers that be to cower. If that direct knowledge doesn't fundamentally affect his attitude toward a well-armed populace, we'll know we bought another ringer. And in this case, that could have the same effect on the populace as making a martyr of him.

    Bottom line: If he wants to make a martyr of himself, I want to make him popular enough to be an effective martyr.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-28-2023 at 09:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    That's nice. I'm happy for you. And for the record, I'm not too worried that RFK Jr. or anyone else is going to be coming for all our guns (if only as a matter of practical logistics).
    I am. In CT for example, the state house just passed a bill that removes "grandfathering" clauses for owners of previously legal rifles.

    Register them, destroy them, sell them out of state or turn them in. Once "registered" of course, then it's no problem to confiscate them. See: New Orleans after Katrina 2005.

    Once precedent is set, the "law abiding" will follow. They know the state will not prosecute mugger-rapers and father-stabbers with one tenth the ferocity they will to anyone who dares defy their mandates and edicts or disrespects The Cathedral..

    But if it's all the same to you, I'm not going to give a whole lot of credit to any defense (or defender) of the Bill of Rights in which (or for whom) a full-throated advocacy of the principle behind the 2nd Amendment does not figure prominently front-and-center. The right to keep and bear arms as the ultimate recourse against tyranny is the wellspring of the defense of all other rights, and any defense of those other rights that cannot be bothered to make clear and emphatic reference to the critical importance of the right to keep and bear arms is simply not to be taken seriously. Such "defenses" are merely empty words coming from a mouth with no teeth.
    And this is where the rubber meets the road. Could not have stated it better myself.

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Occam's Banana again.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 05-28-2023 at 09:11 AM.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You are tired of waiting. You are more than ready for the brushfires of the mind to manifest in some real fires. But you don't think putting these powers that be in the position of having to rub the public's nose in it by killing a fourth Kennedy could possibly help bring that to pass?

    You want a Kennedy? No. You can't have one. Oh, yeah. I want to make the head psychos in charge say that.
    Hmmm...interesting.

    If I'm understanding you correctly: it would piss people off much more if they killed yet another Kennedy, as opposed to killing Trump.

    And then, one way or another, $#@! would change, which is what I want.

    If that's the upshot, then yeah, I reckon you're probably right.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So....are you for or against the current ban on child porn? That's a yes or no question. Child porn was legal to consume in the U.S., though not produce, until 1977. (Yeah, I looked it up to be sure). As for laws against murder, would it be okay to allow the import of body parts from murder victims? Another "yes or no" question. I'm not asking the gubmint to go into China and stop the CCP from murdering Faulun Gong practitioners. But I don't think people should say "Hey! They're getting killed anyway. I guess I can get a new heart out of the deal."

    Do you remember this?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...prisoners.html



    Yeah. I'm not at all bothered by restricting someone's "freedom" to fund the CCP murder of political prisoners because he thinks it's cool to look at corpses.



    You know you're making my argument FOR ME? You're right. It's impossible for one individual to know that. Not so hard for a larger body of society (i.e. a government) to figure that out. It wasn't hard to figure out the CCP was renting corpses of political dissidents. It wasn't hard to find out about Apple factories having "suicide nets" to prevent the slaves from committing suicide. And is any system going to be perfect? Of course not. But if an importer knows there are consequences to bringing in millions of widgets that it knows are produced by slave labor, then maybe that importer will think twice. The big corporations that do the visit the factories before placing the orders. (I'm not talking about the small guy that just buys a few hundred water bottles off of Alibaba to flip on Amazon). Now, if you really want to travel to China and buy a slave made widget or a heart from a political prisoner or some child porn, I'm not going to stop you. But if you're going to bring in millions of slave produced widgets, child porn videos or political prisoner hearts....well I hope RFK Jr. would. Which is the funny thing about this entire thread. This is YOUR candidate! And...I happen to agree with him...kinda.



    I love you bro, but ^that is not a coherent statement. How am I wanting you to police anything? And again, this is YOUR candidate we're talking about here! Anyway, arresting an American on American soil for child porn is not "policing the world." Stopping an American hospital from implanting a heart known to be taken from a political prisoner is not "policing the world." Telling Apple "We know you're using a factory that employs slave labor. If you keep using that factor you can't sell those phones here." is not "policing the world." Policing the world is literally going into another country and enforcing your laws. You cheapen the phrase by misusing it.



    Apples and orangutans. I'm ambivalent about the minimum wage in this country so why the hell would I care about the minimum wage somewhere else? The idea of "slave wages" is a Marxist trope. If you agree to work for $1.00 an hour or even if you AGREE to work for FREE that is NOT slavery! Slavery is when I put a gun to your head and FORCE you to work for me! I could even pay you to work for and pay you well, but if I force you that is still slavery! You can't have a free market without freedom. And one of the most basic freedoms in the world is the freedom to leave a job you don't like.



    Sorry, but that's a straw man argument you created just to knock down.




    You're using Marxist ideology to advance your argument. As long as you are allowed to quit a job you are not a slave. Even if quitting the job means you might starve because there aren't any other jobs around, if you can quit you're not a slave and that's especially true if you are allowed to travel. There is an old African American proverb "I'd drink muddy water and sleep in a hollow log than to stay in Mississippi and be treated like a dog." (No offense to Mississippi. That's just the way the rhyme went.) Post slavery, some African Americans like in slave like conditions when it came to poverty, but they were able to leave. Many left and went North and worked in factories. Others found ways to improve their situation where they lived. Regardless, if you don't understand the fundamental difference between actual slavery and the Marxist idea of "slave labor" than it's impossible for us to have an intellectual conversation on this matter.




    There is no legitimate reason to "frown" on child labor and it's not illegal. I worked in a factory at 14. I worked on a farm at 12. Child labor is restricted but not illegal. Early in American history whole families worked together in factories.



    Again, this has nothing to do with SLAVERY and you need to know the difference. That said, it's legal for a 12 year old to work in a family business as long as the work isn't dangerous. Electrical work may or may not be dangerous. If you're doing a rough in on a new construction there is no danger as the wiring isn't connected to anything yet.

    https://smallbusiness.chron.com/12-y...ess-61984.html

    Which Hours Are Children Allowed to Work?
    12-year-old children are allowed to work for their parents on the condition that their parents are the sole owners of the business they are working for. They can work at any time of day and for any number of hours, according to federal family business child labor laws. There may, however, be restrictions at the state level. Some state laws do not allow parents to make their 12 year olds work during certain hours when they are meant to be in school, as stipulated by school attendance laws.

    When there is conflict between federal and state laws concerning child labor, the parents are required to comply with the higher standard. In Alabama, all children under the age of 16 are restricted to eight hours of work a day, 40 hours of work a week, and six days a week. The state of Idaho, on the other hand, has laxer laws that allow children under the age of 16 to work nine hours a day and 54 hours a week. The children, however, are not allowed to work between the hours of 9 p.m. and 6 a.m.

    Which Jobs Are Prohibited for Children?
    Twelve-year-old children are allowed to work in a business that's owned and operated by their families, provided the jobs for 12 year olds do not involve hazardous or dangerous occupations. An example of an occupation considered hazardous is any job that involves the use of machines to process meat and package it, roofing jobs, window washing jobs, jobs that require workers to work on a scaffold, jobs that involve operating motor vehicles or wrecking them, and manufacturing jobs.



    Ok. Well I agree with RFK Jr. on this more than I agree with you. But my agreement is limited to issues of human freedom. No child porn. No body parts from political prisoners. No mass importation of widgets known to be produced by people not allowed to quit their job. (I.e. slaves). I don't care about child labor (I did that myself) or low wages (you can contract for as cheap of a wage as you like).
    Wow, jmdrake, that's a lot. So allow me to sum it:

    You can not legislate morality. But if a child [or grown-up] is harmed in any way, sexually, slave labor, or otherwise, there are laws already on the books. The accused gets a court date, a jury, and a verdict. You as an attorney should know that. Government(s) "banning" will do nothing but drive things underground, and as a byproduct in the case of banning entire countries, affect innocent by-standers who have no involvement. This may sound contradictory to you and perhaps some others, and if it is; I am staying grounded that outside of family and local community, the federal government's role is not to decide/enforce moral behavior. If you personally want to ban, then ban.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Hmmm...interesting.

    If I'm understanding you correctly: it would piss people off much more if they killed yet another Kennedy, as opposed to killing Trump.
    Um, maybe? Who killed Trump? I haven't seen anything more done to him but serving search warrants on him and fingering Melanie's unmentionables. Just enough to give him street cred. Trump could make a good martyr. Problem is, nobody is shooting at him, and I don't think the people who could pull it off want to.

    Otherwise, yes. A Kennedy could get popular enough to become a martyr. And if he's serious about One, Two and Three above, his road to the White House likely includes an attempt to make him one.

    I think he could get us down to the nitty gritty. Any advantage to us for putting it off?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-28-2023 at 09:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

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