Elementary micro will do, no Nobel Prize required.Originally Posted by Krugminator2
Yes. But he was snarky asking if anyone had a PHD in economics, as if that were what was required to have an opinion on this. So it seemed necessary to go beyond a supply and demand curve.
Yea, I appreciate that, just saying.
Fine i did it for you: http://pricedingold.com/us-wages/
We're currently below the 1937 minimum wage. So you're figure about black unemployment is completely unrelated to the minimum wage. Unemployment is complex and you can't blame black employment on a single data point such as minimum wage law. There are other disemployment factors such as high taxes and regulation.
Low Minimum Wages are Actually Subsidies for Business
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1460317034.phpA recent UC Berkeley study stated that taxpayers pay around $243 billion each year to subsidize fast food workers alone. This money is paid because those people don’t make enough at their jobs and apply for government assistance. The argument is that raising the minimum wage will cut into that $243 billion in subsidies.
I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.
1. I have never heard of a real economist pricing things in terms of gold. The only people who talk about what something is worth in terms of gold are gold salesmen like Peter Schiff.
2. You didn't do anything. I am saying the minimum wage should be zero.
If we appealing to authority on black teen unemployment. Besides Walter Williams,
Milton Friedman, disagrees with you. https://www.aei.org/publication/milt...w-in-the-land/
Paul Samuelson http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/MinimumWages.html
Thomas Sowell http://www.twincities.com/2012/02/07...-black-people/
Art Laffer http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/01...is-just/197482
Even idiot Bruce Bartlett wrote a paper on the min. wage and black teen unemployment http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/ba292.pdf
And that's the approach you're advocating on a Liberty forum????
facepalm.
Brawndo's got what plants crave. Its got electrolytes.
H. L. Mencken said it best:
“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.”
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
Minimum wage should not exist as a government policy state or federal level.
That is in a perfect world.
In our world idiots will clamor for it and price them selves out of the market.
The solution is to eliminate those welfare programs, not raise the minimum wage in a (futile) attempt to push people out of eligibility for them.
I'm pleased to see you finally acknowledging that Trump is an idiot.
It's not a misconception as much as it's incomplete. There are about a million other factors that go into overall price inflation. But this much is 100% true:
The dollar is a measurement of value. Minimum wage jobs provide minimum value to the buyer of the labor (the business). If you change the number of how many dollars you are buying that labor for, you did nothing to change the value of that labor. Period. So if we are using a different measuring stick to value the labor, eventually, this will trickle over into every other aspect of the economy since labor is including in the price of everything.
This is why I say that creating a new artificial price floor on something like labor will most assuredly create inflation. Now, that's all else being equal. You also have to consider quantity and velocity of the money supply. These things also affect inflation. We've had a massive amount of new money, but the velocity has been historically low. If we were to increase the minimum wage now (adjusting that side of the measuring stick), you had better believe the velocity would take off and the inflation could hit quickly.
Morally, the minimum wage should just be abolished, but from a purely utilitarian point of view, I don't think we need to end the minimum wage, really. We just need to never move it until it becomes irrelevant by other economic factors.
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
emphasis mine. Idiots. Like Trump.
Brawndo's got what plants crave. Its got electrolytes.
H. L. Mencken said it best:
“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.”
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
Economy-wide inflation can only result from an increasing money supply or declining real output.
Raising the minimum wage could only cause economy-wide inflation insofar as it results in unemployment and that reduces real output.
I browsed through all those and none try to account for other disemployment factors, focusing only on the single data point of minimum wage. Walter Williams briefly mentioned automation hurting employment.
So if you really want to help black teens, abolish the minimum wage then go the extra mile and abolish automation as well
I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.
Sad to see this debate on Ron Paul Forums. Time to go back to the basics...
Rand Paul for Peace
The reason they focus on that single data point is because that is all that is necessary.I browsed through all those and none try to account for other disemployment factors, focusing only on the single data point of minimum wage. Walter Williams briefly mentioned automation hurting employment.
So if you really want to help black teens, abolish the minimum wage then go the extra mile and abolish automation as well
The minimum wage is a hurdle. If the hurdle is eliminated, technological advances have no affect on employment. The reason black teen unemployment is higher is because fewer black teens clear the hurdle. They often come from single parent households, in lower income areas, and get a bad education in government schools. All of those contribute to making them less valuable to an employer. If their labor cost is lowered, it becomes more enticing for an employer to take a chance on them.
I don't care if it brings utopia. I know it would be a boon to the economy. But even if it were going to hurt the economy, I'd still be for it, because it's the right thing to do.
The growth in taxes and regulations also correspond to your pet project of black unemployment increases. My point is this: it's not purely about wages.
Look at how many pages are in the federal tax code
"Americans are rightfully frustrated with the complexity of the 74,608-page-long federal tax code. The federal tax code is 187 times longer than it was a century ago, according to Wolters Kluwer, CCH, which has analyzed it since 1913"
The effectiveness of licensing
"In addition, licensing laws may have negative side effects, including an increase in the cost of professional services, the creation of shortages and maldistributions in supply, ineffective use of paraprofessionals, and impediments to needed reforms in education, training, and services."
Last edited by spudea; 07-27-2016 at 08:46 PM.
I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.
No one's saying that all unemployment is a result of the minimum wage.
Some is, and that's reason enough to abolish it.
It would affect the price of everything. But it would make some prices go up and others go down.
Effectively, it would force the relative prices of everything to change to something unnatural, with minimum wage jobs and prices that are directly related to them to go up relative to the prices of things that are inversely related to them.
But if this were done while keeping the total money supply the same, the net effect would be zero inflation.
Of course it's not purely about wages. But the minimum wage is the topic of this thread. All those other factors are irrelevant.
Raising the minimum wage is always bad. There are zero exceptions.
Lowering the minimum wage is always good. There are zero exceptions.
Those facts don't change just because there are also other regulations to be eliminated and taxes to be cut.
Tonight I will dream that you become dictator and can shape this country into a Libertarian utopia. Then i'll wake up and try to make the best of the world I live in. If trading a small increase in minimum wage gets me lower taxes and lower regulations, as part of a comprehensive reform package that can pass congress, I think that could be a net benefit to freedom for all.
I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.
What makes you think that's the case?
But increasing minimum wage doesn't do that. Especially not with Donald Trump, who is going to increase taxes and regulations.
Bull$#@!. A "subsidy" is a sum of money taken by a government from some people and then given to some other people (usually for the ostensible purpose of artificially depressing prices or artificially stimulating demand).
Whether "high" or "low" (whatever those words are supposed to mean at any given time), a minimum wage is money to be taken from employers and required to be given to workers. Thus, a minimum wage cannot in any way be sensibly described as a subsidy to employers, and any attempt to describe it so is a gratuitous abuse of language. (And in this particular case, it's obviously just a clumsily transparent attempt to elicit animosity towards "business" for having been allegedly "subsidized" at the expense of "taxpayers.") In fact, if minimum wages can be described as "subsidies" at all, then they would clearly be subsidies to workers, not to employers - and the "government assistance" referred to in your citation would then be just yet more subsidies to workers piled on top of that.
The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)
- "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
-- The Law (p. 54)- "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
-- Government (p. 99)- "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
-- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)- "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
-- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)· tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·
SMH ... all I can say is, "keep dreaming" ... (and you have the gall to accuse other people of utopianism? ...)
Last edited by Occam's Banana; 07-27-2016 at 09:26 PM.
the 2016 GOP platform, although it indicates minimum wage laws should be left to the states, we need something to offer democrats in order to pass lower taxes and regulation reforms.
I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.
And by "Democrats" you mean, Trump.
Are we really discussing minimum wage increases on RON PAUL forums? I saw this and thought there is no way the trump supports could defend this. I am blown away. The sad thing is is that I am for more government then most people here I believe in government funding roads and a court system also police and animal control should be ran publicly. But minimum wage?!?!?!?! Really?!?!?!
There are policies in place now. Can we vote for no government at all? No we can't. What we can do is replace policies with other policies. We have a minimum wage. The minimum wage is supposed to help workers who have no union. It's a core policy. We shouldn't be competing with China and the poorest counties on wages. We don't live in anything like a free market right now. Taking away the minimum wage just makes US Citizens poor. If someone is going to fix every market where there are oligopoly conditions and make those markets into ones characterized by perfect competition, great, do that, and you'll be able to get rid of the minimum wage then.
Government takes so much of our money, there just isn't money left in our pockets to bid up, through our own consumption, the price of labor. The government is buying new spies and new bombs every day with our money. We don't enough of it to give to the people making minimum wage. Our economy has been twisted so far from where the old textbooks were, that piecemeal revisions won't have positive benefits. The government does not want to buy the work of minimum wage workers. My understanding is that there are rules that state that businesses doing business with the government have to pay higher rates to their workers. So, our taxpayer money goes to overpay workers. If I actually wanted to buy what the government was buying on my behalf, I'd be able to buy it cheaper than the government can, so they aren't doing the best they can. In order for the magic invisible hand to work, none of these things are acceptable - they break the theory. All the pieces do fit together right, but so many of the pieces are broken and dysfunctional. The invisible hand doesn't allow for huge government spending. If there's huge government spending, it's not the invisible hand guiding the market, it's the government. If you lower the minimum wage or fail to raise it, you're not getting to a good outcome, you're just getting poorer workers. The government is in charge of the economy, not the invisible hand. In an ideal world where the invisible hand is in charge, no minimum wage is necessary. But, today and 50 years ago, it's the government who is in charge, not the invisible hand, so poor folks get screwed, that's it, no great outcome.
any politician that makes abolishing the minimum wage part of their campaign platform does not get elected.
Ron Paul may have expressed it as part of his ideology. Great, it's part of my ideology as well. But it's not something he seriously campaigned on or fought for legislation to repeal. His main economic policy angle was ending the FED. End the inflation tax to help the poor.
If Ron did sponsor legislation or give long House speeches to abolish the minimum wage, correct me if i'm wrong.
I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.
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