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Thread: Is Secession a Good Idea?

  1. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Stallheim View Post
    No, certain moral judgments can be made for all time; slavery is always bad, denying the very fundamental of ownership of one's own self, and hence self determination. No justification of conditions is acceptable here, since the fundamental is unchanged. Child labor sounds bad, conditions sound worse? but is it voluntarily chosen? Then it is not worse than slavery, if the children are held against their will or forced to work, then it IS slavery anyway. The modern income tax and the military draft are also forms of partial slavery too. I object to them all fundamentally to the degree of total enslavement that they represent. Perhaps one can make a case that certain slaves were allowed to do certain things, earn money, have some free time; well in this case they were not a total slave then, just mostly enslaved. If you must pay 50% of your income to the government under threat of imprisonment then as far as the labor that you expend to earn that taxed income you are 50% enslaved, no matter how nice the IRS agent you deal with is, or how much time and leniency they give you to cough it all up.

    My quibble might be unjustified if you are simply saying that there were children and white slaves in the North as well. But slavery can be looked at as theoretically bad for all time, in my opinion. See Rothbard, especially Ethics of Liberty and Hoppe DTGTF
    Nothing in my post in any way justified slavery. I only said you can't look at in isolation.

    At the time, we were not that far removed from burning and drowning witches. Following a slave riot in New York in 1741, slaves were burned at the stake. This was not a 21st century society.

    My post was just to offer context to the human condition in Colonial and Antebellum America.

    We are talking about secession and all mostly agree that yes, the ability to secede is essential to a free people. The problem is, in America the discussion always goes back to our own example of secession. In that slavery always comes up. It is a red herring that discredits the notion of secession and justifies the essential liberties that were given up in a war that popular history has justified largely by invoking the slavery issue. While the US applauds secession globally, our own ability to secede has been taken us; from supposedly the most free people on Earth.

    Providing context and looking at the whole cloth of that era is critical in changing the collective consciousness. Otherwise, we will continue to use the South and slavery as the scapegoat for turning the Constitution on its head.
    "The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form"..... Jefferson Davis

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle".
    .....Edmund Burke

    "A corrupt electoral process can only lead to corrupt Government."
    ......jay_dub



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  3. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by jay_dub View Post
    Nothing in my post in any way justified slavery. I only said you can't look at in isolation.

    At the time, we were not that far removed from burning and drowning witches. Following a slave riot in New York in 1741, slaves were burned at the stake. This was not a 21st century society.

    My post was just to offer context to the human condition in Colonial and Antebellum America.

    We are talking about secession and all mostly agree that yes, the ability to secede is essential to a free people. The problem is, in America the discussion always goes back to our own example of secession. In that slavery always comes up. It is a red herring that discredits the notion of secession and justifies the essential liberties that were given up in a war that popular history has justified largely by invoking the slavery issue. While the US applauds secession globally, our own ability to secede has been taken us; from supposedly the most free people on Earth.

    Providing context and looking at the whole cloth of that era is critical in changing the collective consciousness. Otherwise, we will continue to use the South and slavery as the scapegoat for turning the Constitution on its head.
    I completely agree with this. Thank you for the clarification. I have really enjoyed the depth of historical knowledge and the interesting quotes from a wide range of sources that you keep bringing to this discussion. I am learning a lot.



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  5. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Stallheim View Post
    Also I see absolutely no moral requirement to support any foreign governmental system of coercion, no matter who likes and supports it. I have no horse in that race.
    That may be, but I would hope you would at least have a moral objection to someone interfering with their governmental system.
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  6. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    That may be, but I would hope you would at least have a moral objection to someone interfering with their governmental system.
    Certainly not. I have no objection to an individual interfering with a foreign governmental system(I would oppose state interference though). There is nothing sacred about a governmental system per se, if it is a system of extreme coersion and repression it is the great enemy of civilization. Thankfully in our scenario it is not my governmental system so I have no difficult soul searching to do. In this scenario your acceptance or even embracing of this system doesn't simply harm you, your alliance and submission is instrumental in enslaving your fellow countrymen. Of the two of you, the "liberating foreign adventurer" and you, the opressed submissive, I have the most sympathy for the liberating foreigner. He cares more for your neighbors then you do. But if he gets caught and punished because all of you don't want help, then it ends there. He knew the risks and simply over estimated your hunger for freedom. Morally I side with him since you are complicit in oppressing your fellow countrymen.

    Now I know this is a devil's advocate thought experiment, so don't worry that I am suspecting you personally of any similar motivations: after all you are a porc and have passed through this intelectual liberty fire already I am sure.

  7. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Stallheim View Post
    I completely agree with this. Thank you for the clarification. I have really enjoyed the depth of historical knowledge and the interesting quotes from a wide range of sources that you keep bringing to this discussion. I am learning a lot.
    I'm unapologetic in my defense of the Confederate cause. My efforts are to delink that cause from slavery, which tarnishes it and, by extension, tarnishes the whole concept of secession.

    Slavery, as reprehensible as it is, was legal at the time. For a state to be engaging in a legal activity is no excuse for our POTUS to suspend habeas corpus and lock up literally thousands of Northern newspaper editors, police chiefs, mayors, judges and other assorted malcontents in an effort to mute opposition to a war that Ron Paul has correctly called a war to consolidate power in the Central Government. It is no justification for the deaths of over 600,000 Americans nor of dividing the South up into military departments following the war until absolute obedience was achieved.

    A glaring example of this is the arrest of Francis Key Howard, grandson of Francis Scott Key.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The grandson of Francis Scott Key, Francis Key Howard, the editor of the Baltimore Exchange, was arrested as well as others who wrote against Lincoln. While he was imprisoned at Fort McHenry, he wrote the following words. The date was September 13, 1861...... 47 years to the day!

    "When I looked out in the morning, I could not help being struck by an odd and not pleasant coincidence. On that day, forty-seven years before, my grandfather, Mr. F. S. Key, the prisoner on a British ship, had witnessed the bombardment of Ft. McHenry. When on the following morning the hospital fleet drew off, defeated, he wrote the song so long popular throughout the country, the Star Spangled Banner. As I stood upon the very scene of that conflict, I could not but contrast my position with his, forty-seven years before. The flag which he had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving at the same place over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed."

    When he was finally released on November 27, 1862 he wrote:

    "We came out of prison just as we had gone in, holding the same just scorn and detestation [for] the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution that ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort."

    From......"Fourteen Months In the American Bastiles" by Francis Key Howard

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Notice how, when other countries have gained their freedom through secession, we applaud the effort but don't use the word 'secession'. That shows just how taboo the concept has become in America. The breakup of the Soviet Union was brought about through secession, a right explicit in its Constitution. We instead subscribe to an indivisible, more perfect union at any cost. After all, we are the land of the free and the home of the brave. WTF??

    On the issue of slavery in America, the best resource I've found on the web is this. You'll find it well sourced and offers a view ranging beyond slavery as a Southern only institution.

    http://www.slavenorth.com/
    "The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form"..... Jefferson Davis

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle".
    .....Edmund Burke

    "A corrupt electoral process can only lead to corrupt Government."
    ......jay_dub

  8. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Stallheim View Post
    Certainly not. I have no objection to an individual interfering with a foreign governmental system(I would oppose state interference though). There is nothing sacred about a governmental system per se, if it is a system of extreme coersion and repression it is the great enemy of civilization. Thankfully in our scenario it is not my governmental system so I have no difficult soul searching to do. In this scenario your acceptance or even embracing of this system doesn't simply harm you, your alliance and submission is instrumental in enslaving your fellow countrymen. Of the two of you, the "liberating foreign adventurer" and you, the opressed submissive, I have the most sympathy for the liberating foreigner. He cares more for your neighbors then you do. But if he gets caught and punished because all of you don't want help, then it ends there. He knew the risks and simply over estimated your hunger for freedom. Morally I side with him since you are complicit in oppressing your fellow countrymen.
    Would you have any objections to someone intervening in a couple's violent BDSM session?

    If so, how is a voluntary Communist police-state society really much different from that?
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  9. #277
    I support all secession anywhere and for any reason. It is worth advocating for no mater what the mixed or even corrupt motivations of its specific advocates since each successful one makes the world just a little safer and easier for liberty to be established everywhere. Keep up the good work reading, researching and communicating. Lysander Spooner, as a Northern Abolitionist cuts the Gordian Knot for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by jay_dub View Post
    I'm unapologetic in my defense of the Confederate cause. My efforts are to delink that cause from slavery, which tarnishes it and, by extension, tarnishes the whole concept of secession.

    Slavery, as reprehensible as it is, was legal at the time. For a state to be engaging in a legal activity is no excuse for our POTUS to suspend habeas corpus and lock up literally thousands of Northern newspaper editors, police chiefs, mayors, judges and other assorted malcontents in an effort to mute opposition to a war that Ron Paul has correctly called a war to consolidate power in the Central Government. It is no justification for the deaths of over 600,000 Americans nor of dividing the South up into military departments following the war until absolute obedience was achieved.

    A glaring example of this is the arrest of Francis Key Howard, grandson of Francis Scott Key.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The grandson of Francis Scott Key, Francis Key Howard, the editor of the Baltimore Exchange, was arrested as well as others who wrote against Lincoln. While he was imprisoned at Fort McHenry, he wrote the following words. The date was September 13, 1861...... 47 years to the day!

    "When I looked out in the morning, I could not help being struck by an odd and not pleasant coincidence. On that day, forty-seven years before, my grandfather, Mr. F. S. Key, the prisoner on a British ship, had witnessed the bombardment of Ft. McHenry. When on the following morning the hospital fleet drew off, defeated, he wrote the song so long popular throughout the country, the Star Spangled Banner. As I stood upon the very scene of that conflict, I could not but contrast my position with his, forty-seven years before. The flag which he had then so proudly hailed, I saw waving at the same place over the victims of as vulgar and brutal a despotism as modern times have witnessed."

    When he was finally released on November 27, 1862 he wrote:

    "We came out of prison just as we had gone in, holding the same just scorn and detestation [for] the despotism under which the country was prostrate, and with a stronger resolution that ever to oppose it by every means to which, as American freemen, we had the right to resort."

    From......"Fourteen Months In the American Bastiles" by Francis Key Howard

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Notice how, when other countries have gained their freedom through secession, we applaud the effort but don't use the word 'secession'. That shows just how taboo the concept has become in America. The breakup of the Soviet Union was brought about through secession, a right explicit in its Constitution. We instead subscribe to an indivisible, more perfect union at any cost. After all, we are the land of the free and the home of the brave. WTF??

    On the issue of slavery in America, the best resource I've found on the web is this. You'll find it well sourced and offers a view ranging beyond slavery as a Southern only institution.

    http://www.slavenorth.com/

  10. #278
    Secession is the ultimate defense against tyranny.

    “When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”

    Though the above Jefferson quote is often associated with the 2nd Amendment, it must apply equally to secession as well. In the modern day, we have no chance at forcibly defeating a corrupt government through arms. What is left to us is secession as a last resort.
    "The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form"..... Jefferson Davis

    "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle".
    .....Edmund Burke

    "A corrupt electoral process can only lead to corrupt Government."
    ......jay_dub

  11. #279
    There is a case to be made that the vast majority of laws should be local, to coincide with the standards of the community. On the other hand, it also makes sense for there to be international standards for the convenience of trade and travel. Of course this is the essential basis of the US Constitution, it's just too bad that people don't follow it, especially our "leaders".
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  12. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    Would you have any objections to someone intervening in a couple's violent BDSM session?

    If so, how is a voluntary Communist police-state society really much different from that?
    I'm jumping in late and haven't followed the thread.

    But if it's a violent Communist police-state, doesn't that mean it's not voluntary?



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  14. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by jay_dub View Post
    Secession is the ultimate defense against tyranny.

    “When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”

    Though the above Jefferson quote is often associated with the 2nd Amendment, it must apply equally to secession as well. In the modern day, we have no chance at forcibly defeating a corrupt government through arms. What is left to us is secession as a last resort.
    And actually defeating a government by force of arms has always been less effective ultimately for liberty, paving the way for other strong men and tyrants. I tyrannical government works hard to isolate and marginalize ideological threats to its benevolent dictatorial perception among the majority of the populous. Secession requires them to choose between being the bad guy (invading rather than their preferred method of suppression) or being the weak guy (failing to bring the straying sheep back into the fold). The State which faces an imminent secession is weakened in both cases, receiving a powerful blow to widely precised legitimacy either way in the end.

  15. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Where did I make that statement in bold?
    I inferred it, perhaps in error, based on what I perceived you to have been saying elsewhere. If that was incorrect, mea culpa.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

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  16. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    There is a case to be made that the vast majority of laws should be local, to coincide with the standards of the community. On the other hand, it also makes sense for there to be international standards for the convenience of trade and travel. Of course this is the essential basis of the US Constitution, it's just too bad that people don't follow it, especially our "leaders".
    Functional international standards which have helped not hurt trade have been developed throughout history by merchants and traders and the associations they have formed. Governments have adopted some of these conventions as treaties, usurping what they want, but basically allowing an effective system to remain in place since it enriches them at no substantial cost through duties and taxes. When actual international government bodies have been formed to aggressively interfere and 'manage' trade all but the most connected special interests and the politicians who serve/rule them benefit at the expense of everyone less powerful and connected. The international law which does the least damage has always been that of treaty or private maintenance.

  17. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    Would you have any objections to someone intervening in a couple's violent BDSM session?

    If so, how is a voluntary Communist police-state society really much different from that?
    Do you see any difference?! ;o) If not I sincerely hope you are not in a position of authority or enforcement!

  18. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Stallheim View Post
    Functional international standards which have helped not hurt trade have been developed throughout history by merchants and traders and the associations they have formed. Governments have adopted some of these conventions as treaties, usurping what they want, but basically allowing an effective system to remain in place since it enriches them at no substantial cost through duties and taxes. When actual international government bodies have been formed to aggressively interfere and 'manage' trade all but the most connected special interests and the politicians who serve/rule them benefit at the expense of everyone less powerful and connected. The international law which does the least damage has always been that of treaty or private maintenance.
    Yep.

    The minimalist approach is best. And the definition of "regulate" has been distorted to the point that it is hardly the same word any more.

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

    To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  19. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I inferred it, perhaps in error, based on what I perceived you to have been saying elsewhere. If that was incorrect, mea culpa.
    Conscription is not always a human rights violation.

    Sometimes, history has proved, that women and children need to be defended against an enemy attack.

    Slavery is always a human rights violation.

  20. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Conscription is not always a human rights violation.

    Sometimes, history has proved, that women and children need to be defended against an enemy attack.

    Slavery is always a human rights violation.
    I can't accept this without a clear definition of what you mean by human rights violation. Especially since you claim that slavery is always a human rights violation but then claim that conscription is not. Without some sort of careful clarification that is beyond me, I must conclude that you don't consider conscription to be slavery. How is conscription NOT slavery? I am baffled. If you can come up with a justification for conscription than you are also justifying a specific case of slavery, and according to you, indicating a human rights violation that you find acceptable. I suspect that this would be a clearer discussion without loaded terms like "human rights violation" but if you feel it helps make your point clearly, then I am fine with it.
    Last edited by Stallheim; 10-23-2012 at 01:14 PM.

  21. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Stallheim View Post
    I can't accept this without a clear definition of what you mean by human rights violation. Especially since you claim that slavery is always a human rights violation but then claim that conscription is not. Without some sort of careful clarification that is beyond me, I must conclude that you don't consider conscription to be slavery. How is conscription NOT slavery? I am baffled. If you can come up with a justification for conscription than you are also justifying a specific case of slavery, and according to you, indicating a human rights violation that you find acceptable. I suspect that this would be a clearer discussion without loaded terms like "human rights violation" but if you feel it helps make your point clearly, then I am fine with it.
    Women and children are the future generations. It is up to men to protect them. Defense is necessary conscription. You may want to categorize it as slavery. I don't. It is the duty of men to protect women and children.



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  23. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Stallheim View Post
    Do you see any difference?! ;o) If not I sincerely hope you are not in a position of authority or enforcement!
    No please enlighten me
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  24. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Conscription is not always a human rights violation.

    Sometimes, history has proved, that women and children need to be defended against an enemy attack.

    Slavery is always a human rights violation.
    What is slavery?

  25. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    What is slavery?
    Definition of SLAVERY

    1
    : drudgery, toil
    2
    : submission to a dominating influence
    3
    a : the state of a person who is a chattel of another
    b : the practice of slaveholding

  26. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Women and children are the future generations. It is up to men to protect them. Defense is necessary conscription. You may want to categorize it as slavery. I don't. It is the duty of men to protect women and children.
    If this is true, then they will do it on their own volition. No conscription necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  27. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Definition of SLAVERY

    1
    : drudgery, toil
    2
    : submission to a dominating influence
    3
    a : the state of a person who is a chattel of another
    b : the practice of slaveholding
    Doesn't that definition apply to conscription?

  28. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    No please enlighten me
    Ok, the two strange fetishists, according to the scenario have freely chosen to engage in an activity that doesn't harm anyone else.

    The Communist Police State is voluntary according to you, one of it's citizens. Lets say that you, blood dripping down your face, assure the "liberating adventurer" that you deserve what you got, and actually welcome this treatment and wouldn't change a thing if you could; and you can leave any time you wish. The Stasi agent who has helped you stand, and the three others standing around toking on cigarettes (they are allowed to of course due to the stress of the special job they perform) all agree that every citizen really believes that they are completely free and will tell you no differently if you ask. Do you consider that it is even possible that there is no coercion in this system? (just because you can leave doesn't mean that a serious cost has not been imposed: remember that some people who might want to leave have connections, friends, children etc. Also they have property that they would lose if they left. The only way that your scenario could be even theoretically possible: a state without coercion that looks like you have described it, would be if all members of society recognize no legitimacy to property ownership even including determination of how another treats one's own body.) I believe this is absurd, but perhaps you do not?

    You cannot make a scenario involving other self-willed human beings who are being treated the way you describe that they are being treated, and make a convincing argument that they really prefer the situation to freedom (even claiming they are free) even if they say so, provided that the police state you describe still holds some form of leverage over them. Remove the leverage and the threats and they still agree that they embrace their situation and you have almost made your case, but in the absence of the leverage and the threats you no longer have the police state you describe so it is a self contradictory claim that you are making.

  29. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Doesn't that definition apply to conscription?
    I guess it does, but still I do not consider defending women and children against aggressors as slavery. I consider it the duty of men.

  30. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Stallheim View Post
    Ok, the two strange fetishists, according to the scenario have freely chosen to engage in an activity that doesn't harm anyone else.

    The Communist Police State is voluntary according to you, one of it's citizens. Lets say that you, blood dripping down your face, assure the "liberating adventurer" that you deserve what you got, and actually welcome this treatment and wouldn't change a thing if you could; and you can leave any time you wish. The Stasi agent who has helped you stand, and the three others standing around toking on cigarettes (they are allowed to of course due to the stress of the special job they perform) all agree that every citizen really believes that they are completely free and will tell you no differently if you ask. Do you consider that it is even possible that there is no coercion in this system?
    If my right of secession is protected, then no, there isn't any coercion I'm not voluntarily subjecting myself to.

    (just because you can leave doesn't mean that a serious cost has not been imposed: remember that some people who might want to leave have connections, friends, children etc. Also they have property that they would lose if they left. The only way that your scenario could be even theoretically possible: a state without coercion that looks like you have described it, would be if all members of society recognize no legitimacy to property ownership even including determination of how another treats one's own body.) I believe this is absurd, but perhaps you do not?
    I support all volunteer based efforts to uphold the right of secession. Internal to this political system, people do not have property. Externally, volunteering individuals may see things differently. If a man in this Communist state lived on a farm, and he and his family built that farm with their own work, and developed the land with their own work, I would generally consider that to be his land. If he chose to secede from that Communist state, and chose to take his land with him, I would support him in that.

    If a man had no property he called his own, his right of secession would still be upheld. He could leave. If his family wanted to stay, well.. that's their choice.

    You cannot make a scenario involving other self-willed human beings who are being treated the way you describe that they are being treated, and make a convincing argument that they really prefer the situation to freedom (even claiming they are free) even if they say so, provided that the police state you describe still holds some form of leverage over them. Remove the leverage and the threats and they still agree that they embrace their situation and you have almost made your case, but in the absence of the leverage and the threats you no longer have the police state you describe so it is a self contradictory claim that you are making.
    If a person is free to secede, free to leave and take his property with him, and is there by choice... it doesn't matter whether or not you approve of how he chooses to live his life, he is in fact free. If it's simply ignorance that prevents him to leave... educate him. But using force to "free him" from his own ignorance I strongly disapprove of. (not that you would. but it sounds like you would not object to that)
    Last edited by TheTexan; 10-23-2012 at 04:14 PM.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  32. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Conscription is not always a human rights violation.
    By what standard does this hold true? The conscription (by definition an act of initiated force against ostensibly peaceable people) of free men against their wills is most certainly a violation of their rights. You are attempting to employ the just-cause fallacy. I am surprised at this.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

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    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  33. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    I guess it does, but still I do not consider defending women and children against aggressors as slavery. I consider it the duty of men.
    Fair enough... for you. Some will not agree. By the very same token some may believe your duty is to defend a foreign nation against aggression regardless of what YOU think. See the problem? Who gets to decide that a cause is justly fought by all, like it or not? Why are they authorized to make this determination? By what authority are they chosen to make it? The list of questions of this sort is literally endless because it is provably the case that no matter what answer one gives to any of the questions it will not be sufficient to prevent the rise of a consequent and perfectly valid next question.

    Force is almost always bull$#@!.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  34. #299
    Its not about a good or bad idea. It's about freedom of association.
    "Corruptisima republica plurimae leges."

    ---- Tacitus

    I love von Mises and Emma Watson

  35. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Fair enough... for you. Some will not agree. By the very same token some may believe your duty is to defend a foreign nation against aggression regardless of what YOU think. See the problem? Who gets to decide that a cause is justly fought by all, like it or not? Why are they authorized to make this determination? By what authority are they chosen to make it? The list of questions of this sort is literally endless because it is provably the case that no matter what answer one gives to any of the questions it will not be sufficient to prevent the rise of a consequent and perfectly valid next question.

    Force is almost always bull$#@!.
    Defense is necessary against aggressors. Right now the aggressors claim to have authority to make kill lists, imprison without due process, police the travel, and patrol the skies with predator drones. John Locke called this an illegitimate government. The illegitimate government must cease and desist their immoral activities ASAP. If the people do not figure out how to force them to stop their shenanigans peacefully, then some brave warriors may have to resort to force to get them to stop. Men need to stand up for their rights and the rights of others. Some of us are not going to give up until we win our freedom.

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