Income tax: Ever calculated how wealthy you'd be without it?

[amy31416]

I don't have all the documents to make the calculations, but I'm wondering if anyone has kept track of how much wealth they'd have if they never had to pay income taxes.

I think these numbers could be quite an eye-opener to middle class folks who are currently struggling, and I've never seen articles discussing this.

I'm sure there's someone out there who tracks this sort of thing.

[ILUVRP]

i will ask mitt if i see him.

[Dr.3D]

i will ask mitt if i see him.

Yeah, he would probably know.

[Steven Douglas]

It's all going to be different based on what everyone does differently with their income. Assuming just savings, and no investments to speak of, they'd certainly be a sight wealthier than they are now, but still much worse off than they should be, because of the hidden inflation tax from a thoroughly DEBAUCHED currency, which is still very much in effect.

The income tax is a way of cannibalizing just you. The inflation tax is a way of feasting on you AND your children and grandchildren.

[Zippyjuan]

For 46% of income tax filers, it won't make any difference since that is the pecent who end up owning no income taxes.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/26/pf/t...-tax/index.htm

The Tax Policy Center estimates that for tax year 2011, 46% of households will end up owing nothing in federal income taxes.

The percentage was closer to 40% before the recession, Greenstein said.

[cubical]

For 46% of income tax filers, it won't make any difference since that is the pecent who end up owning no income taxes.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/04/26/pf/t...-tax/index.htm

well the money would flow to lower income workers. employers could not afford to keep talent if they did not raise their salary.

[Zippyjuan]

Why would an employer be giving you (lower income workers) more money? Employers don't pay your income taxes (they do pay half of the Social Security taxes). They may withhold the taxes but don't pay them. Getting rid of income taxes doesn't give them any more money to pass along to workers (and this assumes that they won't keep any extra money if there was some in the first place for themselves or share holders).

It is the higher income workers (the 52% who do pay income taxes) who would have more money to spend if the income tax was eliminated.

[LibForestPaul]

I do not calculate as "personal wealth". I calculate it in how much suffering would be alleviated and progress would have occurred without parasites feasting on human chattle. I estimate we would be 50 years advanced, minimum. Probably would have already have colonies on the moon.

[The Free Hornet]

I do not calculate as "personal wealth". I calculate it in how much suffering would be alleviated and progress would have occurred without parasites feasting on human chattle. I estimate we would be 50 years advanced, minimum. Probably would have already have colonies on the moon.

Yes (however I don't know about Newt's moon colonies). It is about quality of life and living in a free society that cherishes individual liberty. Would you rather be rich and in jail or poor but free?

[TheTexan]

threw this together http://jsfiddle.net/8pr4k/embedded/result/

[oyarde]

Looking at just what I had at Social Security and medicaid , only the first 30 years I worked , I would be retired next year , working part time , now, expecting to work another 15 yrears....

[KingRobbStark]

You kidding. The filthy IRS did an audit of my dads business (for the year 2010), and they claimed that he owes over 200k. That's not even including the penalties, and interest. They said they will calculate that later. $#@!ing pigs. Though that doesn't makes any sense, because my dad doesn't even pay that much on taxes to start with. So how can he owe more than what he originally pays? Can anyone offer any input?

[John F Kennedy III]

You kidding. The filthy IRS did an audit of my dads business (for the year 2010), and they claimed that he owes over 200k. That's not even including the penalties, and interest. They said they will calculate that later. $#@!ing pigs. Though that doesn't makes any sense, because my dad doesn't even pay that much on taxes to start with. So how can he owe more than what he originally pays? Can anyone offer any input?

Bump

[oyarde]

//

[osan]

I don't have all the documents to make the calculations, but I'm wondering if anyone has kept track of how much wealth they'd have if they never had to pay income taxes.

Impossible to tell without making assumptions, but I would perhaps be somewhere around $100 million. Maybe more even... hard to say.

[Mundane]

I don't know, but I do know I paid the same amount in personal income tax in 2 months as I did in one year income tax, just before incorporating, making the same money.

[cubical]

Why would an employer be giving you (lower income workers) more money? Employers don't pay your income taxes (they do pay half of the Social Security taxes). They may withhold the taxes but don't pay them. Getting rid of income taxes doesn't give them any more money to pass along to workers (and this assumes that they won't keep any extra money if there was some in the first place for themselves or share holders).

It is the higher income workers (the 52% who do pay income taxes) who would have more money to spend if the income tax was eliminated.

Because those who employ will have more money to do so. If you and I owned a business and we both instantly got a 20% raise(due to no longer paying taxes), I would have more money to hire away your talent and more money to bid on future labor. Either you would have to match me or out bid me.

[Zippyjuan]

I don't see why if your personal income taxes went down you would use that money to hire more people at the company you work for or run- very few people would. Obviously I can't speak for what you personally would do of course but what would occur?

Now if the people who did get tax reductions spend that extra money they got at your business then you may hire more people due to the increased sales. Let's say you had your own business and not some big corporation and you made $100k a year and then get a tax reduction of $20k (using your 20% figure). Would you use that money yourself- vacation? Buy something? Put it into an investment or retirement? or would you hire a person to work for you at $20k a year? Most would use the money themselves.

[Danke]

I don't see why if your personal income taxes went down you would use that money to hire more people at the company you work for or run- very few people would. Obviously I can't speak for what you personally would do of course but what would occur?

Now if the people who did get tax reductions spend that extra money they got at your business then you may hire more people due to the increased sales. Let's say you had your own business and not some big corporation and you made $100k a year and then get a tax reduction of $20k (using your 20% figure). Would you use that money yourself- vacation? Buy something? Put it into an investment or retirement? or would you hire a person to work for you at $20k a year? Most would use the money themselves.

And that would be a bad thing vs. a bureaucrat spending it for you?

[Zippyjuan]

Didn't say it would be a bad thing. Everybody would like to have a bit more money.

As long as you weren't adding more to the deficit to do it too (offset with government spending reductions). Except you can't do that without major reductions in Social Security, Medicare and defense spending- things people get very upset about if you talk about cutting (and a sure way for a politian to get voted out of office if they try). Otherwise, you can cut every item left in the budget and still not be able to balance it and allow any tax reductions without adding to the debt.

Quick numbers. Current deficit: about $1.2 trillion. Income tax revenues: also about $1.2 trillion a year. If you want to get rid of income taxes and not increase the debt you need to cut about $2.5 trillion out of the $3.1 trillion budget (which includes all that Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid, Defense spending, interest on the debt, etc). That leaves about $600 billion and interest on the debt alone eats up about half of that.

[cubical]

I don't see why if your personal income taxes went down you would use that money to hire more people at the company you work for or run- very few people would. Obviously I can't speak for what you personally would do of course but what would occur?

Now if the people who did get tax reductions spend that extra money they got at your business then you may hire more people due to the increased sales. Let's say you had your own business and not some big corporation and you made $100k a year and then get a tax reduction of $20k (using your 20% figure). Would you use that money yourself- vacation? Buy something? Put it into an investment or retirement? or would you hire a person to work for you at $20k a year? Most would use the money themselves.

You don't see talent as an essential part to business? If you have more free resources to grow your business, you will pay for the best employees or you will get passed by your competition. Why do you believe everyone would take that 20% and consume it?

[Danke]

Didn't say it would be a bad thing.

O.K. Would it not then be a good thing?

[brushfire]

My house would have been paid off while I was still in my 20's

[Zippyjuan]

You don't see talent as an essential part to business? If you have more free resources to grow your business, you will pay for the best employees or you will get passed by your competition. Why do you believe everyone would take that 20% and consume it?

No-they won't all go out and spend the entire 20% (assuming they would be getting 20%- as mentioned earlier, 46% of people would be getting zero extra dollars since they end up owing no net taxes)- as I pointed out they could save it or invest it in addition to spending it. Those at higher income levels would be less likely to spend it (and more likely to receive a reduction in taxes) since they already have more of what they could want or need.

And so, you would be willing to take your own personal tax refund and use it to hire somebody else? Or would you use it for yourself as well? Do you do that when you get a raise? (same net effect). The question here was if you had your personal income taxes reduced or eliminated would you use that money on yourself or would you hire more people to work for you. (Unless you really paid a lot in taxes, in most cases we are probably not talking about enough money to hire more than one or two people- if you are making over $200,000 a year that would put you in the top five percent of incomes in the US). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Un..._1947-2007.svg

This is a completely separate question from "do you have to pay a premium to attract qualified workers" which is the second question. That depends on the labor market. If the demand for qualified workers is higher than the supply then you probably do have to pay more to attract the best workers. If there are plenty of qualified workers looking for work in the field then you can pick and choose without offering a higher salary.

[Zippyjuan]

Some figures for actual tax rates (not marginal tax rates) for some income groups:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...who-pays-them/

For example, the Congressional Budget Office found that, in 2005, the highest 10 percent of households in terms of income paid 16 percent of their income in federal income tax. The next 10 percent of households in terms of income paid 12 percent of their income.

At the same time, the bottom 40 percent of households in terms of income owed, on average, no tax, in the sense that those households received more in refundable income tax credits than they paid in tax.

So if you were in the top 10% and the income tax was eliminated, you would have on average 16% more money. Since $200,000 would get you into the Top 10%, if you made less than that you would get $20,000 or less (ten percent) more a year. If you were in the next ten percent bracket, your income would increase by twelve percent (this ignores other taxation- real disposable (after all taxes) income would increase by a higher percentage). If you made $40,000 or less, you would be the same income wise with or without it.

If you were a business man and making $100k a year (our example earlier) you would then have $12,000 to spend (if you wanted) on your business to hire somebody or invest in equipment or spend on yourself or save or invest it (your paycheck would be $833 bigger each month- going from $8,333 to $9,166 a month- not counting things like Social Security taxes or other withholdings).

[Danke]

O.K. Would it not then be a good thing?

Those at higher income levels would be less likely to spend it (and more likely to receive a reduction in taxes) since they already have more of what they could want or need.

I figured as much.

[cubical]

No-they won't all go out and spend the entire 20% (assuming they would be getting 20%- as mentioned earlier, 46% of people would be getting zero extra dollars since they end up owing no net taxes)- as I pointed out they could save it or invest it in addition to spending it. Those at higher income levels would be less likely to spend it (and more likely to receive a reduction in taxes) since they already have more of what they could want or need.

And so, you would be willing to take your own personal tax refund and use it to hire somebody else? Or would you use it for yourself as well? Do you do that when you get a raise? (same net effect). The question here was if you had your personal income taxes reduced or eliminated would you use that money on yourself or would you hire more people to work for you. (Unless you really paid a lot in taxes, in most cases we are probably not talking about enough money to hire more than one or two people- if you are making over $200,000 a year that would put you in the top five percent of incomes in the US). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Un..._1947-2007.svg

This is a completely separate question from "do you have to pay a premium to attract qualified workers" which is the second question. That depends on the labor market. If the demand for qualified workers is higher than the supply then you probably do have to pay more to attract the best workers. If there are plenty of qualified workers looking for work in the field then you can pick and choose without offering a higher salary.

Some would be used on consumption, some on investment. The fact that some would be used on investment would mean that more people would get productive jobs and those who are already working(I assume they have some sort of higher skillset) will get paid more. It is simple supply and demand. There would be a demand for labor, due to more savings and potential production, thus labor prices would rise. So of course I would use my money to hire someone else and keep my best workers. It means more more consumption in the future for me.

[evilfunnystuff]

I don't see why if your personal income taxes went down you would use that money to hire more people at the company you work for or run- very few people would. Obviously I can't speak for what you personally would do of course but what would occur?

Now if the people who did get tax reductions spend that extra money they got at your business then you may hire more people due to the increased sales. Let's say you had your own business and not some big corporation and you made $100k a year and then get a tax reduction of $20k (using your 20% figure). Would you use that money yourself- vacation? Buy something? Put it into an investment or retirement? or would you hire a person to work for you at $20k a year? Most would use the money themselves.

But you are not seeing the forest see the forest for the trees, outside of burying it in a secret spot for retirement, everything you could possibly do with it is creating more demand for workers.

This would create a more lucrative job market for everybody.

[blustreeak]

"Why would an employer be giving you (lower income workers) more money? Employers don't pay your income taxes (they do pay half of the Social Security taxes). They may withhold the taxes but don't pay them. Getting rid of income taxes doesn't give them any more money to pass along to workers (and this assumes that they won't keep any extra money if there was some in the first place for themselves or share holders)."

A family member of mine makes around 500k net a year and runs a small business. He ends up paying around 120k in Income taxes every year. I asked him if he had to pay no income tax would he hire more workers. He said yes, he would also add an intern or two because he gets a lot of requests for that, but takes on only a few because of the costs. He also said he would give his employee's better holiday bonuses and likely hirer another young young worker and maybe a part time marketer to expand a little bit. Small businesses employ most of America. To say that those owners who run them would not pass along income they saved to their workers if income tax is eliminated is not true in my opinion. Without the income tax America grew to be the envy of the world with immigrants coming here non-stop to be a part of our way of life. Our economy is imploding for lots of reasons, but one of them is we are punishing the productive and discouraging hiring by taxing them out the wazoo.

I strongly disagree that reducing the income tax would have no effect on low income workers income's. I think they would see a rise in their wealth with more opportunities for employment and businesses being able to be more liberal with their resources because they would be getting to keep more of their fruits of their labor.

[EcoWarrier]

I strongly disagree that reducing the income tax would have no effect on low income workers income's. I think they would see a rise in their wealth with more opportunities for employment and businesses being able to be more liberal with their resources because they would be getting to keep more of their fruits of their labor.

100% correct. Do not tax production by abolishing income, sales and property taxes. Use commonly created wealth to fund common services. Geonomics does that.