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Thread: Why Libertarians are Failing at Politics

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Until then, doing what you are suggesting is suicide. No thanks.
    Suicide for whom? The federal government?

    Oh, crap! I never realized that before! If we don't do something we find abhorrent with something we find abhorrent, it might cease to exist!

    Well, you finally convinced me, LE.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  3. #62
    The very best libertarians aren't failing at politics. Hell, they aren't even playing the idiotic statist's game.
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 11-23-2015 at 06:55 AM.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Yelling will not change history Contumacious. Maybe it is time for you to do a little research before posting. Search Google for topics like "Operation Wetback" and Mexico mass deportations (they occurred before Operation Wetback during the Great Depression through to the Second World War).
    OPERATION WETBACK ORIGINATED IN MEXICO.


    THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT
    WANTED TO FORCE THE MEXICANS TO GO BACK.

    BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.


    .
    .
    .DON'T TAX ME BRO!!!

    .
    .
    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)

  5. #64
    Caps lock stuck?



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    Number 8 as provided by example above.

    8. libertarians have a reputation for the inability to make a logical coherent argument to promote their beliefs but rather attack those that question their ideology.

    In my case, I was not even attacking libertarianism but rather describing why I believe the average person is not buying into it. Yet look at the Contumacious reply.
    Quite the contrary in my experience. Competent libertarians are well versed in both libertarian and non-libertarian philosophy, argumentation, etc. If you've only talked to some kids on the interwebz or LP guys, you're talking mostly to n00bs and getting an invalid sample.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Perhaps he isn't saying that, because there would be no way for him to deliver it.
    His dad could have delivered it.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  9. #67
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


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    kahless asserts: Fixation over the legalization of marijuana over everything else. Appearing as single issue young and druggie voters.



    ...first, honest, knowledgeable 'libertarians' don't want ?your stinking republicrats to 'legalize' 'drugs'...they want ?your stinking republicrats to acknowledge that what plants people grow and use, what people self-medicate with, ingest, etc., falls into the HUGE realm of individual freedom and personal responsibility...and that it's ?your stinking republicrat prohibitionist peckerheads who have truly 'fixated' on using 'the law' to enforce their stinking stoooooooooooooooooooooooopid republicrat preferences...'libertarians' want these hideous, destructive laws repealed...not some hazy, gd fool 'legalization'...

    ....i recently had a conversation with an old tea bag republican fool who spoke in terms similar to you when he said, "you libertarians are always trying to push your drug agenda on people"...



    ....this from a goddamned republican fool who wants government/taxes used to push his stinking drug war agenda even as he works his blowhole complaining about 'big bad government'!!... goddamned. republicrat. fools.
    Last edited by H. E. Panqui; 11-23-2015 at 11:44 AM.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    we eat our own.
    Hank E. Panqui is banned too? And still Carless and Swordshyll are allowed to impugn anyone at will with impunity?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-07-2018 at 10:32 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  11. #69
    What is badly needed is 1) leadership 2) an organized party with a clear agenda and strong organization.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    What is badly needed is 1) leadership 2) an organized party with a clear agenda and strong organization.
    You are not the only one who knows about it and that's why you will never get it.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    You are not the only one who knows about it and that's why you will never get it.
    This makes no sense at all.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    This makes no sense at all.
    Leadership is despised in politics. Anybody with strong leadership skills is compared to Hitler.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    This makes no sense at all.
    Of course it does. It's one of the few things he has posted on this forum which does make perfect sense.

    You are underestimating the enemy. You are also overlooking the thing they have and we don't, without which leadership and organization are meaningless--money to buy air time, commercials, pundits and media outlets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  17. #74
    The lack of a clear vision is the final nail in the coffin. If we could pick 5 things we can all agree on and go to work on those five things, we might be able to get people to realize we have an intelligent group that knows how to get things done.

    Pick something and get it done.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    The lack of a clear vision is the final nail in the coffin. If we could pick 5 things we can all agree on and go to work on those five things, we might be able to get people to realize we have an intelligent group that knows how to get things done.

    Pick something and get it done.
    In 2008 and 2012 we picked one thing. We set out to demonstrate to the American people that they can tell the good primary candidates by seeing who the MSM decides to black out and ignore. In 2016 the public decided the ones the MSM talk about 24/7 on 365 channels at once, but talks mean and nasty about, must be on our side.

    Evil is relentless. It never sleeps. Or if it does, it doesn't matter, because it can afford to hire three shifts of hungry workers to do its dirty work.

    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-07-2018 at 10:00 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  19. #76
    The rise of the LP will probably happen when something really bad happens. If both parties stand together to devalue the US dollar to control the national debt, broke and hungry people might start looking for real answers.

    Who am I kidding...the Dems will blame the Republican. The Republicans will blame the Dems. They will both raise tons of money from supporters to blame each other. Things will go to sheet and I'll be looking to migrate somewhere where freedom is not defined by having two choices of who to vote for.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    In 2008 and 2012 we picked one thing. We set out to demonstrate to the American people that they can tell the good primary candidates by seeing who the MSM decides to black out and ignore. In 2016 the public decided the ones the MSM talk about 24/7 on 365 channels at once, but talks mean and nasty about, must be on our side.

    Evil is relentless. It never sleeps. Or if it does, it doesn't matter, because it can afford to hire three shifts of hungry workers to do its dirty work.
    If you mean you all proved how to fail, then that was a very good example. Using a political campaign to show he media is stupid and biased is not a real strong goal that mobilizes people to support the movement.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    If you mean you all proved how to fail, then that was a very good example. Using a political campaign to show he media is stupid and biased is not a real strong goal that mobilizes people to support the movement.
    Disagree. Ron Paul becoming He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named was a major factor in my understanding the prison we are all in.

    This can be a real learning tool, when one awakes from The Matrix.

    Real Libertarianism is the rule of self-ownership & self-governance. As an individual, I should be able to do whatever I please, as long as I am not forcing it on others.
    There is no spoon.

  22. #79
    Playing the victim card is not an endearing quality. Prepare to be pissed off:

    In terms of behavior, these days I can hardly tell the difference between the libertarians and say, BLM, when it comes to the "victim Olympics." If you believe our rights are under attack, you're right. But moping around with a bottle pressed against your head 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, is not exactly inspiring a groundswell of support. People don't want to line up behind victims, they want to line up behind fighters. [Libertarians have an additional dilemma in that it goes against their nature to "lead" people, but you're gonna have to get over that sh*t, quick.]

    I said in 2016 that if you want to win, start taking notes from Trump. Adopt his tactics, but not his principles. Yes, even the alpha male bulls***. Once you have the attention of the populists (and yes, you're gonna need those people, so it might behoove you to stop hating on them based off of some nutcase in Europe last century using populism for evil and therefore the concept is somehow forever tainted, forever and ever, amen) by distinguishing yourself not as a victim, but a victor, you can pretty much lead people wherever you want to, for better or worse.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 11-07-2018 at 10:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Disagree. Ron Paul becoming He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named was a major factor in my understanding the prison we are all in.

    This can be a real learning tool, when one awakes from The Matrix.

    Real Libertarianism is the rule of self-ownership & self-governance. As an individual, I should be able to do whatever I please, as long as I am not forcing it on others.
    You aren't in denial. Saying libertarians failed Ron Paul is a form of denying that humans are herd animals and easily led to slaughter. It isn't their fault they keep voting themselves into deeper tyranny; it must be our fault for being lousy salesmen...

    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Playing the victim card is not an endearing quality. Prepare to be pissed off:

    In terms of behavior, these days I can hardly tell the difference between the libertarians and say, BLM, when it comes to the "victim Olympics." If you believe our rights are under attack, you're right. But moping around with a bottle pressed against your head 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, is not exactly inspiring a groundswell of support. People don't want to line up behind victims, they want to line up behind fighters. [Libertarians have an additional dilemma in that it goes against their nature to "lead" people, but you're gonna have to get over that sh*t, quick.]

    I said in 2016 that if you want to win, start taking notes from Trump. Adopt his tactics, but not his principles. Yes, even the alpha male bulls***. Once you have the attention of the populists (and yes, you're gonna need those people) by distinguishing yourself not as a victim, but a victor, you can pretty much lead them wherever you want to, for better or worse.
    You are right. You are absolutely, positively right. And yet, do we have no rational reason to be discouraged from time to time?

    The big question in my mind, and the one I would lionize you for answering in a viable manner is, a major part of Trump's tactics was getting incessant publicity from the MSM. How do we execute that tactic without adopting his principles? And if we cannot, why would we press forward without first pausing to find a path around that obstacle?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-07-2018 at 11:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You aren't in denial. Saying libertarians failed Ron Paul is a form of denying that humans are herd animals and easily led to slaughter. It isn't their fault they keep voting themselves into deeper tyranny; it must be our fault for being lousy salesmen...



    You are right. You are absolutely, positively right. And yet, do we have no rational reason to be discouraged from time to time?

    The big question in my mind, and the one I would lionize you for answering in a viable manner is, a major part of Trump's tactics was getting incessant publicity from the MSM. How do we execute that tactic without adopting his principles? And if we cannot, why would we press forward without first pausing to find a path around that obstacle?

    I wish I could. LOL. I believe I know what the problem is, but how to solve it? Are there any alpha male, egotistical, reality show -type libertarians out there? Apparently that's what it takes to win the presidency these days. (Rinse the grime off later)
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    I wish I could. LOL. I believe I know what the problem is, but how to solve it? Are there any alpha male, egotistical, reality show -type libertarians out there? Apparently that's what it takes to win the presidency these days. (Rinse the grime off later)
    Yeah, and in 2012 we were saying Ron Paul was too much of that and we were hoping Rand would take our principles more mainstream. We paved the path for Trump but retreated to convention as soon as the cement we poured was ready.

    I personally took libertarians to task for abandoning their horse for the one that won, and refusing to see the signs that he wasn't what they hoped he was. And I still do, though the only ones still clinging to that hope are the shills and the fools. But I don't believe libertarians deserve to be beaten up, or will benefit from beating ourselves up, for not prevailing against overwhelming resources and overwhelming odds.

    I guarantee the enemy isn't wasting time and effort continuing to fight the last battle. They're looking for a way to win the next one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Disagree. Ron Paul becoming He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named was a major factor in my understanding the prison we are all in.

    This can be a real learning tool, when one awakes from The Matrix.

    Real Libertarianism is the rule of self-ownership & self-governance. As an individual, I should be able to do whatever I please, as long as I am not forcing it on others.
    And how is that working for you?
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    And how is that working for you?
    About as well as being the tyrannical majority and forcing bad policies down everyone's throats is working for you all.

    The major difference is you all, like Charlie Sheen, can convince yourselves that shooting all of us in the foot is winning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Playing the victim card is not an endearing quality. Prepare to be pissed off:

    In terms of behavior, these days I can hardly tell the difference between the libertarians and say, BLM, when it comes to the "victim Olympics." If you believe our rights are under attack, you're right. But moping around with a bottle pressed against your head 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, is not exactly inspiring a groundswell of support. People don't want to line up behind victims, they want to line up behind fighters. [Libertarians have an additional dilemma in that it goes against their nature to "lead" people, but you're gonna have to get over that sh*t, quick.]

    I said in 2016 that if you want to win, start taking notes from Trump. Adopt his tactics, but not his principles. Yes, even the alpha male bulls***. Once you have the attention of the populists (and yes, you're gonna need those people, so it might behoove you to stop hating on them based off of some nutcase in Europe last century using populism for evil and therefore the concept is somehow forever tainted, forever and ever, amen) by distinguishing yourself not as a victim, but a victor, you can pretty much lead people wherever you want to, for better or worse.
    ^^^THIS^^^
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #86
    Cheezus, you guys are still talking about "the movement"?
    Rand Paul slit the throat of "the movement" on national TV six years ago when he endorsed Flip Flop Romney.

    I mean literally the moment he did that, every single grassroots effort died. Ron Paul supporters didn't turn into **********s overnight: they had nothing to do for four years and got acclimated slowly.

    My political life, along with that of so many other libertarians, involves nothing more than pointing and laughing at abject fools doing and saying abjectly foolish things. I hate to say it, but we've kept ourselves from doing it to "the movement" for a long, long time now, but maybe that's what's needed to snap you out of this "it's still 2011, all we need is X" mentality.

    Edit: really, we're blanking out "T r u m p a n z e e s"?
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Cheezus, you guys are still talking about "the movement"?
    Rand Paul slit the throat of "the movement" on national TV six years ago when he endorsed Flip Flop Romney.

    I mean literally the moment he did that, every single grassroots effort died. Ron Paul supporters didn't turn into **********s overnight: they had nothing to do for four years and got acclimated slowly.

    My political life, along with that of so many other libertarians, involves nothing more than pointing and laughing at abject fools doing and saying abjectly foolish things. I hate to say it, but we've kept ourselves from doing it to "the movement" for a long, long time now, but maybe that's what's needed to snap you out of this "it's still 2011, all we need is X" mentality.

    Edit: really, we're blanking out "T r u m p a n z e e s"?
    People like you killed the movement to whatever extent it is dead.
    Rand is still fighting for liberty.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    People like you killed the movement to whatever extent it is dead.
    Rand is still fighting for liberty.
    Oh, just what we need--people who are admittedly not libertarian and only came here during the Great Trump Hijacking to spam us pointing fingers and apportioning blame.

    You neither saw enough of nor invested enough in the movement to be credible in the role of judge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Oh, just what we need--people who are admittedly not libertarian and only came here during the Great Trump Hijacking to spam us pointing fingers and apportioning blame.

    You neither saw enough of nor invested enough in the movement to be credible in the role of judge.
    I was a Ron Paul fan before you ever heard of him and it is the unreasonable purists like fishy and you who have damaged the movement, we are not the majority or even close to it and it will be a very long time before we are if we ever are, we must work with others who share some of our goals even if that includes things like Rand's endorsement of Romney.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I was a Ron Paul fan before you ever heard of him...
    You have no idea when I heard of him, which means you're talking out of your ass again. Not that it's any of your business, but long before I voted for him in two primaries, I voted for him in a general election. Do you have enough fingers and toes to do that math? Are you even half old enough to make the same claim (you don't act it)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    ...and it is the unreasonable purists like fishy and you who have damaged the movement, we are not the majority or even close to it and it will be a very long time before we are if we ever are, we must work with others who share some of our goals even if that includes things like Rand's endorsement of Romney.
    Your research skills are poor. There is more than enough evidence around this forum to prove that fisharmor and I are not of the same ideological stripe, don't see eye to eye on the damaging effects if endorsements, and who is worth working with.

    It's only your collectivist-adversarial mindset that lumps us together; we really don't have all that much in common except a level of diplomacy and comity you seem unable to achieve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

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