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Thread: Questioning Some Libertarian Sacred Cows

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    Ethical principles cannot be proved.
    Actually, I believe they can. And it does not violate "principia probant, non probantur", because that is not the meaning of the latter.

    The Cardinal Postulate (CPos): All men are equally endowed with life. One either accepts it, prima facie, as true or rejects it. If accepted, the basis for all principles of proper human relations is established, just like magic.

    If you reject, I can keep you busy literally for the rest of your life with questions, the answers to which are arbitrary and thereby non-definitive, dropping you into an infinite regression of equivalent questions at each "level" of inquiry with no possibility of an answer striking upon an irreducible invariant. It would get ugly within five to ten minutes, as well as clearly hopeless, and you would get bored and aggravated soon thereafter, at which point you would likely have to concede the point or just stomp off in a huff.

    But once accepted as true, the CPos opens the door widely to sight and understanding of the proprieties between men. They are few, simple, elegant, rigorously correct, complete, and sufficient for the resolution of virtually all questions of human interaction.

    But to stick to the point and demonstrate, given the CPos, the First Prime Corollary then follows, stating: "All men hold equal claims to life". I note here that my Canon of Proper Human Relations is something of incomplete in that it neglects to go into the details of the claim to life that men make. Suffice to say that life claims itself. I have yet to see a single example contrary. Perhaps the CPos is a two-part affair... I will have to revisit this one day.

    All men are equally endowed with life, life claims itself as its own property, and all men hold precisely equal claims to life.

    Now, I recently stumbled upon an countering question one might make regarding the claim to life, with goes roughly like this: "By what authority does the individual claim his own life?" The answer to this is to turn the question upon the inquirer: "By what authority does anyone deny the claim of a man to his own life?" See how the sword cuts both ways. And once again we also can see that any attempt to justify one man's denial of the claim of another to his own life results in an endless loop of questions, the answers to which are perforce arbitrary and unsatisfactory.

    These elements are self-proving because they are self-evident or, barring the latter, eminently demonstrable. They are immune to differences in points of view because regardless of said points, I can engage the Socratic method and through nothing much more than asking questions, may render demolished any other philosophical perspective. Why? Because questions tend to expose the weaknesses in faulty world views. Understanding the prominent position and power of the irreducible invariant can hardly be overstated. It allows one to expose the arbitrariness of views, and thereby their falsity when beaten against the standard of Life itself. Life and all that it implies for us is the proper frame of reference which men may take as effectively absolute. Life is the absolute measure of all we do and think because it is the one thing that is common to all men. We are, each and every one of us, alive.

    Ethical principles are expressions of subjective preference.
    Only the faulty ones are. The correct ones are objectively demonstrable because there exists the universally applicable standard of Life.

    Any ethics invariably benefits some people at the expense of others.
    If this is so, onus would rest with you to prove it. I assert that this is wholly false in the case of the right and truthful principles precisely because the benefits enjoyed are those to which one are by right entitled. Those for whom a benefit is denied, are denied because those people never had a right to it in the first place.

    e.g. A prohibition on murder benefits would-be victims at the expense of would-be murderers.
    Case in point. The would-be victims' valid and demonstrable claims to life are justly recognized and protected. The would-be murderers' demonstrably void claims to the lives of the would-be victims are justly relegated to non-recognized status because they never existed in the first place.

    There is no such thing as a universal morality so long as people disagree about things, have mutually exclusive desires.
    You are gravely mistaken, mon ami. There is a universal morality, and I have demonstrated the root of it in this very post. Through my methods, which are not my methods, I claim that I can identify and demolish any false moral principle set before me. This is a very bold claim, yet I am confident in my ability. I remain open to amending my view if I am presented with damning evidence to the contrary, but until that time, I remain staid.

    Hence, ethics is always about imposing one's will on others by force.
    If one has the right ethic in hand, this is not a bad thing, just as imposing murder laws upon all is demonstrably just.

    Empire humanity has been dancing around the crucial points of proper morality for a short aeon. Why they have failed to identify that which I have apparently succeeded in uncovering, is a mystery to me. I do, however, feel that the root of the failure rests in the clouding of men's thoughts with the various noises that are attendant in proportion to the complexity of their lives. I long ago discovered the relationship between signal and noise and realized that the attenuation of the latter is paramount to clear thinking. Reducing an issue to its primitive components and forsaking all else, the basis of what I call "noiseless analysis", permits one to zero in on that which counts, to the exclusion of that which serves only to distract. I came upon this during my computer science studies, graph theory in particular, where the brilliant men who invented the discipline clearly understood the roles of signal and noise and contrived a system of graphic representation that gave men the ability to eliminate the disruptive elements of a problem such that they could focus on the relevant essentials. To those men the world owes a debt of endless gratitude.

    Through my application of noiseless analysis, I have identified a core set of principles that I defy any man to credibly repudiate. I suppose it may be possible, but until I see it, I will remain unconvinced.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    You say "fail," but nowhere did you show why the arrangement is involuntary.
    I most certainly did. Read again. And again. Rinse and repeat until it becomes clear.

    The rest of your post strikes me as disingenuous and gratuitous trollery. I cannot explain myself any better than I have so how about we say that you win and I lose because I am a dumbass incapable of proper linguistic transaction? I'm good with it.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    Then you don't have a problem with voluntary slavery, since it's the same thing, except the term of service may be life.
    I see someone needs more linguistic study.


    How's about we get basic and see what a dictionary says about the words you have chosen.

    voluntary

    adjective1.done, made, brought about, undertaken, etc., of one's own accord orby free choice:a voluntary contribution.


    2.of, relating to, or acting in accord with the will:voluntary cooperation.


    4.Law.
    • acting or done without compulsion or obligation.
    • done by intention, and not by accident:voluntary manslaughter.



    5.Physiology. subject to or controlled by the will.

    6.having the power of willing or choosing:a voluntary agent.


    7.proceeding from a natural impulse; spontaneous:

    voluntarylaughter.
    And now for slavery:

    slavery

    noun1.the condition of a slave; bondage.

    2.the keeping of slaves as a practice or institution.

    3.a state of subjection like that of a slave : He was kept in slavery by drugs.




    And for the sake of completeness, "slave".

    slave


    noun
    1.a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bondservant.

    2.a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person:

    aslavetoadrug.
    "Bondservant":

    noun1.a person who serves in bondage; slave.




    "Bondage":

    noun1.slavery or involuntary servitude; serfdom.

    2.the state of being bound by or subjected to some external power or control.






    As we can readily see, "voluntary slavery" is a contradiction in terms; an oxymoron.

    "Voluntary slavery" does not exist.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  5. #94
    I think I depart from you there osan.

    every slave makes a choice of pacifism in the face of his master

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I think I depart from you there osan.
    I'm with osan.

    every slave makes a choice of pacifism in the face of his master
    Not necessarily. Many fought, many ran and even the ones who didn't, didn't necessarily sign up to be slaves voluntarily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Many fought, many ran
    then they weren't slaves

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    then they weren't slaves
    And they didn't sign up for it voluntarily. Many babies are/were born into slavery. They never signed $#@! and and CAN'T stand up to their master. How is slavery voluntary in those cases?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    And they didn't sign up for it voluntarily. Many babies are/were born into slavery. They never signed $#@! and and CAN'T stand up to their master. How is slavery voluntary in those cases?
    I take enslavement to be a state of mind not a state of being
    a free man needn't succeed in physically freeing his body to be free
    he just needs to know seeking such dissolution of the master's entanglement, by whatever means, is among his options

    regarding the child; born into physical bondage;
    at some point that child chooses to accept the state of bondage
    or come's to terms with his inherent authority to free himself
    it is in the mindset the slave is born not the condition

    is a captive plotting to kill his cruel master a slave or a free man?
    Last edited by presence; 03-05-2017 at 10:42 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I take enslavement to be a state of mind not a state of being
    a free man needn't succeed in physically freeing his body to be free
    he just needs to know seeking such dissolution of the master's entanglement, by whatever means, is among his options

    regarding the child; born into physical bondage;
    at some point that child chooses to accept the state of bondage
    or come's to terms with his inherent authority to free himself
    it is in the mindset the slave is born not the condition
    None of this negates the fact that their condition was entered into involuntarily. Can they choose to stay? Sure, but that doesn't mean they chose to be slaves to begin with - mentally or physically.

    is a captive plotting to kill his cruel master a slave or a free man?
    If he's captive, he's a slave whether he's plotting to kill his master or not. Even if mentally he's freed himself he is still physically in a state of slavery. If he's there voluntarily, he's not a slave. He may very well be stupid but he's not a slave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The Cardinal Postulate (CPos): All men are equally endowed with life. One either accepts it, prima facie, as true or rejects it. If accepted, the basis for all principles of proper human relations is established, just like magic.
    In other words, the principle must be assumed to be true; it cannot be proven true. QED.

    But once accepted as true, the CPos opens the door widely to sight and understanding of the proprieties between men. They are few, simple, elegant, rigorously correct, complete, and sufficient for the resolution of virtually all questions of human interaction.
    That you like and find useful the conclusions which can be deduced from your principle does not prove the principle.

    If this is so, onus would rest with you to prove it.
    I've already explained how your "cardinal postulate" benefits some and harms others: namely, it benefits would-be murder victims and harms would-be murderers. If you'd like to come up with another example of an ethical principle, I'll be happy to explain how that too benefits some and harms others.

    An ethical principle is a command, Osan: "thou shalt not do X." If there were no one who wanted to do X, there would be no need for the command, would there be? That you're commanding someone to not do X, means you are commanding someone to not do something they want to do. It is for this reason that every ethical principle is necessarily benefiting someone (whoever doesn't want people to do X) at the expense of someone else (whoever wants to do X).

    Case in point. The would-be victims' valid and demonstrable claims to life are justly recognized and protected. The would-be murderers' demonstrably void claims to the lives of the would-be victims are justly relegated to non-recognized status because they never existed in the first place.
    You can only dismiss the would-be murderers' claims by presupposing what you're trying to prove.

    Empire humanity has been dancing around the crucial points of proper morality for a short aeon. Why they have failed to identify that which I have apparently succeeded in uncovering, is a mystery to me.
    It's because philosophers realized a long time ago that what you're trying to do (prove ethics) is impossible in principle.

    Through my application of noiseless analysis, I have identified a core set of principles that I defy any man to credibly repudiate. I suppose it may be possible, but until I see it, I will remain unconvinced.
    There's nothing to rebut. Your "proof" of your principle consists in assuming that it's true. That's not what "proof" is, Osan.

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I most certainly did. Read again. And again. Rinse and repeat until it becomes clear.
    Nowhere did you explain why a landlord choosing the price at which to offer his rentals violates anyone's rights.

    Putting aside the world communism scenario, let's talk about a regular landlord, e.g. a guy who owns a duplex.

    Can he not ask whatever he likes for his rentals?

    Are you seriously claiming that the libertarian position is that tenants can force a landlord to rent at a price below what he wants?

    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I see someone needs more linguistic study.

    How's about we get basic and see what a dictionary says about the words you have chosen.

    And now for slavery:

    [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR]

    [/FONT][/COLOR]

    And for the sake of completeness, "slave".

    "Bondservant":

    [/FONT][/COLOR]

    [/FONT][/COLOR]
    "Bondage":

    As we can readily see, "voluntary slavery" is a contradiction in terms; an oxymoron.

    "Voluntary slavery" does not exist.
    Uh huh...

    Let me offer up an analogous "argument."

    Jumbo, adjective: very large

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/jumbo?s=t

    Shrimp, noun: a very small or puny person or thing

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shrimp

    Therefore....



    ....this ^^^ is a logical contradiction. It can't exist.

    Good argument, Osan?

    Or could it be that words have different meanings in different contexts, and you can't claim that the concept of voluntary slavery is contradictory just because the dictionary definitions of "voluntary" and "slavery" are contradictory: as you can't claim that jumbo shrimp such as the one in the photo are a logical contradiction because the dictionary definitions of "jumbo" and "shrimp" are contradictory?
    Last edited by MallsRGood; 03-05-2017 at 01:57 PM.

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    How are murderers entitled to their ends?
    They're not, in my opinion.

    Emphasis on: opinion.

    The point is that it's a value judgement: not something that can be "proved," as Osan is trying to do.

    I am valuing the well-being of the would-be victims over that of the would-be murderers.

    I am NOT "proving" that the would-be victims are entitled to live or that would-be murders are not entitled to kill.

    That is not something that can be proved.

    Ethics In a Nutshell:
    -people have mutually exclusive desires
    -ethics is about choosing whose desires get satisfied
    -Ethics is NOT about proving whose desires are "right"
    Last edited by MallsRGood; 03-05-2017 at 03:05 PM.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    In other words, the principle must be assumed to be true; it cannot be proven true. QED.
    Your reasoning skills need work. It is the Cardinal POSTULATE. While a postulate can be a principle, most often it is not. This is one of the "not" cases, which should be obvious to anyone. It is a statement of fact. "The sun shines" is a postulation, not a principle.

    Postulate:

    noun5.something taken as self-evident or assumed without proof as a basisfor reasoning.

    That you like and find useful the conclusions which can be deduced from your principle does not prove the principle.
    Then disprove it. You made the claim. Now back it up. I've done my part.

    I've already explained how your "cardinal postulate" benefits some and harms others: namely, it benefits would-be murder victims and harms would-be murderers. If you'd like to come up with another example of an ethical principle, I'll be happy to explain how that too benefits some and harms others.
    Your explanation was pure nonsense and I demonstrated why, as I believe others have as well, if not in quite the same detail. You are propounding nonsense.

    An ethical principle is a command, Osan: "thou shalt not do X."
    Another lie. It can be that, or it can be a guideline, or may operate strictly through implication, the individual to take it as he pleases. It may also be based on simple empirical observation, taking the form, "if you do X, Y will result", the consequence, Y, usually being something unpleasant. There are ethics relating to murder. There are also ethics relating to the blurting out of truths in polite company that are considered to generate an unpleasant atmosphere, or are simply looked upon as déclassé. There is no imperative not to say them, but only tacit pressure not to. Ethics covers a broad spectrum of moral considerations. You chose a subset and declared it the superset. FAIL.

    If there were no one who wanted to do X, there would be no need for the command, would there be? That you're commanding someone to not do X, means you are commanding someone to not do something they want to do. It is for this reason that every ethical principle is necessarily benefiting someone (whoever doesn't want people to do X) at the expense of someone else (whoever wants to do X).
    I don't know if you are being disingenuous or you really know so little about reasoning.

    It just gets worse and worse. I am finished. Say what you wish. Believe what you wish. It matters no whit to me.

    Over and out.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  15. #103
    ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS IS WHO IS A)IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO A MORALLY CHARGED ACTION B)IS WILLING TO RESPOND OR PRE-EMPT SAID ACTION

    AGAIN, IT IS NOT WHO WILL MAKE A LAW THAT MURDER IS WRONG, IT IS WHO WILL STOP OR RESPOND TO MURDER WITH MURDER AND/OR KIDNAPPING

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    None of this negates the fact that their condition was entered into involuntarily. Can they choose to stay? Sure, but that doesn't mean they chose to be slaves to begin with - mentally or physically.

    If he's captive, he's a slave whether he's plotting to kill his master or not. Even if mentally he's freed himself he is still physically in a state of slavery. If he's there voluntarily, he's not a slave. He may very well be stupid but he's not a slave.
    Look at Suz getting all intellectual and such like.

    wait... Mr. Animal?
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Your reasoning skills need work. It is the Cardinal POSTULATE. While a postulate can be a principle, most often it is not. This is one of the "not" cases, which should be obvious to anyone. It is a statement of fact. "The sun shines" is a postulation, not a principle.

    Postulate:

    noun5.something taken as self-evident or assumed without proof as a basisfor reasoning.
    Exactly.

    That's my point (!)

    You're merely assuming that the "cardinal postulate" is true; you have proved nothing.

    Then disprove it. You made the claim. Now back it up. I've done my part.
    Disprove what? Your assumption that the "cardinal postulate" is true?

    ...?

    Let's try it the other way around...

    Suppose I assume that "redheads do not have the right to own cars" is true. Now...disprove it.

    Of course, you can't. Ethical propositions cannot be proved, or disproved. They do not have truth-value, because they do not refer to objective reality. They express subjective preferences, ala "steak is tastier than hamburger," or "Mozart sounds better than Bach."

    Another lie. It can be that, or it can be a guideline, or may operate strictly through implication, the individual to take it as he pleases. It may also be based on simple empirical observation, taking the form, "if you do X, Y will result", the consequence, Y, usually being something unpleasant. There are ethics relating to murder. There are also ethics relating to the blurting out of truths in polite company that are considered to generate an unpleasant atmosphere, or are simply looked upon as déclassé. There is no imperative not to say them, but only tacit pressure not to. Ethics covers a broad spectrum of moral considerations. You chose a subset and declared it the superset. FAIL.
    Libertarian ethics such as "don't murder" or "don't steal" aren't intended to be suggestions. They're intended to be rules. And some people don't want to follow those rules. Hence, in enforcing them, you are harming some (those who don't want to follow the rule) to benefit others (those who want the rule followed).

    Your explanation was pure nonsense and I demonstrated why, as I believe others have as well, if not in quite the same detail. You are propounding nonsense.
    I don't know if you are being disingenuous or you really know so little about reasoning.

    It just gets worse and worse. I am finished. Say what you wish. Believe what you wish. It matters no whit to me.

    Over and out.
    ...handwavium and ad hominems.
    Last edited by MallsRGood; 03-06-2017 at 11:05 AM.

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post


    Uh huh...

    Let me offer up an analogous "argument."

    Jumbo, adjective: very large

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/jumbo?s=t

    Shrimp, noun: a very small or puny person or thing

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shrimp

    Therefore....



    ....this ^^^ is a logical contradiction. It can't exist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrimp

    http://www.phillyseafood.com/shrimp-size-chart



    Please make an attempt at a serious argument.. Obvious trolling is obvious.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    To elaborate a bit...

    What is the difference between a corporation with 1000 equal shareholders and democracy with 1000 voters?
    One is a business model,, the other is a governmental failure.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    Look at Suz getting all intellectual and such like.

    wait... Mr. Animal?
    Nah, that was me.


    ....or was it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrimp

    http://www.phillyseafood.com/shrimp-size-chart



    Please make an attempt at a serious argument.. Obvious trolling is obvious.
    Huh..?

    I think you didn't understand the point....

    Reread Osan's post I was quoting, then reread mine.

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    Huh..?

    I think you didn't understand the point....

    Reread Osan's post I was quoting, then reread mine.
    OK,,
    I did.
    Your post is still a poor attempt at sophomoric humor.
    aka trolling
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  24. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    OK,,
    I did.
    Your post is still a poor attempt at sophomoric humor.
    aka trolling
    Once again, if you thought my comment was intended as a joke/trolling, you didn't understand it.

    Osan was arguing that voluntary slavery is contradictory because the dictionary definitions of the words "voluntary" and "slavery" contradict. My analogy was intended to demonstrate the fallacy in that reasoning. Namely, the meaning of a term is not always evident from the dictionary definitions of the words contained in the term. The meaning of the term "voluntary slavery," as meant by Block, Rothbard, or myself, cannot be determined by taking Webster's definition of "voluntary" and "slavery" and mashing them together. Likewise with the term "jumbo shrimp," which only appears contradictory if you take the dictionary definitions of the words and mash them together.
    Last edited by MallsRGood; 03-06-2017 at 09:06 PM.

  25. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by MallsRGood View Post
    My analogy was intended to demonstrate the fallacy in that reasoning.
    It failed to do so.

    Voluntary servitude I can understand.

    But service is not necessarily slavery. and slavery by definition is involuntary.

    And I have hung out on docks(and bars) with shrimpers.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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