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Thread: If what's happening in Portland happened in 2013

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Neocon View Post
    Again, spare the hysteria and try thinking clearly for a second. They don't have to "care what we think" in order to care about what makes throwing them in unmarked vans without warrants possible.
    What hysteria? I have said all my life and I still do, "Secret police shouldn't pull people off the street."

    A lot of good that has done over the years.

    Now there is a group that marches under Marxism (an ideology more genocidal than any other) and is calling for a revolution, breaking stuff, and killing people who disagree with them. Well, it is like watching the Bloods and the Crips go at it.
    ...



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Neocon View Post
    People are not monolithic entities. Not even protestors are.

    They already do care about the liberty issue about not being thrown into shady dark vans without warrants.

    So on that issue they are with us, that's enough. Nobody is saying to endorse them. What we are saying is to support their right to protest.

    And obviously use this as a vehicle for spreading a pro-liberty message. "This (concrete example) is what happens when you give feds too much power. This was enabled by Obama and Bush administrations."

    What you do, and Ron Paul always talked about doing, was building coalitions on individual issues. If we can find enough people who think that we should repeal the NDAA provision, and the Patriot Act, then that's a win. Forget about what they think about other issues. We are not endorsing whatever they are talking about on other issues.

    It doesn't matter what these protests are about as long as we can create issue campaigns. This is a good time to hold some Pelosi feet to the fire but instead apparently the cool thing to do is shriek about "Marxists" who currently probably have less power than even libertarians.

    So was "Ron Paul Forums" at some point, at least when it was a distant future threat. Then when it happened and orange man was in power, apparently it became a good thing.

    Because they are dumb and naive? Believe it or not, when people are given information on what enabled something, usually they want that thing taken away. In this case it's the NDAA/Patriot Act. Yes, get them to put some Pelosi feet to the fire.

    There is something called warrants, and due process, and whatnot. Things people seemed to care about here back until the lack of these things actually started being abused in a severe, blatant way.

    At the very least, a very clear "I told you so" moment but instead I see taking the side of the abuser?

    Very true!

    The people defending this statism should be called out. Do you not agree? Who cares if people on the other side of the ideological aisle agree with us on something? Actually I do because it's more power to us.

    I'm not sure that intentional division is quite the answer here but yes bringing the NDAA issue to light is the best thing we can be doing in this time.

    Or how about you know, protesting the Patriot Act, protesting the NDAA, and protesting MAGA's abuse of these autocratic tools, and then try to get this damn statism repealed?

    All 3 should be seen as individually intolerable and together contributing to something which can and will be repeated, only next time the victims may be someone you can't shriek "Marxist" at.

    Again, spare the hysteria and try thinking clearly for a second. They don't have to "care what we think" in order to care about what makes throwing them in unmarked vans without warrants possible.
    Radical Leftists are the enemy of Liberty & they should be physically removed from society!

  4. #63
    Also, these are not hippies walking the streets for socialized medicine.

    I work in a downtown area that has been boarded up for the last month with broken windows and graffiti. I am a former Marine and a former firefighter. My gut instinct is to do something about this vandalism. My instinct is to do exactly what the cops should be doing.

    There is legit protest. These vandals know exactly what they are triggering. If they were sign carrying chanters, I am cool with them. However, those shutting down cities, taking food off of my kid's table, I have absolutely no pity for them. Those Marxist want a whole hell of a lot worse for us than what they are receiving.
    ...

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Neocon View Post
    What you do, and Ron Paul always talked about doing, was building coalitions on individual issues. If we can find enough people who think that we should repeal the NDAA provision, and the Patriot Act, then that's a win. Forget about what they think about other issues. We are not endorsing whatever they are talking about on other issues.
    Ron Paul was/is wrong on this subject, because he started with a false premise: "freedom is popular". Just because the Marxist left may want repeal of the NDAA and PATRIOT Act, does not mean I would ally with them in any way to achieve that goal, as I understand whatever they plan on doing next will be worse.

    It doesn't matter what these protests are about as long as we can create issue campaigns. This is a good time to hold some Pelosi feet to the fire but instead apparently the cool thing to do is shriek about "Marxists" who currently probably have less power than even libertarians.
    When did Bank of America give Mises Institute a billion dollars?
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11



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  7. #65
    And actually, I find this more worrying:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...l-Lives-Matter

    Thought Police: Miss Swimsuit UK stripped of title for saying All Lives Matter
    If we can not think and speak our minds for fear of the Marxist mob, all our other freedoms cease.
    ...

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Neocon View Post
    People are not monolithic entities. Not even protestors are.

    They already do care about the liberty issue about not being thrown into shady dark vans without warrants.
    ...
    You keep mentioning unmarked vehicles and warrants as the issue. Those are not issues. Warrants are not needed to arrest vandals engaged in a crime. Whether the vehicle is marked or not is meaningless.

    The understanding is that these are Federal law enforcement officers arresting people. Is that disputed? Are they going through the usual due process after arrest? Booking, charges, bail, court dates?

    No one is being disappeared are they? That would be a huge problem. We would need evidence of that.

    The main Constitutional issue is that this is not the jurisdiction of a Federal Police, it is a state/local issue. Federal Police in cities is very bad. That is the major issue.

    Some may say that they are defending a Federal building. Still not their job unless they stay in the building or are right on the front steps. And as Thomas Massie said, why are there Federal Buildings there anyway?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Huh?

    Are you denying that BLM and AntiFa are Marxist revolutionary groups?
    Nope.

    I'm also not under some sort of delusion that everyone left on me on the political scale is either BLM or AntiFa. That's just some red team / blue team bull$#@!. There are plenty of people who are neither marxists nor in approval of Trump's use of federal law enforcement to police local matters.


    No one said "go to the protests and convince marxist arsonists to become libertarian."
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Neocon View Post
    ...was building coalitions on individual issues....Forget about what they think about other issues. We are not endorsing whatever they are talking about on other issues.

    The paid marxist trolls are not here to build your coalition. They are here to destroy this forum and you. That is their issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    What hysteria? I have said all my life and I still do, "Secret police shouldn't pull people off the street."

    A lot of good that has done over the years.

    Now there is a group that marches under Marxism (an ideology more genocidal than any other) and is calling for a revolution, breaking stuff, and killing people who disagree with them. Well, it is like watching the Bloods and the Crips go at it.
    this. Its an internal dispute within and between the "blue" team.

    Whatever level of "outrage" there are over this theater would be orders of magnitude greater if the citizens of Portland were to secure their livelihoods and property themselves.

    I'm fairly certain that any one of those people being "disappeared" would be in the throws of ecstasy if this same power were exercised over, say, the Bundys. I don't think I'll let the Alinsky faction "hold me to my rulebook."
    Last edited by bv3; 07-20-2020 at 12:27 PM.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    That's just some red team / blue team bull$#@!.

    You are extreme blue team. Do you think you're fooling anyone here?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Neocon View Post
    Or how about you know, protesting the Patriot Act, protesting the NDAA, and protesting MAGA's abuse of these autocratic tools, and then try to get this damn statism repealed?
    You’re fantasizing here. The people doing the rioting have never had the presence of mind to care about the Patriot Act, NDAA or the state and they hate the Constitution. They aren’t interested in repealing anything - only want to create more authoritarianism.

    Sure, go ahead and give them facts, maybe a tiny fraction of a % will listen and learn something. But you’ll need to acknowledge that you’re dealing primarily with a selfish mob here. These are people who are simply too immature and too self-centered to form coalitions. They're too shallow and have rejected the concept every time they could’ve been coalescing with us.

    They called us “racists” when Ron Paul was the only one looking to end the drug war and promising to release every federal prisoner convicted of a non-violent drug crime. We’re “racist” when Rand Paul is one of the few speaking out against the Patriot Act, the AUMF, NDAA, the drug war…They refuse even to support getting our troops out of Afghanistan! So, now that libertarians reject their request to riot on their behalf - what a surprise - it’s because we’re “racist”!

    Libertarians don’t believe in rioting - period. Are you familiar with the NAP? We believe in property rights and self-defense! How could we form a coalition with people who reject our most basic principles? The notion that we should swell their ranks so their rioting can be expanded is ludicrous. No one here is defending the state.

    All 3 should be seen as individually intolerable and together contributing to something which can and will be repeated, only next time the victims may be someone you can't shriek "Marxist" at.
    You come off as disingenuous when you keep suggesting that none of this was a "concrete" problem until Trump took office. None of these protestors/rioters had a problem with it when Obama’s administration labeled us domestic terrorists just because we supported Ron Paul - they agreed with that! We could never depend on them to have our backs for anything and we don't. It’s sickening that they would turn to us expecting support now, even while insulting us and calling us racists! You all made this bed. No intention of joining you in it.

  14. #72
    Protestors Protest, Looters Loot, Rioters Riot, Vandals Vandalize. We need to also recognize these groups of people have NOTHING to do with each other.

    There are a good number of PEACEFUL protestors in BLM that flat out left when the Looters and Rioters showed up. The confusion is intentional so other groups opposed to the Looting and Rioting attack the protestors. There is some overlap, but it is only a small percentage of people both protesting and rioting.

    "You can have no more freedom than you are willing to give to another person."

    I do understand that people in general are frustrated with some treatment by the Police. And that is a very generalized statement. The problem isnt the police, but the laws that they are made to enforce. Real solutions is to be able to talk with the peaceful protestors, and shame the Leftists and Looters / Rioters. We inspire people to get along with us by behaving in a way that is worthy of being followed. If they are peaceful, that should inspire us to be as peaceful as we can be when we discuss the real problems.

    Our mutual REAL PROBLEMS include, but are not limited to, Victimless Crimes, Skin Color Profiling, Plea Deals, dishonest laws, and dishonest representation. That list can go on forever. Real solutions will include our ability to get along with each other instead of remaining divided, then we no longer have any need what so ever for Govts to regulate our individual behavior.

    We need LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL, not ONLY Black Lives Matter members.

    Democracy - Mob Rule, Minorities have NO RIGHTS
    Republic - The Law applies to EVERYONE equally
    Socialsm - No Private Property, No Self Ownership, No Sovereign Citizens and NO RIGHTS

    We MUST make sure that the Squeaky Wheel does NOT get the grease so that the Demoncrats in office that are pushing so hard to recognize to ONLY those who have fallen for the LIES of PURE SOCIALSM.
    Last edited by DamianTV; 07-20-2020 at 01:28 PM.
    1776 > 1984

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    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  16. #73

    https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/1285270380127629315
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  17. #74
    Should I oppose this measure because it's coming from the "wrong team"?

    A House Bill Would Require Feds to Identify Themselves
    Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez will introduce the legislation, following controversial arrests in Portland.
    https://www.thenation.com/article/society/aoc-bill-federal-identification/
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Should I oppose this measure because it's coming from the "wrong team"?
    https://www.thenation.com/article/society/aoc-bill-federal-identification/
    You should check it very carefully for poison pills.

    I'll wait to see if Rand or Massie support it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #76
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    There would probably be many threads about it.
    No doubt, but they would've been along the lines of "Obama Sends Army To Arrest Political Enemies: Islamo-Marxist Coup IMMINENT!"

    There's lots of this kind of hypocrisy going around.

    For instance, the GOP spent two terms (rightly) criticizing Obama's $1 trillion vote buying scheme stimulus.

    Now, they have not one word of criticism for Trump's much larger vote buying scheme stimulus.

    The overarching point, I suppose, is that red-blue tribal identity means much more than principle for most people.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    No doubt, but they would've been along the lines of "Obama Sends Army To Arrest Political Enemies: Islamo-Marxist Coup IMMINENT!"

    There's lots of this kind of hypocrisy going around.

    For instance, the GOP spent two terms (rightly) criticizing Obama's $1 trillion vote buying scheme stimulus.

    Now, they have not one word of criticism for Trump's much larger vote buying scheme stimulus.

    The overarching point, I suppose, is that red-blue tribal identity means much more than principle for most people.
    The Trump stimulus is a tax credit. Why are you against tax cuts?

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The Trump stimulus is a tax credit. Why are you against tax cuts?
    The CARES Act was ~$2 trillion of cash gifts and subsidized loans (many of which will become gifts).

    Here's a nice visual representation of where the money went.



    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the...stimulus-bill/

    As for "tax cuts," the one's Trump's proposing (payroll), there's no such thing without spending cuts.

    If he cuts the payroll tax, all that does is increase the inflation tax, since the lost revenue will be covered by Fed money printing.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post

    https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/1285270380127629315
    Reminds me of the Ron Paul skit SNL did.


    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The CARES Act was ~$2 trillion of cash gifts and subsidized loans (many of which will become gifts).

    Here's a nice visual representation of where the money went.



    https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the...stimulus-bill/

    As for "tax cuts," the one's Trump's proposing (payroll), there's no such thing without spending cuts.

    If he cuts the payroll tax, all that does is increase the inflation tax, since the lost revenue will be covered by Fed money printing.
    The Trump checks were a tax credit. You are now conflating Obamas bail outs with the tax credit people who pay taxes received. It was a tax refund. Dont move the goalposts.

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The Trump checks were a tax credit. You are now conflating Obamas bail outs with the tax credit people who pay taxes received. It was a tax refund. Dont move the goalposts.
    Okay, nevermind.

    Go Trump!

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The Trump stimulus is a tax credit. Why are you against tax cuts?
    It's not a tax credit if people who didn't pay taxes can still get a check from the government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Reminds me of the Ron Paul skit SNL did.

    I was surprised that Rand Paul was standing with the rioters who had being rioting for 50 days. So Rand Paul doesn't want federal buildings to be protected?

  29. #85
    Rand still mowing his own lawn ?
    Last edited by Dark_Horse_Rider; 07-21-2020 at 01:38 PM.

  30. #86
    I have no sympathy for these Leftists/Communists/Marxists. Conservatives and Libertarians warned these people about the police state for years and they never took it seriously. The only reason they seem to care now, is because this is happening to people of their political ideology, where as if this was happening to Conservatives and Libertarians, they'd be all for it. Then the Left tries to accuse us of being supporters of the police state, when we really aren't taking sides to either opposition. It's better to sit back and watch as these ginnygoats destroy each other.
    Last edited by Anti Globalist; 07-21-2020 at 01:56 PM.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    I have no sympathy for these Leftists/Communists/Marxists. Conservatives and Libertarians warned these people about the police state for years and they never took it seriously. The only reason they seem to care now, is because this is happening to people of their political ideology, where as if this was happening to Conservatives and Libertarians, they'd be all for it. Then the Left tries to accuse us of being supporters of the police state, when we really aren't taking sides to either opposition. It's better to sit back and watch as these ginnygoats destroy each other.
    owe ya a rep
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It's not a tax credit if people who didn't pay taxes can still get a check from the government.
    ? Most of it went to people who pay tax. I know you are splitting hairs here but what a joke. It was pretty much an across the board tax refund for most people and businesses that pay tax.



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  34. #89
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    ? Most of it went to people who pay tax. I know you are splitting hairs here but what a joke. It was pretty much an across the board tax refund for most people and businesses that pay tax.
    Of course it did; most people pay tax, and therefore most people who got it are tax payers. But what about everybody else?


    Here's you saying the completely opposite thing just a couple of posts up in the thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    The Trump checks were a tax credit. You are now conflating Obamas bail outs with the tax credit people who pay taxes received. It was a tax refund. Dont move the goalposts.

    It can't be a tax refund if the person never paid taxes in the first place. The one splitting hairs is you.

    I'm sorry that it hurts your feelings that Orange Daddy gave out bailouts the same way that Black Daddy did, but pretending otherwise to make yourself feel better is just sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

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