Serious question for potentially serious trouble.

[osan]

I am probably going to make a fool of myself here, but the issue at hand is such that I don't much care at this point. It is not my way to bring personal matters into public fora such as this, but things look like they are about to turn bad for me in a way that I cannot allow. I will explain.

Back in 2005 I got the hair-brained idea that it would be a good thing to do the MBA. It cost me $90K and, due to circumstances, I had to finance the entire thing. I normally would not do such a thing for what many of you would immediately see as obvious reasons, but in those days I had no reason to think that things would go as badly as they have. After all, I'd spent the previous decade yanking down anywhere between $250K and $512K and had every reason to believe that I'd be at it once again as soon as I got back to work. I have, in fact, never financed anything, save for my houses and one automobile. I had a single student loan for $2500, thirty years ago. That's the extent of such things for me, and the primary reason why I had to have co-signers on the loans for the MBA. A lifetime of fiscal responsibility by paying cash for virtually everything earned me a credit rating on par with dog poo.

Well, things have not worked out quite as I'd expected and I am utterly incapable of paying these loans, a fact that gnaws at me for any of several reasons, not the least of which is that I consider myself to be a man of my word. I've never before welched on a debt, not even for $1. The loans are about to go into default and when that happens, they are going to go after my lovely wife and my 82 year old mom, as I own literally nothing anymore.

Other than paying the loans, the only way this debt will not be thrust upon Bibi (wife) or mom is if I die. I am not particularly fond of the latter option and greatly prefer not having to go that path, but I absolutely cannot allow two people whom I love dearly to pay for my failures. I'm not trying to be melodramatic or anything like that, but I am sure plenty of you understand the position in which I unintentionally placed myself. While I am working on alternate business possibilities, there are problems there as well that I have encountered and until something puts cash in hand, I cannot rely on that as deliverance from the evil I have unwittingly invited into my life of my family.

My question then, is whether any of you have any opinions or other knowledge on whether there might be other creative means of raising monies to settle this debt. Some who know me have said it's "only" $90K. Sure, until you don't have it. Does anyone think something like a "save osan's family from doom" money bomb, or other form of crowd-sourcing endeavor might work? Or am I simply screwed regardless, eventually having to face the choice to saddle mom or Bibi with this large sum, or having an unfortunate accident?

I know it all sounds very idiotic and I should be embarrassed by it, but I simply cannot afford it. Furthermore, I apologize in advance for even bringing this here and if Bryan thinks this is too stupid and shameful, I will understand if the post is removed. It's just that I'm in a pretty bad corner and cannot afford to indulge myself in my lifelong discomfort with asking for help as this situation runs beyond merely myself, threatening real harm to two people I love very much. I think I am too stressed by it and too close to it to see things clearly.

Thanks in advance for any ideas and again I apologize for thrusting my problems into the laps of others. It is just that I don't know what else to do at this point.

[DamianTV]

First off, if our money system were honest, then I'd say you should feel ashamed. But we all know damn good and well it is not and the cost of education has skyrocketed, disproportionately to both our income and inflation. Be careful with the guilt, it is very commonly used to manipulate you into paying the bill. Dont respond emotionally the way you know they want you to. Once you allow them to manipulate you emotionally, they've got ya by the balls. Stand your ground and refuse to feel that guilt or shame.

Now, as far as what can be done about the debt. Not sure, I am flat ass broke myself and credit is also destroyed. I defaulted on everything after I lost my good paying job back in 2008, and since then have not found long term meaningful stable work. It has been $#@! job after $#@! job that usually dries up after a few months. Had one job fire me because I didnt "meet their quota", which didnt matter because the company went under 3 months later anyway. Trust us, a lot of the people here feel your pain.

I do recall reading a few threads on something to the effect of people being able to discharge student loan debt because they were completely unable to do anything with it at all. That might be an option, but I also was under the impression that if you are not working, then you arent required to repay student loans?

Any other financial advice from anyone that knows damn good and well this economy is a giant ponzi scheme scam?

[CPUd]

If they were federally guaranteed, they will be extremely difficult to discharge, but if you are talking about having cosigners, it sounds like they are privately financed. Ideally, you could try going to the lender and negotiate new terms/refinance. A lot of them now have a deal where your payment is a flat percentage of your income. With cosigners, they would factor into that formula, but if you were somehow able to get current, you might have a good chance to refinance and get them out from under it. I know all that sounds unrealistic if you're broke, but something to keep in mind should your fortunes change.

Worrying about this too much can make you physically ill. At some point, you have to draw the line and remind yourself it's just money. Look up FDCPA and know your rights, there are some things the collectors are not supposed to say or do, particularly when it comes to harassment. And it is not just you, there are millions out there in the same boat.

An unorthodox solution- you have a MBA, go to the lender and try to get a job with them. When they call to collect, tell them you're still waiting to hear back about that interview...

[tod evans]

Well $#@!!

I don't have any sage advice, sorry.

I'm at a similar stage in life and took on debt to fund a custody battle.

My clientele have changed demographics from entrepreneurs to retired government officials which, to me anyway, points to the sorry state of the economy in general.

Can you teach with your degree? Oft-times colleges will cover tuition costs if you contract with them... Just a thought.

[KCIndy]

I've never before welched on a debt, not even for $1. The loans are about to go into default and when that happens, they are going to go after my lovely wife and my 82 year old mom, as I own literally nothing anymore.

Other than paying the loans, the only way this debt will not be thrust upon Bibi (wife) or mom is if I die. I am not particularly fond of the latter option and greatly prefer not having to go that path, but I absolutely cannot allow two people whom I love dearly to pay for my failures.

Don't beat yourself up. I can sympathize. Hardly anyone I know is making more money now than they did ten years ago, myself included.

Have you talked with an attorney? (I know - that's expensive!)

If your primary goal is to protect your wife and mother as co-signers, the only remaining option I can see is to check into Chapter 13. The good news is, it should stop the creditors from going after your co-signers. The bad news is, you would still have to pay the loans back under a repayment plan:


http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...ankruptcy.html

A Chapter 13 bankruptcy offers much more protection to your cosigners and guarantors, and gives you the opportunity to pay off cosigned or guaranteed debts through your repayment plan.

When you file a Chapter 13, your cosigners and guarantors on consumer (non-business) debts are protected from your creditors under the automatic stay. This is called the Chapter 13 codebtor stay. However, your creditors can still ask the court to lift the automatic stay under the following circumstances:

*It was your cosigner or guarantor who actually received the consideration for the creditor’s claim.
*You are not proposing to pay the debt off in full through your Chapter 13 plan.
*The creditor will suffer irreparable harm if the stay continues.

Also, keep in mind that the codebtor stay will end if your Chapter 13 is dismissed or converted to a Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

At the very least, this tactic might buy you some more time to get things turned around.

Hang in there, my friend. Whatever you do, don't give up.

[Working Poor]

Almost everyday I get an email on some government program for forgiving student loans. I don't have any student loans so I haven't ever checked it out but there is a chance you could qualify for this program. Maybe type in your search bar: "program for student loan forgiveness" and see what comes up.

I wish you all the best I know stuff like this can grind a person down.

[timosman]

I'd spent the previous decade yanking down anywhere between $250K and $512K

I am missing something here. What happened to all the cash?

[Ronin Truth]

Declaring bankruptcy may prove to be a viable, yet undesirable option.

MBAs do it.

BTW, MBA in a box.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...50._dr6S7ZdYQo

[TheTexan]

Have you considered taking out more debt, to pay for the debt?

[Suzanimal]

No shame in it, at all. I'm not even gonna tell ya all the dumb $#@! I've done, it could fill a set of encyclopedias.

My question then, is whether any of you have any opinions or other knowledge on whether there might be other creative means of raising monies to settle this debt. Some who know me have said it's "only" $90K. Sure, until you don't have it. Does anyone think something like a "save osan's family from doom" money bomb, or other form of crowd-sourcing endeavor might work? Or am I simply screwed regardless, eventually having to face the choice to saddle mom or Bibi with this large sum, or having an unfortunate accident?

Definitely set up a Go Fund Me page, can't hurt and every little bit helps. Selling on ebay? I've never done it but I know a lot of people make good money doing it. One of my brothers sells pdfs of old gun manuals and says he makes a lot of money considering the effort. You're a good writer, have you considered publishing an e-book and selling on Amazon?

Wish I could help more but I'm not really good at this kind of stuff.

[jllundqu]

Osan, my friend...

Indeed it is a pickle. I can feel your shame and discomfort in the OP. Many here have offered sage advice, and I have little to add save this; Were you to write a book, I would buy 50 copies, as would many here who have read your witty and eloquent prose. You truly have a gift and it should be leveraged. I know that doesn't help in the short term, but food for thought.

Forget about the 'latter' option of shaking loose this mortal coil... it doesn't suit you. Take your licks, find your way through, and drive on. God bless you, sir.

[sam1952]

I am missing something here. What happened to all the cash?

Honestly this was my first thought. That's nice income for the previous decade. Do you not have anything of value from those years you can sell? Cars, real estate, jewelry, anything? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, a serious question.

[osan]

I am missing something here. What happened to all the cash?

Some of it plowed back into the business. Some spent on living well. Some invested "elsewhere" to avoid the taxman. A fair amount given to help some friends in need. I made sure there was nothing left for the IRS to get their filthy mitts on. I was not working 100 hours/week at times to have those creeps rip me for 40%. I'd rather have nothing left at the end of the year than give them a penny... though my accountant did make me pay them $1500.00 one year just to ensure I didn't get a visit. I have no regrets on that point, though had things been otherwise I should have been easily able to sock away $1.5 million over that period. Better that I gave it away to people I deemed worthy of it than Themme, whom I despise.

[Todd]

I've heard if you call the right people you can negotiate to pay back the principle and some of debt from interest they will wave. Especially if you start to tell them you just can't pay it all and they are afraid you'll default. I've just heard that it's possible, but don't know where to begin. My wife is in a similar boat.

[Ronin Truth]

Contact a lawyer that specializes in bankruptcy for an options quick phone consult?

It just may to turn out to be much cheaper in the long run.

[osan]

Honestly this was my first thought. That's nice income for the previous decade. Do you not have anything of value from those years you can sell? Cars, real estate, jewelry, anything? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, a serious question.

It's all gone toward the past 10 years of bills and the like, not to mention the 1.5 years my wife spent in bed, sick as the devil from chemotherapy. Whatever I could liquidate, was sold long ago. My machine shop is gone, as is most of my blacksmithing equipment including a 250# steam hammer. The list of things now vapor is tearfully long. I now live off my wife's sweat, which makes me want to put my head in a chipper. Seriously, why don't I just move into mom's basement and perfect the picture.

[helmuth_hubener]

Pay your debts. Keep your word.

Actually, first-line best advice: Don't go into debt.

But, since you have:

Pay your debts. Keep your word.

But you already knew that. Or you should. And if somehow you don't or didn't, your morals are already twisted and corrupted enough that you don't really want advice from me nor anyone like me. You really don't.

So do what you already know you should do: pay your debt. Get a job. Any job. Even $25,000 a year at the oil lube will mean it's paid off in four years. Done. And then, don't go into any more debt.

[timosman]

It's all gone toward the past 10 years of bills and the like, not to mention the 1.5 years my wife spent in bed, sick as the devil from chemotherapy. Whatever I could liquidate, was sold long ago. My machine shop is gone, as is most of my blacksmithing equipment including a 250# steam hammer. The list of things now vapor is tearfully long. I now live off my wife's sweat, which makes me want to put my head in a chipper. Seriously, why don't I just move into mom's basement and perfect the picture.

Where did you get your MBA? Trump U? Any way to leverage that?

[osan]

Where did you get your MBA? Trump U? Any way to leverage that?

ERRRRRRG...

No, I went to a real business school - Drexel. Good program, but still not worth a poo when the economy is this lousy and you're 58 in twenty first century America where "old" = "cancerous plague". Them's the breaks.

[timosman]

ERRRRRRG...

No, I went to a real business school - Drexel. Good program, but still not worth a poo when the economy is this lousy and you're 58 in twenty first century America where "old" = "cancerous plague". Them's the breaks.

Why don't you sue the school? Btw, I prefer doing MBA using an alternative method:

[Natural Citizen]

Pay your debts. Keep your word.

Actually, first-line best advice: Don't go into debt.

But, since you have:

Pay your debts. Keep your word.

But you already knew that. Or you should. And if somehow you don't or didn't, your morals are already twisted and corrupted enough that you don't really want advice from me nor anyone like me. You really don't.

So do what you already know you should do: pay your debt. Get a job. Any job. Even $25,000 a year at the oil lube will mean it's paid off in four years. Done. And then, don't go into any more debt.

This. Best advice. Keep your word. Whatever it takes.

[Cleaner44]

My advice since you asked:

Raise money, sell anything that can be sold, do anything productive that you can earn money from. Consider starting a new business. You have skills that people are probably willing to pay for. Find a way to sell your time.

Protect wife and mom. Have them move assets out of the system. Make the assets invisible to the system. Keep the minimum in the bank, the rest in hand.

[fisharmor]

Why would you feel bad about this? Your feeling bad about it isn't helping you get out of the situation, and the creditors don't care how you feel... they just want their money.

You were apparently good at business.
So go be good at business.
Hell, if you're not doing anything else, put out some ads in places where kids with bright ideas frequent, and offer to be the guy who forces them to handle their great idea like a business.

[bunklocoempire]

Game is rigged.

Osan, no shame if you're trying to make things right -it wasn't a mistake, it is a lesson.

I've had lesser equipped friends bounce back from greater relative debt. It took 7 years and a complete lifestyle change for one friend, but he pulled it off with cooperation from family. He moved back into his parent's house () and enjoyed cultivating a relationship with them at a new level. Win/win.

I've had and uncle and aunt go through bankruptcy and lose their electrical company in their 50's at the time (they are super generous people and got caught all expanded out in a quickly contracting period), it was a long couple years, but they got through it and moved on to do more electrical work and help their son start his own electrical business with their lessons learned. Win/win.

Our good neighbors (early 60s) are currently in year 3 of their bankruptcy "re-stabilization" thing (their crops got wiped out by vog one season), it's going as well as can be expected, but it's still a big pile of **** to swallow every week, but it is what it is, and from what I've seen, the days my neighbor's accept the reality are the good days for them, the days when they "look back", aren't so great for them. Most are good days. They are making progress, and have had family move onto their property (mutually beneficial) for another win/win arrangement to navigate the "game".

Sorry, no real "quick" solutions for you, but I did want to share some encouragement. I've seen the greatest blessings come in crappy boxes.

I'd second seeking creative solutions with family, friends, and the institutions you owe.

Zheng Chunhui whittled away for four years and got a 40 foot long wood carving. Whittling works.

[presence]

if your mom is "elderly" she can discharge the obligation as "undue hardship"

likewise if your wife's current and historical income qualifies as "poverty" level she can also discharge the obligation as an "undue hardship"

Based on legislative history and the decisions of other district and bankruptcy courts, the district court adopted a standard for "undue hardship" requiring a three-part showing: (1) that the debtor cannot maintain, based on current income and expenses, a "minimal" standard of living for herself and her dependents if forced to repay the loans; (2) that additional circumstances exist indicating that this state of affairs is likely to persist for a significant portion of the repayment period of the student loans; and (3) that the debtor has made good faith efforts to repay the loans. For the reasons set forth in the district court's order, we adopt this analysis. The first part of this test has been applied frequently as the minimum necessary to establish "undue hardship."

http://www.moranlaw.net/student_loan_brunner.htm

for more info keyword "brunner test"

[heavenlyboy34]

First off, if our money system were honest, then I'd say you should feel ashamed. But we all know damn good and well it is not and the cost of education has skyrocketed, disproportionately to both our income and inflation. Be careful with the guilt, it is very commonly used to manipulate you into paying the bill. Dont respond emotionally the way you know they want you to. Once you allow them to manipulate you emotionally, they've got ya by the balls. Stand your ground and refuse to feel that guilt or shame.

Now, as far as what can be done about the debt. Not sure, I am flat ass broke myself and credit is also destroyed. I defaulted on everything after I lost my good paying job back in 2008, and since then have not found long term meaningful stable work. It has been $#@! job after $#@! job that usually dries up after a few months. Had one job fire me because I didnt "meet their quota", which didnt matter because the company went under 3 months later anyway. Trust us, a lot of the people here feel your pain.

I do recall reading a few threads on something to the effect of people being able to discharge student loan debt because they were completely unable to do anything with it at all. That might be an option, but I also was under the impression that if you are not working, then you arent required to repay student loans?

Any other financial advice from anyone that knows damn good and well this economy is a giant ponzi scheme scam?

I've heard rumours about this ^^ in MSM, but not sure if it's true. Something worth looking into, brothe Osan.

[heavenlyboy34]

My advice since you asked:

Raise money, sell anything that can be sold, do anything productive that you can earn money from. Consider starting a new business. You have skills that people are probably willing to pay for. Find a way to sell your time.

Protect wife and mom. Have them move assets out of the system. Make the assets invisible to the system. Keep the minimum in the bank, the rest in hand.

This^^ Also invest in a good combo safe. Cash is still king.

[DamianTV]

I've heard rumours about this ^^ in MSM, but not sure if it's true. Something worth looking into, brothe Osan.

I never took out any student loans, so I never got caught by that trap. Im still in financial dire straights tho, as are many people.

My first concern is the emotional response that people endure when they are forced to come to terms with the harsh economic reality that may nay-sayers like ZippyJuan claims isnt happening.


@osan - You wouldnt happen to be a Veteran, would you? Might be a few additional programs that could help if you are...

[heavenlyboy34]

I never took out any student loans, so I never got caught by that trap. Im still in financial dire straights tho, as are many people.

My first concern is the emotional response that people endure when they are forced to come to terms with the harsh economic reality that may nay-sayers like ZippyJuan claims isnt happening.


@osan - You wouldnt happen to be a Veteran, would you? Might be a few additional programs that could help if you are...

How does the graph designer define "black inequality"?

[phill4paul]

That particular bubble is going to pop soon. And the government of the people will cover the bail for those institutions to big to fail.