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Thread: America's military is built to help defense contractors, not troops

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    The problem is corrupted politicians and the voters who elect, and re-elect these corrupted politicians.
    Give the common man leave to dispense of corrupt politicians free from sanction and poof they're gone....

    Every elected position must carry the threat of death without retribution in order for the "will of the people" to be followed...



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    What our founders did to protect against a standing army was the requirement that ". . . no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years". This required House Members [all bills to raise a revenue are to originate in the House] to return to their constituents and seek their approval. The problem is not in our Constitution. The problem is corrupted politicians and the voters who elect, and re-elect these corrupted politicians.


    JWK



    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Failed.
    The fault is not in our Constitution. The failure you mention is found in the American People's unwillingness to support and defend their Constitution and its legislative intent, and severely punish elected officials who knowingly and willingly work to subvert the very constitution they took an oath to support and defend.


    JWK



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    The fault is not in our Constitution.


    JWK
    and there is no good reason to continue the foolishness that has gotten us here.

    Amend the Constitution,,

    My preference would be stricter limitations and sharp teeth to prevent exceeding those limits.
    and replace tax with voluntary anonymous contribution.

    Run out of a tip jar and stay out of the way, as government should be.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Actually, my understanding of the meaning of "general welfare" as it was understood by our Founders is "impeccable" because it reflects our founders own words and not those who pretend it means whatever they wish it to mean.

    In Federalist No. 83, which was written to explain the meaning of the Constitution as understood by its framers and to gain ratification, Hamilton, in crystal clear language, refers to a “specification of particulars” which he goes on to say “evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority“.

    Hamilton writes:

    "...the power of Congress...shall extend to certain enumerated cases. This specification of particulars evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended..."


    This view expressed by Hamilton in the Federalist Papers during the ratification debates is also in harmony with what Madison states during the framing and ratification debates:

    Madison, in No. 41 Federalist, explaining the meaning of the general welfare clause to gain the approval of the proposed constitution, states the following:



    "It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes...to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor [the anti federalists] for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction...But what color can this objection have, when a specification of the object alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not ever separated by a longer pause than a semicolon?...For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power...But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning...is an absurdity."


    Likewise, in the Virginia ratification Convention Madison explains the general welfare phrase in the following manner so as to gain ratification of the constitution: "the powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its jurisdiction."[3 Elliots 95]

    Also see Nicholas, 3 Elliot 443 regarding the general welfare clause, which he pointed out "was united, not to the general power of legislation, but to the particular power of laying and collecting taxes...."

    Similarly , George Mason, in the Virginia ratification Convention informs the convention

    "The Congress should have power to provide for the general welfare of the Union, I grant. But I wish a clause in the Constitution, with respect to all powers which are not granted, that they are retained by the states. Otherwise the power of providing for the general welfare may be perverted to its destruction.". [3 Elliots 442]

    For this very reason the Tenth Amendment was quickly ratified to intentionally put to rest any question whatsoever regarding the general welfare clause and thereby cut off the pretext to allow Congress to extended its powers via the wording provide for the “general welfare“.





    JWK




    Those who reject abiding by the intentions and beliefs under which our Constitution was agree to, as those intentions and beliefs may be documented from historical records, wish to remove the anchor and rudder of our constitutional system so they may then be free to “interpret” the Constitution to mean whatever they wish it to mean.
    It is your understanding of the Constitution that it was the intent of the Framers to develop the largest standing army in the world, peddling influence in practically every conflict on the planet?

    And this was to paid for through excise taxes?

    And furthermore, that this wasteful spending constitutes a promotion of the general welfare of the people within the United States as authorized by the Constitution?

    How many decades of spending is the current budget for the military (~1 trillion dollars after VA expenses, Black budget etc.) when compared to the annual budget of the beginning years of the United States?
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  7. #35
    Because I was curious, the 2017 budget for the military is about 1,564,945 times larger than the entire budget of 1789.

    And this was authorized because of Federalist No. 83?

    Adjusted for inflation, the US military budget (1 trillion dollars for all intents and purposes) could fund the annual budget of 1789 for 59,166 Years.

    And this was authorized by Federalist No. 41?
    Last edited by kcchiefs6465; 01-07-2018 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Typo
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    It is your understanding of the Constitution that it was the intent of the Framers to develop the largest standing army in the world, peddling influence in practically every conflict on the planet?
    Those are your words, not mine. So, how about you answering your own questions, and either agreeing to what I wrote or disagree with an intelligent and thoughtful rebuttal?

    JWK

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Those are your words, not mine. So, how about you answering your own questions, and either agreeing to what I wrote or disagree with an intelligent and thoughtful rebuttal?

    JWK
    Well, I’m on a phone so I don’t do the debate thing much anymore. It’s too hard to format. I will simply say that this military, which cannot even be audited, has wasted more money than quite possibly every other military on the planet over the entire course of human existence.

    Trillions of dollars of waste, in fact.

    And here you are to say that those who point out that they piss money away in spectacular fashion and have sold their souls to the complex are Russian agents.

    My rebuttal: Alexander Hamilton was a whore.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    It is your understanding of the Constitution that it was the intent of the Framers to develop the largest standing army in the world, peddling influence in practically every conflict on the planet?
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Those are your words, not mine. So, how about you answering your own questions, and either agreeing to what I wrote or disagree with an intelligent and thoughtful rebuttal
    JWK
    kcchiefs6465 comment is well warranted. According to johnwk , anyone that calls out the wasteful military spending is simply "clever hit piece designed to have the American People question and reject America modernizing and rebuilding her military" and a "Russian propagandists"
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    kcchiefs6465 comment is well warranted. According to johnwk , anyone that calls out the wasteful military spending is simply "clever hit piece designed to have the American People question and reject America modernizing and rebuilding her military" and a "Russian propagandists"
    He's right. Without the excess military spending the economy would collapse and our way of life, as we know it, would end.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    kcchiefs6465 comment is well warranted. According to johnwk , anyone that calls out the wasteful military spending is simply "clever hit piece designed to have the American People question and reject America modernizing and rebuilding her military" and a "Russian propagandists"
    What we need is a strong military with a drastically cut budget that is retracted to American soil for the defense of Americans.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    A little Ron Paul throwback on the Military Industrial Complex, military spending and military waste.







    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    He's right. Without the excess military spending the economy would collapse and our way of life, as we know it, would end.
    We wouldn't be poor we just wouldn't have an economy where one side benefits off the other side.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What we need is a strong military with a drastically cut budget that is retracted to American soil for the defense of Americans.
    I thought that was what I said.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I thought that was what I said.
    I was replying to AZ.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I was replying to AZ.
    OK,, was agreeing..

    but I thought I said something like it only different.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    kcchiefs6465 comment is well warranted. According to johnwk , anyone that calls out the wasteful military spending is simply "clever hit piece designed to have the American People question and reject America modernizing and rebuilding her military" and a "Russian propagandists"
    "Anyone". I gave my opinion on a specific article. Contrary to your charge, I was complaining about wasteful military spending back in the late 90s.

    JWK

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What we need is a strong military with a drastically cut budget that is retracted to American soil for the defense of Americans.
    Didn't Trump help to get the cost of air-force fighters reduced?


    JWK

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    OK,, was agreeing..

    but I thought I said something like it only different.
    OK, I don't think we are in disagreement either.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Didn't Trump help to get the cost of air-force fighters reduced?


    JWK
    I think so, but there is much more work to be done, hopefully the single step is a beginning to a journey of a thousand miles.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    "Anyone". I gave my opinion on a specific article. Contrary to your charge, I was complaining about wasteful military spending back in the late 90s.

    JWK
    late 90s ?

    I am I witness to a whole lot way back to the mid 70s..
    Huuge waste.
    I mean, you couldn't get better waste..

    opps wait,, Read My Lips.

    no?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    late 90s ?

    I am I witness to a whole lot way back to the mid 70s..
    Huuge waste.
    So did I but not as accurately as I did in the 90s which included massive waste and fraud in pinko social free cheese programs.

    JWK

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