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Thread: Trump Threatens Venezuela With 'Military Option'

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I said the US should not intervene in Venezuela.



    The question isn't whether the US (or any other state) can help people by intervening, but whether, if they could, it would be justified.

    Needless to say, it would be, unless you value nationalism over liberalism.

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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Should us taxpayers fund Israel?
    No, as that clearly encourages, rather than suppresses, aggression.

  4. #63
    It is human nature to, having intervened, attempt to carry away at least sufficient plunder to pay for the intervention. It is human nature. Any theory which fails to take that into account is akin to a theory about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It may be a pretty enough theory. But it will never be proven in practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I said the US should not intervene in Venezuela.
    No, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post

    If an intervention would serve to protect the rights of individuals in Venezuela, at reasonable cost, it would be justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The question isn't whether the US (or any other state) can help people by intervening, but whether, if they could, it would be justified.

    Needless to say, it would be, unless you value nationalism over liberalism.
    Yes, I think the government should be small and constrained only to its Constitutional duties. There is nothing stopping private U.S. citizens from helping others around the world if they so choose. And if we didn't have to pay for these endless military interventions, private U.S. citizens would have more money in their pockets to help foreigners if they so choose.

    But, if I were to try and put myself into a foreign interventionist's shoes, my biggest problem is with the word "help" from your sentence above. The majority of Latin Americans seem to like living under a socialist government. Daniel Ortega is still president of Nicaragua for ex. If the country of Venezuela had an election and overwhelmingly voted to allow the U.S. government to implement a market economy down there, that would be one thing. But if only, say, 30% of the people in Venezuela wanted that and 70% voted against it (which I suspect would happen), then imho it would be incredibly wrong to force our philosophy and structures onto their country. Who are we to say what is best for them and their culture?

    And of course there would never be an election in Venezuela (or any country) to determine whether or not the people of that country would want our help. We would just force it on the majority even if the majority didn't want it.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    No, you said:






    Yes, I think the government should be small and constrained only to its Constitutional duties. There is nothing stopping private U.S. citizens from helping others around the world if they so choose. And if we didn't have to pay for these endless military interventions, private U.S. citizens would have more money in their pockets to help foreigners if they so choose.

    But, if I were to try and put myself into a foreign interventionist's shoes, my biggest problem is with the word "help" from your sentence above. The majority of Latin Americans seem to like living under a socialist government. Daniel Ortega is still president of Nicaragua for ex. If the country of Venezuela had an election and overwhelmingly voted to allow the U.S. government to implement a market economy down there, that would be one thing. But if only, say, 30% of the people in Venezuela wanted that and 70% voted against it (which I suspect would happen), then imho it would be incredibly wrong to force our philosophy and structures onto their country. Who are we to say what is best for them and their culture?

    And of course there would never be an election in Venezuela (or any country) to determine whether or not the people of that country would want our help. We would just force it on the majority even if the majority didn't want it.
    I had this conversation with R3V, he won't listen.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    No, you said:
    I'm not sure why you're saying "no" since what you quote exactly corresponds to what I wrote in my last post.

    Who are we to say what is best for them and their culture?
    Libertarians (as opposed to, for instance communists).

    We would just force it on the majority even if the majority didn't want it.


    The opinion of the majority is of no consequence whatsoever.

    This is again, shocking as you may find it, the liberal position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I had this conversation with R3V, he won't listen.
    To which of the above incoherent and/or illiberal arguments won't I listen?

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    To which of the above incoherent and/or illiberal arguments won't I listen?
    The one that says, it's their country and sooner or later you have to leave it to them to make it work.

    You can shove broccoli down a child's throat. You can. But if the child hates broccoli and hates you for forcing the broccoli on him, how are you going to prevent him from doing the bulimia trick and throwing the broccoli up on your shoes?

    Are you going to super glue his lips together? Has your loving, righteous, oh-so-correct liberal arrogance done more harm than good yet?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    To which of the above incoherent and/or illiberal arguments won't I listen?
    That we don't have the right to intervene in other countries because what they do in their own territory is none of our business.
    Don't you remember our debate on the subject? You didn't change your mind then so I assume you won't now.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The one that says, it's their country and sooner or later you have to leave it to them to make it work.
    Yes, that would be an example of an illiberal argument against intervention (or, the state at all, as I indicated earlier).

    I forget, are you an anarcho-capitalist?

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Yes, that would be an example of an illiberal argument against intervention (or, the state at all, as I indicated earlier).

    I forget, are you an anarcho-capitalist?
    I answered that in this thread before you asked it. I was subtle, but you'll have to make do--in my liberal compassion for you, I detected a wee bit of a reading comprehension challenge and this will be a good way to force you to exercise that muscle and make it stronger.

    Why do you ask? Are you incapable of debating the merits of a thing with someone without knowing what box to stuff them into and what kind of label to stick on it?

    In fact, you have all night to try to pick my arguments apart. Good night and good luck!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That we don't have the right to intervene in other countries because what they do in their own territory is none of our business.
    Don't you remember our debate on the subject? You didn't change your mind then so I assume you won't now.
    As you mentioned, we covered this in the discussion in which I demonstrated that there is no liberal argument against intervention.

    ...i.e. the one in which you had to invoke the alleged collective ownership of the land by the people to sustain your argument.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I answered that in this thread before you asked it. I was subtle, but you'll have to make do--in my liberal compassion for you, I detected a wee bit of a reading comprehension challenge...
    Ooops, I stopped reading at that point.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    As you mentioned, we covered this in the discussion in which I demonstrated that there is no liberal argument against intervention.

    ...i.e. the one in which you had to invoke the alleged collective ownership of the land by the people to sustain your argument.
    Which is why I advised @charrob that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you, and why I am not going to restart that debate now.

    To everybody else: you might find the debate at R3V's link interesting.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Which is why I advised @charrob that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you, and why I am not going to restart that debate now.
    It isn't a matter of convincing, it's a matter of logic, which is why, indeed, there's no need to do it again.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Ooops, I stopped reading at that point.
    There, see? I saw a problem, I formulated a sound plan for intervention, I executed it, and look what happened.

    Should have brought some super glue...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It isn't a matter of convincing, it's a matter of logic, which is why, indeed, there's no need to do it again.
    You just proved @Swordsmyth right.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    It is human nature to, having intervened, attempt to carry away at least sufficient plunder to pay for the intervention. It is human nature. Any theory which fails to take that into account is akin to a theory about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It may be a pretty enough theory. But it will never be proven in practice.
    How great a percent of purse-snatcher nabbers do you think go into the purse they just recovered from a thief and steal the funds to pay for the cup of coffee they had to drop to stop the thief? I'd say it is more likely that an individual who will require payment for intervening will not intervene unless they are contracted for the intervention.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    How great a percent of purse-snatcher nabbers do you think go into the purse they just recovered from a thief and steal the funds to pay for the cup of coffee they had to drop to stop the thief? I'd say it is more likely that an individual who will require payment for intervening will not intervene unless they are contracted for the intervention.
    How many purse snatcher nabbers are politicians who are taking bribes from arms makers and oilmen?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    How many purse snatcher nabbers are politicians who are taking bribes from arms makers and oilmen?
    But that does not make it human nature, rather the nature of some thieves.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    How many purse snatcher nabbers are politicians who are taking bribes from arms makers and oilmen?
    Snake Oil Salesmen? You mean literally David Rockefellers father?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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