55% of non native households collect gov. benefits as opposed to 32% of native born

[Invisible Man]

Irrelevant.
They scam those too.

If so, then that's all the more reason to include those programs in the study.

In fact, the programs that were included in the study add up to a total cost that's only about 10% of Social Security and Medicare combined.

Whatever factor those two programs are, it's by far the biggest factor in the equation, and the study in the OP just left it out.

And it's not at all obvious to me that including Social Security and Medicare would have made the case against immigration stronger. It may even do the opposite, especially with respect to illegal immigrants, who pay taxes into those programs for work that will never count toward them ever getting to receive them. I think this amount is something like $15 Billion per year. If we're really going to do a cost benefit analysis of how immigrants affect the budgets of welfare programs, that amount is bound to offset a significant portion of the money they get from all those much smaller budget programs mentioned in the OP.

[acptulsa]

You could not walk into Rome, from any old place on earth, and claim to be a Roman citizen.

That would be a good way to get sold into slavery.

But it's also a moot point...your example is comparing apples to bowling balls.

Just a hundred years ago there were not 8.5 billion people on the planet.

They can not all come here, not without radically changing the nation, for the worse, into something totally different, alien and foreign.

That will not "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

He said, "You can't end welfare until you close the border." Where's the apple and where's the bowling ball?

The border was not wide open when The Relief was invented and implemented. So put it in context for me. Can you end welfare in an enclosed bowling alley, but not in a pie? Why?

If we're really going to do a cost benefit analysis of how immigrants affect the budgets of welfare programs, that amount is bound to offset a significant portion of the money they get from all those much smaller budget programs mentioned in the OP.

You want real world numbers? He never deals in practical matters. I think he just comes here to try to convince himself he has principles.

Principal, in this case fifteen billion worth, doesn't seem to concern him.

[Invisible Man]

You could not walk into Rome, from any old place on earth, and claim to be a Roman citizen.

But you could walk in and not claim to be Roman citizen and still be there anyway.

Also, when talking about the reasonability of walling off and blocking travel into and across plots of land, cities that are entirely occupied by land that has already been improved with owned, occupied, and currently in use structures, aren't interchangeable with countries that span continents and are made up of mostly empty land.

[Invisible Man]

Just a hundred years ago there were not 8.5 billion people on the planet.

They can not all come here, not without radically changing the nation, for the worse, into something totally different, alien and foreign.

Of course they can't. And the laws of economics have better means of handling that problem of scarcity and making sure that limited resources get best distributed among those who demand them, through mechanisms like price, than central managers in some far off government ever could.

The notion that the entire population of the world would squeeze itself into the borders of the USA and try to outbid one another for tiny plots of its land, while the entire rest of the land of the planet with all its space and resources just lies unused and waiting to be claimed for free by anyone who would merely go there and improve it, is nonsense. But if this make believe world of yours ever did come about, then what an awesome opportunity that would present to you and me to go and have our pick of places to live, work, and trade with one another anywhere else in the world we wanted, as free people, while 8.5 billion communists fought over the chance to be subjugated to the regime in Washington, DC.

[acptulsa]

Of course they can't. And the laws of economics have better means of handling that problem of scarcity and making sure that limited resources get best distributed among those who demand them, through mechanisms like price, than central managers in some far off government ever could.

Well, that's why the GOP has spectacularly failed us, isn't it? Self-identifying "conservatives" have just as much arrogant hubris among their ranks as progs. The government can do nothing right, but if it's my idea it's trying to implement, government should do it anyway.

[Invisible Man]

Well, that's why the GOP has spectacularly failed us, isn't it? Self-identifying "conservatives" have just as much arrogant hubris among their ranks as progs. The government can do nothing right, but if it's my idea it's trying to implement, government should do it anyway.

In 2008-2012, what you just said here was one of the central tenets that this website rallied behind.

[Snowball]

Yes. These levels will continue to rise, for the rest of the future. It is the end stage of capitalism that the plutocracy has gobbled up the assets, making it unlivable for the general population, who will resort to assistance, an assistance that is a dependency on the oligarchs. Most libertarians still don't understand this.

[acptulsa]

Yes. These levels will continue to rise, for the rest of the future. It is the end stage of capitalism that the plutocracy has gobbled up the assets, making it unlivable for the general population, who will resort to assistance, an assistance that is a dependency on the oligarchs. Most libertarians still don't understand this.

We don't understand what, O Mystical Sage? How you don't understand that you should never say "always", just as you should never say "never"? How you can say something which bears no resemblance to capitalism is its end stage? How you feel you can predict "the rest of the future", even though capitalism came back to Russia?

[Snowball]

We don't understand what, O Mystical Sage?

Only if you consider yourself, and those you're apparently speaking for to fall under the conditional I posted: "MOST LIBERTARIANS".


As the former Papal Nuncio to the United States said, just days ago:

Once it is understood that the present events have been intended in order to obtain certain results – and consequently to pursue certain interests on behalf of a minority part of humanity, with incalculable harm for the majority – we must also have the honesty to recognize the criminal mens [mind] of the authors of this plan. This criminal design also makes us understand the fraud perpetrated by civil authority in presenting certain measures as an unavoidable response to unpredictable events, when the events have been artfully created and magnified with the sole purpose of legitimizing a revolution – which Schwab identifies as the fourth industrial revolution – intended by the elite to the detriment of all humanity. The enslavement of authority is on the other hand the result of a process that began even earlier, with the French Revolution, and which made the political class the servant not of God (whose Lordship it disdainfully disregards) nor of the sovereign people (which it despises and uses only to legitimize itself), but of the economic and financial potentates, of the international oligarchy of bankers and usurers, of multinationals and pharmaceutical companies. In reality, on closer inspection, all these subjects belong to a small number of well-known very rich families.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post7057312

[acptulsa]

We don't understand what, O Mystical Sage?

Only if you consider yourself, and those you're apparently speaking for to fall under the conditional I posted: "MOST LIBERTARIANS".

That'll teach me to stick to yes or no questions, by God.

[TheTexan]

Open borders is a great idea. In theory.

In practice, it just means that we will be importing even more tyrants and even more boots to be placed on our neck.

Why the $#@! anyone thinks thats a good idea, I will never understand.

[Swordsmyth]

Of course you can have open borders and no welfare. Countries did it for some odd nineteen hundred years, and a couple of millennia before that. What the hell are you talking about?

That is not what I said.
But once you have a welfare state you can't end it while borders are open.
And for most of known history communism didn't exist as a popular ideology and international travel was not so easy.

The Constitution does not demand the federal government get involved in militias at all. Why do you hate the Tenth Amendment?

I know you don't care about it but you should read it before arguing about it:
A1S8:
...To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia...

Who scams what is irrelevant to his point. But don't worry about it. I'm pretty sure he only made the point to trick you into revealing it was too adult a concept for you. Which you did.

Immigrants are a far greater drain on the system than natives and vote to expand welfare at much higher rates.
That is the Adult viewpoint.

But I guess if your goal was to make a complete fool of yourself this post was a victory.

[Swordsmyth]

Open borders is a great idea. In theory.

In practice, it just means that we will be importing even more tyrants and even more boots to be placed on our neck.

Why the $#@! anyone thinks thats a good idea, I will never understand.

Because they work for the tyrants and are one of the boots on our neck.

[Swordsmyth]

If so, then that's all the more reason to include those programs in the study.

In fact, the programs that were included in the study add up to a total cost that's only about 10% of Social Security and Medicare combined.

Whatever factor those two programs are, it's by far the biggest factor in the equation, and the study in the OP just left it out.

And it's not at all obvious to me that including Social Security and Medicare would have made the case against immigration stronger. It may even do the opposite, especially with respect to illegal immigrants, who pay taxes into those programs for work that will never count toward them ever getting to receive them. I think this amount is something like $15 Billion per year. If we're really going to do a cost benefit analysis of how immigrants affect the budgets of welfare programs, that amount is bound to offset a significant portion of the money they get from all those much smaller budget programs mentioned in the OP.

You know what is the biggest problem?
The giant government itself and all of its programs that do no go to people who pay into them.
That leaves any program like Social Security or Medicare in the dust.
And immigrants both legal and illegal vote to maintain and grow it at much higher rates and so do their descendants .

[Swordsmyth]

Working folks paid money to be given to recipients of those programs. And when they themselves become recipients of them, it will be money paid by others.

This is the same as with all the programs listed in the study in the OP.

No.
It is not the same.
Immigrants who pay nothing into the system come in and drain out money and vote for more.

[Swordsmyth]

I hear this one a lot. But if it's really a true claim, then it's a big point in favor of open borders

No, it is not.
The collapse of the former welfare state always leads to the rise of tyranny in its place.
Usually accompanied by genocide.

[oyarde]

Open borders is a great idea. In theory.

In practice, it just means that we will be importing even more tyrants and even more boots to be placed on our neck.

Why the $#@! anyone thinks thats a good idea, I will never understand.

I've never thought it a particularly great idea. I'm to the point where less is better .The country has a dismal work force participation rate. There are plenty of people here to produce . It just needs to be an environment that encourages production instead of sloth.

[DamianTV]

I hear this one a lot. But if it's really a true claim, then it's a big point in favor of open borders

And keep the Welfare part of it?

[Invisible Man]

And keep the Welfare part of it?

According to you, that's not possible.

Or are you now taking that back and saying that you actually can have both open borders and a welfare state?

[DamianTV]

According to you, that's not possible.

Or are you now taking that back and saying that you actually can have both open borders and a welfare state?

Dont put this on me. I am gonna go back to what I originally said, which is that a country can NOT have Open Borders and a Welfare / Warfare State if it is to survive. The reason those current policies are set to what they are is because the powers that be do NOT want the United States as we once knew her to survive.

[Invisible Man]

Dont put this on me. I am gonna go back to what I originally said, which is that a country can NOT have Open Borders and a Welfare / Warfare State if it is to survive. The reason those current policies are set to what they are is because the powers that be do NOT want the United States as we once knew her to survive.

I'm not sure what "the United States as we once knew her" is. But if it's a welfare state, then in my opinion its survival is nothing I'm interested in saving. Let the welfare state die.

[DamianTV]

I'm not sure what "the United States as we once knew her" is. But if it's a welfare state, then in my opinion its survival is nothing I'm interested in saving. Let the welfare state die.

The Welfare State is committing suicide. Once our Free Welfare to ALL Illegals is completely gone, then and ONLY then can we really have Open Borders.

[Invisible Man]

The Welfare State is committing suicide.

This is a good thing, right?

Once our Free Welfare to ALL Illegals is completely gone, then and ONLY then can we really have Open Borders.

Well in that case, I guess the threat of open borders is nothing to fear, since I don't see welfare disappearing in the near future. So I'm not sure what you're worried about.

[Cleaner44]

The Constitution requires Congress to arm the militia.
The Dick act defines the unorganized militia as every adult male.
I want my gun.

https://shop.mrcolionnoir.com/produc...12729699893328

[DamianTV]

This is a good thing, right?


Well in that case, I guess the threat of open borders is nothing to fear, since I don't see welfare disappearing in the near future. So I'm not sure what you're worried about.

Wanna know what I am really worried about? Being murdered by my own government. What do you think all the Illegals are for? Say it with me: POPULATION REPLACEMENT. Theres no one left in this country stupid enough to vote Democrat again that hasnt taken the vaccine, and since so many of their voters are gonna die, here come the REPLACEMENT VOTERS.

[acptulsa]

Wanna know what I am really worried about? Being murdered by my own government. What do you think all the Illegals are for? Say it with me: POPULATION REPLACEMENT. Theres no one left in this country stupid enough to vote Democrat again that hasnt taken the vaccine, and since so many of their voters are gonna die, here come the REPLACEMENT VOTERS.

Replacement voters?

Women are being sent ballots two at a time.

https://twitter.com/notaxation/statu...95804243316740

Diebold may have changed its name, but it's still making vote flippers. The graveyards are full of Democrat voters.

You're thinking of replacement workers.. Ones who have been slaves before, and will be more compliant than Americans who (despite what the great-great-great-great-great grandchildren of slaves would have you believe) will soon be taking umbrage at how workers in North America are about to be treated.

[Swordsmyth]

Wanna know what I am really worried about? Being murdered by my own government. What do you think all the Illegals are for? Say it with me: POPULATION REPLACEMENT. Theres no one left in this country stupid enough to vote Democrat again that hasnt taken the vaccine, and since so many of their voters are gonna die, here come the REPLACEMENT VOTERS.

Replacement voters?

Women are being sent ballots two at a time.



Diebold may have changed its name, but it's still making vote flippers. The graveyards are full of Democrat voters.

You're thinking of replacement workers.. Ones who have been slaves before, and will be more compliant than Americans who (despite what the great-great-great-great-great grandchildren of slaves would have you believe) will soon be taking umbrage at how workers in North America are about to be treated.

They need replacement voters to keep their fraud plausible.
They can't afford another 2020 full retard event.

The open borders are meant to impose tyranny forever and nobody with a brain thinks otherwise.

[DamianTV]

Replacement voters?

Women are being sent ballots two at a time.



Diebold may have changed its name, but it's still making vote flippers. The graveyards are full of Democrat voters.

You're thinking of replacement workers.. Ones who have been slaves before, and will be more compliant than Americans who (despite what the great-great-great-great-great grandchildren of slaves would have you believe) will soon be taking umbrage at how workers in North America are about to be treated.

I would have said Replacement Workers, but I dont think the current paradigm is intending for the survival of this country. So in order to enact Cloward Piven, they bring in the illegals for two purposes: Vote, and Collect Welfare. Voting casts a bit of an illusion that there is someone out there that would really vote for these tyrants. Welfare is the part of the Cloward Piven strategy intended to provoke hyperinflation by making the govt print up money and debase the currency. Some of these people do allow their votes to go to who ever offers them the most free $#@!.

[DamianTV]

This is a good thing, right?


Well in that case, I guess the threat of open borders is nothing to fear, since I don't see welfare disappearing in the near future. So I'm not sure what you're worried about.

Wait for the current govt to come to your front door and kick you out of your own home because "Illegals need your home more than you do". Maybe you should worry about that.