Swiss ban the burka - did Liberty win or lose?

[Zippyjuan]

To keep it fair, one would have to ban ALL religious garments and accessories from being worn in public. No crucifixes. No yarmulcas for the Jewish people. No Amish hats. No orange robes for the Krishas or Buddhist monks. No prayer beads. No collars for priests. No nuns in habits. No Sikh headwarps.

[Thor]

To keep it fair, one would have to ban ALL religious garments and accessories from being worn in public. No crucifixes. No yarmulcas for the Jewish people. No Amish hats. No orange robes for the Krishas or Buddhist monks. No prayer beads. No collars for priests. No nuns in habits. No Sikh headwarps.

If that religion purports violence against non believers, I agree. But otherwise no...

[Thor]

Nice France. Horrible. Muslim.

[ArrestPoliticians]

its an anti-liberty move that might net secular liberty overall for the women involved at the expense of their religious liberty(to the extent theyre not being forced by some guy to wear it).

[Zippyjuan]

Nice France. Horrible. Muslim.

I haven't seen anything on his religion though he is said to be from Tunisia. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...e-know-so-far/

Neighbours described Bouhel as a depressed – sometimes aggressive – man who was not particularly interested in religion, and kept to himself.

They said that he had been unhappy since he divorced his wife two years ago, and that he suffered from financial problems.

Those who lived near him said he had been "depressed and unstable, even aggressive" of late. They put this down to his "marital and financial problems".

Meanwhile two billion Muslims didn't kill anybody this week.

[farreri]

lolol. Take a look at various European countries now. They were all politically-correct too. Now, they've all but lost their nations, their culture and their way of life.

Karma?

[farreri]

Meanwhile two billion Muslims didn't kill anybody this week.

Yep, and christian cops killed a lot of people in the USA this week. This forum does bring up how US cops kill a lot of civilians, but forget to mention most of those cops are probably christians.

[Wilf]

Nice France. Horrible. Muslim.

France has already banned the burka and yet it has been attacked. Interesting.

[LibertyEagle]

Karma?

What's Karma? You're glad that many countries in Europe have all but lost their nations, their culture and their way of life?

Why does that please you? Do tell.

[LibertyEagle]

France has already banned the burka and yet it has been attacked. Interesting.

Because they would have had to ban what is in the burkas to stop that.

[Wilf]

Because they should have banned what is in those burkas, long ago.

You missed the point.

[Thor]

Saw this video on Facebook:



And I had posted this comment below, before it was deleted 30 minutes later by either Facebook or the page owner....

-----------------------------------------------------

This is complex and difficult. By and large, I am no fan of Newt, but I feel I agree with him here, to some degree. Are we being PC despite ourselves? Will being PC kill us in the end? Identifying and targeting those of a certain religion is against the concept of Liberty in and of itself. But these radical attacks against Freedom and Liberty are issues we need to protect ourselves from. It is a matter of how we do it. How do we not give up our rights and privacy, while still rooting out those that wish to harm us?

As America becomes home to more and more immigrants, this problem will only get worse before it gets better, unless we find solutions that respect Liberty while fighting for Liberty. Newt said "Ask them if they support Sharia" - "Uhh... no?" "Ok, you are fine..." as if an enemy would not lie. And monitoring everyone on the Internet that “go to certain sites”? Pointless, as the dark web and other forms of communication will bypass that and only tyranny against everyone will grow. So we need to find a way to balance things... if it is possible.

When you see the sheer number of Muslims that have radicalized Islamic beliefs (watch the YouTube video titled “By The Numbers - The Untold Story of Muslim Opinions & Demographics”), and not just the jihadist, but those that want to implement Sharia Law through the political process elsewhere, and those that believe in killing apostates, etc.. it makes one question the entire Muslim / Islamic faith system at large. Sharia law, does not and will not tolerate Liberty by it’s very principles. How many Muslims exist that do not support Sharia? (According to Mr Harris Zafar who wrote “Muslim Without Sharia?” in the Huffington Post in Feb 2012: “For Mr. Gingrich to ask Muslims to publicly “give up sharia” is akin to asking them to publicly give up the Quran because sharia is simply the Islamic code that guides everyday Muslim beliefs and actions. Sharia is far from merely a set of punishments or legal obligations. Rather, it is a set of obligations of a personal and private nature dictated by faith.” – it is impossible to separate the 2.) So why would ANYONE who is "peaceful" follow a religion that purports violence against others to the degree that it does in the Quran? Sharia or not… (watch the YouTube video: “I have something to say, and many will not like it” by “Dom the Conservative.”) A religion of "conform or die" and “kill all non-believers” in and of itself is a threat to Liberty. But let’s stay PC and polite….

If threats and attacks on Liberty are not defended against, then Liberty is lost. The question is how does one balance the respect Liberty deserves for those who embrace it, while fighting the enemy that wants to destroy it, without destroying Liberty in the process by allowing big brother tyranny to grow in the name of protecting Liberty? Ideas anyone? Is it possible? Or are we doomed to either a tyrannical big brother police state, or an all-out religious war, or both?

----------------------------------------------------

And for those like Zippy who keep saying what about the 2 billion "peaceful" Muslims.. Watch this: (reposted from my thread before)



And this: (reposted from my thread before)



"Peaceful" and "Muslim" do not correlate long term. The goal has always been to have the entire world follow Islam, or be killed. No exceptions. They do not want to coexist like every other religion on the planet. If someone who is a Muslim wants to be peaceful, they need to denounce being a Muslim and find a new religion to follow, because there is nothing "peaceful" about the whole premise of Islam, according to the Quran. And if we keep our head in the sand trying to be accepting and thinking they will embrace Liberty, we will lose Liberty (and/or our lives) by our own ignorance.

[Ender]

Saw this video on Facebook:



And I had posted this comment below, before it was deleted 30 minutes later by either Facebook or the page owner....

-----------------------------------------------------

This is complex and difficult. By and large, I am no fan of Newt, but I feel I agree with him here, to some degree. Are we being PC despite ourselves? Will being PC kill us in the end? Identifying and targeting those of a certain religion is against the concept of Liberty in and of itself. But these radical attacks against Freedom and Liberty are issues we need to protect ourselves from. It is a matter of how we do it. How do we not give up our rights and privacy, while still rooting out those that wish to harm us?

As America becomes home to more and more immigrants, this problem will only get worse before it gets better, unless we find solutions that respect Liberty while fighting for Liberty. Newt said "Ask them if they support Sharia" - "Uhh... no?" "Ok, you are fine..." as if an enemy would not lie. And monitoring everyone on the Internet that “go to certain sites”? Pointless, as the dark web and other forms of communication will bypass that and only tyranny against everyone will grow. So we need to find a way to balance things... if it is possible.

When you see the sheer number of Muslims that have radicalized Islamic beliefs (watch the YouTube video titled “By The Numbers - The Untold Story of Muslim Opinions & Demographics”), and not just the jihadist, but those that want to implement Sharia Law through the political process elsewhere, and those that believe in killing apostates, etc.. it makes one question the entire Muslim / Islamic faith system at large. Sharia law, does not and will not tolerate Liberty by it’s very principles. How many Muslims exist that do not support Sharia? (According to Mr Harris Zafar who wrote “Muslim Without Sharia?” in the Huffington Post in Feb 2012: “For Mr. Gingrich to ask Muslims to publicly “give up sharia” is akin to asking them to publicly give up the Quran because sharia is simply the Islamic code that guides everyday Muslim beliefs and actions. Sharia is far from merely a set of punishments or legal obligations. Rather, it is a set of obligations of a personal and private nature dictated by faith.” – it is impossible to separate the 2.) So why would ANYONE who is "peaceful" follow a religion that purports violence against others to the degree that it does in the Quran? Sharia or not… (watch the YouTube video: “I have something to say, and many will not like it” by “Dom the Conservative.”) A religion of "conform or die" and “kill all non-believers” in and of itself is a threat to Liberty. But let’s stay PC and polite….

If threats and attacks on Liberty are not defended against, then Liberty is lost. The question is how does one balance the respect Liberty deserves for those who embrace it, while fighting the enemy that wants to destroy it, without destroying Liberty in the process by allowing big brother tyranny to grow in the name of protecting Liberty? Ideas anyone? Is it possible? Or are we doomed to either a tyrannical big brother police state, or an all-out religious war, or both?

----------------------------------------------------

And for those like Zippy who keep saying what about the 2 billion "peaceful" Muslims.. Watch this: (reposted from my thread before)



And this: (reposted from my thread before)



"Peaceful" and "Muslim" do not correlate long term. The goal has always been to have the entire world follow Islam, or be killed. No exceptions. They do not want to coexist like every other religion on the planet. If someone who is a Muslim wants to be peaceful, they need to denounce being a Muslim and find a new religion to follow, because there is nothing "peaceful" about the whole premise of Islam, according to the Quran. And if we keep our head in the sand trying to be accepting and thinking they will embrace Liberty, we will lose Liberty (and/or our lives) by our own ignorance.

Uh... no.

There are many different sects of Islam as there are in Christianity. Only a small % are pron to violence.

Of course we have US Christian ministers calling for gays to be shot.

Here is the stats on American Muslims:

Indeed, the truth about Muslims in America is perhaps surprising -- but not in the way Trump and his supporters might think.

A look at polls and studies conducted in the last few years shows that Muslims have been crucial in helping law enforcement find terror suspects in the United States. Many have served in the military protecting the country against terrorists. And in many ways, they're a lot like other everyday Americans.
Here's the reality of Muslims in America -- and how it smashes stereotypes:

They are a minuscule portion of the U.S. population
It's difficult to come by hard numbers because the U.S. Census doesn't collect religious data. But the fear of Muslims taking over and imposing Sharia law is unfounded. By some estimates, Muslims make up less than 1% of the U.S. adult population. By 2050, their numbers will grow -- to 2.1%. Of all the Muslims in America, 63% are exactly the kind Trump wants banned -- immigrants.

They're better educated than most Americans
U.S. Muslims have the second-highest level of education among major religious groups in the country; Jews have the highest. And a greater proportion of them have college degrees than the general U.S. population.

They have more gender equality
While in many parts of the Muslim world, women are confined to second-class status, that's not the case among American Muslims. Virtually all of them, 90%, agree that women should be able to work outside the home. American Muslim women hold more college or postgraduate degrees than Muslim men. And they are more likely to work in professional fields than women from most other U.S. religious groups.

They've been here since the birth of the nation ...
Scholars estimate about a quarter to a third of the Africans brought to the United States as slaves were Muslims. Most were then forced to convert to Christianity.

... and they're not just clustered in big cities
American Muslims live in cities big and small all across the United States. The first mosque built in America was in, of all places, Ross, North Dakota, back in 1929.

They're as religious as Christians ...
The general perception of Muslims has one thing right: Most Muslims are very religious. About half say they attend the weekly Friday prayers. But that makes them similar to Christians: About 70% of Christians say religion is important in their lives, and about 45% go to a weekly service.

... but they're not as dogmatic as they are portrayed
Much has been made about fundamentalist Muslims and their strict interpretation of the Quran. But most American Muslims are different. A Pew religious landscape survey found that 57% of American Muslims say there is more than one way to interpret Islam's teachings. A similar number say many different religions can lead to eternal life.

There have been Muslims involved in terrorism ...
From September 11, 2001, until the end of 2014, 109 Muslim-Americans plotted against targets in the United States. And terrorism by Muslim-Americans killed 50 in the same time period. Contrast that with the deaths from other mass shootings just last year: 136 -- more than twice as many as all the deaths from 13 years of Muslim-American terrorism.

... but they've also spoken out against it
After every terrorist attack at home and abroad, the refrain rises, "Where is the Muslim condemnation?" American Muslims have spoken out -- and done much more. A Duke University study found more terrorism suspects and perpetrators were brought to the attention of law enforcement by members of the Muslim-American community than were discovered through U.S. government investigations. And a Pew survey found that roughly half of U.S. Muslims say their religious leaders aren't speaking out enough against Islamic extremism.

[Suzanimal]

...

If threats and attacks on Liberty are not defended against, then Liberty is lost. The question is how does one balance the respect Liberty deserves for those who embrace it, while fighting the enemy that wants to destroy it, without destroying Liberty in the process by allowing big brother tyranny to grow in the name of protecting Liberty? Ideas anyone? Is it possible? Or are we doomed to either a tyrannical big brother police state, or an all-out religious war, or both?

I believe I already stated it earlier but I think allowing people to decline to serve people for whatever reason (burka wearers) in their businesses would go a long way to making people feel unwelcome. Shunning works.

[Thor]

I believe I already stated it earlier but I think allowing people to decline to serve people for whatever reason (burka wearers) in their businesses would go a long way to making people feel unwelcome. Shunning works.

Until they are the recipient of a bomb attack... But sure, we could try that. But many will say that is a violation of their rights. So balance that....

[Thor]

Uh... no.

There are many different sects of Islam as there are in Christianity. Only a small % are pron to violence.

Of course we have US Christian ministers calling for gays to be shot.

Here is the stats on American Muslims:

The goal is to have enough numbers as a percentage to institute the changes the Quran teaches them to institute.

[Ender]

The goal is to have enough numbers as a percentage to institute the changes the Quran teaches them to institute.

Have you read the Quran?

[Suzanimal]

Until they are the recipient of an bomb attack...

That's also a risk if you ban burkas.

But sure, we could try that. But many will say that is a violation of their rights. So balance that....

Private property. My property, my rules.

If it's an inhospitable place for Muslims, I doubt they would put a mosque there. No mosque, no Muslims. Say a Mosque approaches you, a construction company owner, you should be able to tell them to take a hike. Does that mean another company won't take the job? No but peer pressure is strong and you may be able to convince them otherwise. Same with grocery store owners and whatnot.

[Thor]

Have you read the Quran?

Ha... no. I have no interest in fairy tales from a violent, murderer, rapist and child molester. I can read other people summaries and review for all I need to know about this fictional work. And while I am generally a "Christian", I have not read all of the bible either. Nor the satanic bible... nor the Torah.... I am not a big fan of any laws by man portrayed as coming from a "higher authority." Religion is control. Spirituality is personal. At the end of the day, it comes back being good to others. Not directing others to kill those that do no obey your "rules."

[Ender]

Ha... no. I have no interest in fairy tales from a violent, murderer, rapist and child molester. I can read other people summaries and review for all I need to know about this fictional work. And while I am generally a "Christian", I have not read all of the bible either. Nor the satanic bible... nor the Torah.... I am not a big fan of any laws by man portrayed as coming from a "higher authority." Religion is control. Spirituality is personal. At the end of the day, it comes back being good to others. Not directing others to kill those that do no obey your "rules."

That's cool- no worries on my side.

Just sayin' the Quran is not what a lot of people think it is. For instance, the word Jihad actually means at war with one's self; a battle to better oneself- has nothing to do with killing others. There are many different sects in Islam- just like Christianity- and only a very few are war-like.

Of course, some of the hate would certainly stop if the west would quit bombing their countries.

We can only hope.

Thanks for being amiable on this topic- very refreshing.

[Thor]

That's cool- no worries on my side.

Just sayin' the Quran is not what a lot of people think it is. For instance, the word Jihad actually means at war with one's self; a battle to better oneself- has nothing to do with killing others. There are many different sects in Islam- just like Christianity- and only a very few are war-like.

Of course, some of the hate would certainly stop if the west would quit bombing their countries.

We can only hope.

Thanks for being amiable on this topic- very refreshing.

And thank you for discussion. I do not want to categorize an entire religion, but so far, all roads point in one direction.

I believe jihad means both a holy war and a personal struggle. According to Webster:

Full Definition of jihad

• a holy war waged on behalf of Islam as a religious duty; also : a personal struggle in devotion to Islam especially involving spiritual discipline
• a crusade for a principle or belief

And I agree, the west has kicked the hornets nest, repeatedly. However, I think their goal regardless of us or any other western nation bombing them, is to spread Islam worldwide. So any bombing just increases the drive to do what they are wanting to do, or told to do via the Quran, regardless.

And while there may be different sects, like Christianity, when you look at the statistics as portrayed in the "By the Numbers" video (previously posted) and see the amount that believe in killing apostates, killing those that engage in premarital and extramarital sex, believe in honor killings, it is a large number of people. 25% of the world population of Muslims is significant.

Did you hear about Qandeel Baloch this past Friday? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ps-photos.html

'Qandeel Baloch has been killed, she was strangled to death by her brother. Apparently it was an incident of honour killing,' Sultan Azam, senior police officer in Multan, said.

.....

Hundreds of women are murdered for 'honour' every year in Pakistan. The killers overwhelmingly walk free because of a law that allows the family of the victim to forgive the murderer - who is often also a relative.

.....

News of the murder was trending on social media in Pakistan, with liberal users calling for action, but some conservatives - including users identified as women - condemning Baloch's relentless self-promotion.

In one typical comment, Twitter user @JiaAli wrote: 'Someone had to do it. She was a disgrace.'

So, how do you differentiate the "sects" to find those that are peaceful, that do not follow the parts of the Quran that call for killings for honor, killing apostates, killing those that don't convert, cutting off hands of thieves... where do you draw the line to say, this sect is ok, this one is not? How do you know when they are moving in and setting up their communities which "sect" they are and what they believe in their hearts?

Yes, there are some Christian extremists. Like those what call for killing gays. But they are rare, and they are admonished by most other Christians, and our laws. Muslims by an large do not admonish the extremists; and in many cases their laws, where those laws are allowed to be fully practiced, support those behaviors that are contrary to Liberty. If there are sects that are peaceful to the degree that is required for Liberty to remain viable for the world, and they want to coexist peacefully and not take over and convert others, then by definition of the Quran and what Islam teaches, they are "sinners" and they would be better off to leave the Muslim faith all together due to the more radical beliefs held by so many in the core Muslim faith, and form a new faith and not just be a "sect" of a faith tattered with such extreme positions - but that is just my thought...

[Thor]

That's also a risk if you ban burkas.

And potentially a risk even if you don't.

Private property. My property, my rules.

If it's an inhospitable place for Muslims, I doubt they would put a mosque there. No mosque, no Muslims. Say a Mosque approaches you, a construction company owner, you should be able to tell them to take a hike. Does that mean another company won't take the job? No but peer pressure is strong and you may be able to convince them otherwise. Same with grocery store owners and whatnot.

Yes, but that means everyone acting in unison. And there will be those that want to give them a chance, or a Muslim construction company they bring in to do what they want. If they follow all the "laws", then they can succeed. We have anti-discrimination laws today. So under our current method of government, what you suggest is not possible. And if it were not part of our current form of government, then it would be anti-Liberty in being discriminatory... So by the grace of Liberty, we jeopardize Liberty... ironic, eh?

[Suzanimal]

And potentially a risk even if you don't.




Yes, but that means everyone acting in unison.

Not necessarily but you would definitely need a majority. Same as with a burka ban. The difference is, the people who disagree wouldn't be forced to participate.

And there will be those that want to give them a chance, or a Muslim construction company they bring in to do what they want. If they follow all the "laws", then they can succeed.

That's always a possibility.

We have anti-discrimination laws today. So under our current method of government, what you suggest is not possible.

Indeed. The same also applies to the burka ban.

And if it were not part of our current form of government, then it would be anti-Liberty in being discriminatory...So by the grace of Liberty, we jeopardize Liberty... ironic, eh?

No it wouldn't. How is it anti-liberty to discriminate on your own property? I would say it's anti liberty to force people (through government - like the burka ban you suggested) to discriminate but I don't see how restricting the use of my business is anti-liberty. It might make me an $#@! but at least I wouldn't be a coward siccing the government on people I don't like. I consider it anti liberty to legislate to other people how they should use their property.

[Danke]

This thread makes me realize I haven't been very inclusive with the newcomers in my community.

I'm gonna sponsor a wet burka contest as a welcoming gesture and a way to get to know my new neighbors.

[Thor]

No it wouldn't. How is it anti-liberty to discriminate on your own property? I would say it's anti liberty to force people (through government - like the burka ban you suggested) to discriminate but I don't see how restricting the use of my business is anti-liberty. It might make me an $#@! but at least I wouldn't be a coward siccing the government on people I don't like. I consider it anti liberty to legislate to other people how they should use their property.

When your own property is a publicly used establishment, then do you need to allow other people to have their liberty, even when that infringes upon your own liberty? It is a fine line to balance liberty for everyone. Whose liberty is more important? The business holder, or the customers? "We don't serve women, get out." That OK? And maybe that is OK.

And I did NOT suggest a burka ban. You did not read my posts obviously. But I think I mentioned that (to you) before in a previous post. I know have reiterated that a couple times.

[Suzanimal]

When your own property is a publicly used establishment, then do you need to allow other people to have their liberty, even when that infringes upon your own liberty?

No.

It is a fine line to balance liberty for everyone. Whose liberty is more important? The business holder, or the customers? "We don't serve women, get out." That OK? And maybe that is OK.

Fine with me.

And I did NOT suggest a burka ban.

That was the whole premise of the thread but you are correct, the last sentence (highlighted below) you said to ban the Muslim faith. My points still stand.

You did not read my posts obviously. But I think I mentioned that (to you) before in a previous post. I know have reiterated that a couple times.

Back to insinuating I'm a liar? Just come right out and say it. I DID read your posts. I read that post 9 days ago, I guess I failed to hang on to your every word.

Is the act of banning the burka, indirectly helping to preserve Liberty?

If something is a threat to Liberty, then in order to preserve Liberty shouldn't action be taken against the threat? In fighting for Liberty, one is pitted against the State. If religion is trying to take away Liberty, doesn't the same apply?

I feel people deserve the right to Liberty and Freedom, and to worship as they see fit. As long as it does not infringe upon the rights of another. But I feel that if something is an enemy of Liberty, one must be vigilant in fighting against that threat, whatever form it takes, to preserve said Liberty. If allowing someone else to have their Liberty is allowing a potential threat to your own Liberty, it is short sighted to allow it to begin with.

Here were my thoughts I was going to post this AM on TLR post before it was deleted. I am not sure if these thoughts are fully correct or not, as I am still working through it all.

...
I say: In the name of Liberty - allow the burka, but ban the Muslim religion.

I am not set on that answer, and I welcome constructive feedback on it. But my current thinking is, if by allowing someone else to exercise their Liberty, who has the ultimate goal of taking your own Liberty away, why would you do it?

If any of you feel that the Muslim religion does not want to ultimately take away Liberty and freedom, I welcome your feedback.

Don't flame, I am honestly trying to look deeper at this issue.

[Zippyjuan]

Ha... no. I have no interest in fairy tales from a violent, murderer, rapist and child molester. I can read other people summaries and review for all I need to know about this fictional work. And while I am generally a "Christian", I have not read all of the bible either. Nor the satanic bible... nor the Torah.... I am not a big fan of any laws by man portrayed as coming from a "higher authority." Religion is control. Spirituality is personal. At the end of the day, it comes back being good to others. Not directing others to kill those that do no obey your "rules."

The Bible and the Quran actually share a large number of texts and prophets. They even believe in the Virgin Mary and that Jesus was a prophet (they don't consider him the Son of God though). Every religion has their own violent extremists. Does that make everybody violent?

[farreri]

What's Karma? You're glad that many countries in Europe have all but lost their nations, their culture and their way of life?

Why does that please you? Do tell.

You don't know what karma is? Seriously?

Never said it pleases me. Just offering up a reason why it's happening.