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Thread: NJ-Rental property owner bans tenants from keeping firearms in their homes

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Congress shall make no law....
    That's the 1st... the 2nd is, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Since it doesn't specify who can't do the infringing, it must mean everyone and every body.

    The right of self defense is universal in the need for application. Since the tenants would have to leave the building to go about their business, and do it in NJ, they would have to have a place to keep the means of protection... that being their own domicile.
    Last edited by fedupinmo; 05-10-2018 at 06:19 AM.
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  3. #32
    I'm surprised nobody has thought to find the apartment with the LEO living in it and rat him out.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I'm surprised nobody has thought to find the apartment with the LEO living in it and rat him out.
    I assumed it was low income housing and thus no LEO would live near them.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I'm surprised nobody has thought to find the apartment with the LEO living in it and rat him out.
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  7. #35
    Rights already granted by means of statutory or common law cannot be negated through contracts with private parties, even if agreed to, such stipulations will fail when contested in a just court of law.

    The authority of property owners over their tenants is not limitless, their actions are beset by existing law and their renter's immutable rights, e.g., landlords cannot require a rental condition of having CCTV running throughout each of their rental units, make entry into whatever rental unit they wish upon their own desire, force you to make your own repairs or pay for the associated costs, prohibit visitors, compel all tenants to attend Sunday gathers at the local park, eat only fish on Friday, standby for closet and sock drawer inspections, check in before curfew, etc.
    Last edited by Weston White; 05-10-2018 at 08:18 AM.
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  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Rights already granted by means of statutory or common law cannot be negated through contracts with private parties, even if agreed to, such stipulations will fail when contested in a just court of law.

    The authority of property owners over their tenants is not limitless, their actions are beset by existing law and their renter's immutable rights, e.g., landlords cannot require a rental condition of having CCTV running throughout each of their rental units, make entry into whatever rental unit they wish upon their own desire, force you to make your own repairs or pay for the associated costs, prohibit visitors, compel all tenants to attend Sunday gathers at the local park, eat only fish on Friday, standby for closet and sock drawer inspections, check in before curfew, etc.
    This.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Landon View Post
    Quick question... what happens when mortgage companies decide to do this to all the people with mortgages? "If you have a loan with us for your home, you must not have any firearms in the home."

    - ML
    Or when the insurance mafia declares they will not write a homeowner's policy if there are guns on the property, which then defaults you on your mortgage agreement.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Landon View Post
    Quick question... what happens when mortgage companies decide to do this to all the people with mortgages? "If you have a loan with us for your home, you must not have any firearms in the home."

    - ML
    That is a problem that continues to manifest itself. While government might be constitutionally restrained, business has no such constraints. When there are realistically no options but to do business, and all of those businesses take away rights, aren't rights effectively eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I am a landlord . I do not really think that entertains me the right to suspend the Bill of Rights on a property . Nor do I think it would make it past a judge here if anyone challenged it . So what would really happen is you could pretend to be a tyrant king and then they would not follow the rules anyway making the decree stupid . Might as well say you can never smoke weed , drink beer , masturbate and free speech is suspended too .
    Good points.

    What if a Muslim landlord bans alcohol in his apartment building? What if an electrophobe landlord bans all EM generating devices (wifi, cell phones, wireless phones, microwaves, two-way radios, certain lights, etc.)?
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  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Or when the insurance mafia declares they will not write a homeowner's policy if there are guns on the property, which then defaults you on your mortgage agreement.
    What if an insurance company forbids employers from hiring? (for whatever reason)

    Black Balling anyone they choose. What about Insurance demanded Drug Testing?

    Or "Prohibited Persons",,, Too dangerous to Hire? or to rent to?

    The State in Control of production and housing. via Corporation (state created entity)




    The problems are obvious,,, the solutions less so.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 05-10-2018 at 01:30 PM.
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    Ron Paul 2004

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  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    That's the 1st... the 2nd is, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Since it doesn't specify who can't do the infringing, it must mean everyone and every body.

    The right of self defense is universal in the need for application. Since the tenants would have to leave the building to go about their business, and do it in NJ, they would have to have a place to keep the means of protection... that being their own domicile.
    An interesting argument.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Rights already granted by means of statutory or common law cannot be negated through contracts with private parties, even if agreed to, such stipulations will fail when contested in a just court of law.

    The authority of property owners over their tenants is not limitless, their actions are beset by existing law and their renter's immutable rights, e.g., landlords cannot require a rental condition of having CCTV running throughout each of their rental units, make entry into whatever rental unit they wish upon their own desire, force you to make your own repairs or pay for the associated costs, prohibit visitors, compel all tenants to attend Sunday gathers at the local park, eat only fish on Friday, standby for closet and sock drawer inspections, check in before curfew, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This.
    I understand the argument but doesn't that allow government to create any "rights" it wants and eliminate the right to freedom of contract?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    That is a problem that continues to manifest itself. While government might be constitutionally restrained, business has no such constraints. When there are realistically no options but to do business, and all of those businesses take away rights, aren't rights effectively eliminated?
    At some point the oligarchs who control the government become indistinguishable from the government, their economic manipulations enabled by their control of the government force us into the power of their "private sector" cartels and they play the tyrant with the left hand instead of the right.

    If we don't fix things soon there will come a day when wealth and property redistribution will be an essential part of any revolution, this will be extremely lamentable since it will be quite difficult to do it in a fair and just manner and the precedent set will be a threat to liberty forever.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I understand the argument but doesn't that allow government to create any "rights" it wants and eliminate the right to freedom of contract?
    Well, so far as such is established under common law (case law) and accordingly as by our guaranteed republic form of government--in accordance with our Creator granted rights to life, liberty and our pursuits of happiness.

    Still, it has been stated that: "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Well, so far as such is established under common law (case law) and accordingly as by our guaranteed republic form of government--in accordance with our Creator granted rights to life, liberty and our pursuits of happiness.
    I could (and liberals will) twist things to fit almost anything I wanted into the rights to life, liberty and our pursuits of happiness, and common law (case law) is created at the whim of judges.
    You could give government the power to restrict the freedom of contract in order to protect other rights but keeping government in check would become much more important and difficult.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Good points.

    What if a Muslim landlord bans alcohol in his apartment building? What if an electrophobe landlord bans all EM generating devices (wifi, cell phones, wireless phones, microwaves, two-way radios, certain lights, etc.)?
    In better times they would simply be limiting their customer base and thereby losing money, the tenants would go elsewhere or buy or build their own habitations, but when government is used to reduce the available options until you have none that don't restrict your liberty the situation gets murky.
    Using government to protect your rights increases its power which can then be turned against you but failing to do so allows the oligarchs to enslave you with their left hand instead of their right.
    You lose either way.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 05-10-2018 at 09:43 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    There are two distinct situations extant.

    Those who are already tenants have a contract. If the contract, i.e. their rental agreements, do not specify "no firearms", the property owner can then go suck it.

    Anyone entering a new agreement, whether for the first time or as a renewal, has the choice to respect the owner's rights or not live there.

    ETA: There is another situation: gun safes. Let us say you have a gun safe - large or small, doesn't matter. Landlords usually reserve some right to enter your premises, given proper notification and purpose.

    Suppose the landlord in question decides to install those hideous "low flow" shower heads in the effort to be "green". He enters your apartment and sees the safe, which proudly boasts its pedigree: Acme Impregnable Gun Safe Co. The landlord starts asking questions and I say he has sailed over a very bright and sharp line in doing so. "Do you have firearms in that safe?" Not your business. With all due respect, piss off. Change your stupid shower head and leave.

    I wonder where the courts would fall on this question. The precedents appear to support the tenant.
    Last edited by osan; 05-10-2018 at 02:25 PM.
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  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I fall on the side of the rights of the property owner.
    I am opposed to the property owners right to deny and endanger the tenants who were there before. Unless the owner is willing to pay for their relocation or to reimburse them for their losses in disposing of their firearms to comply.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    That's the 1st... the 2nd is, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Since it doesn't specify who can't do the infringing, it must mean everyone and every body.

    The right of self defense is universal in the need for application. Since the tenants would have to leave the building to go about their business, and do it in NJ, they would have to have a place to keep the means of protection... that being their own domicile.
    I see Shall not be infringed also to include everyone and everything . I will never surrender my weapons.
    Do something Danke



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    In better times they would simply be limiting their customer base and thereby losing money, the tenants would go elsewhere or buy or build their own habitations, but when government is used to reduce the available options until you have none that don't restrict your liberty the situation gets murky.
    Using government to protect your rights increases it's power which can then be turned against you but failing to do so allows the oligarchs to enslave you with their left hand instead of their right.
    You lose either way.
    Reducing the options has already occured, and is only getting worse. The central planners and leftist Utopians have decided that the future of mankind is renting in beehive like housing. The latest generations have been contintioned to expect and accept the same.

    As for the pseudo ownership of condos, town homes and zero property line housing in HOAs, you don't know tyranny and corrupt, crony politburo politics until you are in an HOA...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I assumed it was low income housing and thus no LEO would live near them.
    The co I work for has 2 "courtesy officers," and they do live in the more expensive units.

    When the topic rose that I was going to Indy on the 14th, because I thought I knew who I worked with better, several people claiming to be alright with guns were shocked I kept a rifle in my car. I shouldn't have said anything, but it wasn't until a respected coworker of mine left the meeting, and the old $#@!er making 6 figures by sitting on his ass started prying and asking questions, that a big deal was made of the fact - one of us at least had a gun! :O "What are you gonna do? Shoot somebody who makes you mad on the road?" (I told him yeah. I should not have.)

    So I am leaving this company, and town, shortly. Hoplophobes every stinking place.
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 05-10-2018 at 03:11 PM.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    That's the 1st... the 2nd is, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Since it doesn't specify who can't do the infringing, it must mean everyone and every body.

    The right of self defense is universal in the need for application. Since the tenants would have to leave the building to go about their business, and do it in NJ, they would have to have a place to keep the means of protection... that being their own domicile.
    Good point!

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    "Effective as of May 1, 2018 this building will be a firearm free building."

    Great idea, I bet the building and its occupants will all be super safe now
    No provision for cops?

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by navy-vet View Post
    No provision for cops?
    You know, I didn't see it mentioned, but I'll bet a week's wages that cops are exempt from this "policy".

  28. #54
    The right to property is not greater than the right to self-defense. If it's a home you are renting to others, here in the USA, you're well under advisement that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

  29. #55
    Yes. They should be able to ban people from having guns on the premises. Your property, your rules. Seems clear-cut.

    More interesting is I predict leftists will have no problem with this. But if that property owner had prevented tenants from exercising support for Hillary Clinton or wanted to keep transgenders from renting, those same leftists would be hysterical and want to crackdown on those "civil rights" violations.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    That's the 1st... the 2nd is, SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Since it doesn't specify who can't do the infringing, it must mean everyone and every body.

    The right of self defense is universal in the need for application. Since the tenants would have to leave the building to go about their business, and do it in NJ, they would have to have a place to keep the means of protection... that being their own domicile.
    Their own domicile.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Yes. They should be able to ban people from having guns on the premises. Your property, your rules. Seems clear-cut.
    Agreed, but only in defense of property Rights and contractual agreements.
    The Bill of Rights was not intended to be a list of individual Rights. Natural Law demands that our Rights are limitless unless they violate another's.
    Landlords routinely disallow pets, or smoking. These are Natural Rights. Employers usually don't allow firearms in the workplace. Political speech, or any type of non-work related speech, can get you fired, regardless that it is a recognized Right.
    "The shall not be infringed" statement is in regards to prohibition by a sovereign.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Or when the insurance mafia declares they will not write a homeowner's policy if there are guns on the property, which then defaults you on your mortgage agreement.

    Really? That is same argument that created all the Fair Housing/Equal Pay/Disabilities/Anti-discrimination laws. "But who will sell to the blacks?" That is like a Jesse Jackson argument about banks not lending to black people.

    Insurance companies are in the business of making money. If one insurance company didn't want to insure people that were gun owners, there will be no shortage of companies that would step in. If no one insured gun owners, then a company that did would get started because there would be a demand. If insurance companies deemed gun owners higher risk of lawsuit then they would charge gun owners higher premiums. Markets work.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Really? That is same argument that created all the Fair Housing/Equal Pay/Disabilities/Anti-discrimination laws. "But who will sell to the blacks?" That is like a Jesse Jackson argument about banks not lending to black people.

    Insurance companies are in the business of making money. If one insurance company didn't want to insure people that were gun owners, there will be no shortage of companies that would step in. If no one insured gun owners, then a company that did would get started because there would be a demand. If insurance companies deemed gun owners higher risk of lawsuit then they would charge gun owners higher premiums. Markets work.
    Markets work until they are captured.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    ...companies are in the business of making money.
    Hahahaha, that's funny.

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