Why so many protectionists here?

[TheCount]

When the U.S. finally transforms into a bland, polyglot World destination, that will be when it finally ceases to exist. The U.S. was unique during it's founding because it violently rejected the fraudulent contemporary world belief systems reigning at the time. Now we have people asking us to return to that same archaic thinking that our fore bearers escaped from.

Are you genuinely proposing that free trade is the prevailing, archaic system, and that protectionism is somehow new thinking?

[AuH20]

Are you genuinely proposing that free trade is the prevailing, archaic system, and that protectionism is somehow new thinking?

I don't think what we have now is free trade. It's dominated trade with massive currency imbalances.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Are you genuinely proposing that free trade is the prevailing, archaic system, and that protectionism is somehow new thinking?

I would ask if you're genuinely asking a question, but I know better. Maybe he's referring to pre-War of 1812, but I guess he can clarify.

Perhaps instead of just always laying into people the way you always do, how about you ALSO present YOUR view? What are your views on protectionism?

[Ender]

I would ask if you're genuinely asking a question, but I know better. Maybe he's referring to pre-War of 1812, but I guess he can clarify.

Perhaps instead of just always laying into people the way you always do, how about you ALSO present YOUR view? What are your views on protectionism?

@TheCount DID present his view- it is just dressed in sarcasm.

We are presently drenched in protectionism which WAS the "fraudulent contemporary world belief systems reigning at the time".

Real freedom was the FF original intent.

[TheCount]

I don't think what we have now is free trade. It's dominated trade with massive currency imbalances.

That wasn't my question.

Protectionism is the historical norm since the dawn of national governments.

Homogenous societies are also the historical norm.

What you're suggesting - that protectionism and ethnonationalism is some new manner of thinking - is the opposite of reality.

[jmdrake]

I think the argument is that H-1B's are basically a corporate subsidy since the "temporary" foreign workers are supposed to be paid the prevailing wage, but the foreign workers end up accepting wages that are much less. The firm who can get these government approved workers gets the market advantage. It goes along with the argument that you can't have open borders without any sort of welfare state.

Sure that's the argument. But so far nobody has provided any evidence to support the claim that H1B workers are accepting significantly lower salaries than their U.S. born counterparts.

[Madison320]

I think the argument is that H-1B's are basically a corporate subsidy since the "temporary" foreign workers are supposed to be paid the prevailing wage, but the foreign workers end up accepting wages that are much less. The firm who can get these government approved workers gets the market advantage. It goes along with the argument that you can't have open borders without any sort of welfare state.

My point is not so much whether you're a protectionist or not. It's whether you're consistent about it. If you are against H1Bs(services), you should also be against free trade in goods, like cars, televisions, etc.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

@TheCount DID present his view- it is just dressed in sarcasm.

No, he presented agitation dressed as inquiry. He rarely to never presents his views.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

That wasn't my question.

And that wasn't my question.

[timosman]

Sure that's the argument. But so far nobody has provided any evidence to support the claim that H1B workers are accepting significantly lower salaries than their U.S. born counterparts.

What exactly do you need the evidence for?

[jmdrake]

What exactly do you need the evidence for?

For the proposition that H1B workers in general are accepting significantly lower salaries than their U.S. born counterparts....duh! You are more intelligent than you are pretending to be.

Here's evidence in the opposite direction.

https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/29/ho...-1b-employees/

[Madison320]

Here's another question. Supposedly the argument in favor of banning foreign workers is that it drives down wages from oversupply. Does that mean you are also in favor of licensing requirements for doctors? That limits the supply and drives up the wages for doctors. Is that also good for the economy?

[Brian4Liberty]

For the proposition that H1B workers in general are accepting significantly lower salaries than their U.S. born counterparts....duh! You are more intelligent than you are pretending to be.

Here's evidence in the opposite direction.

https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/29/ho...-1b-employees/

That article very well may have cherry-picked from the raw data.

[juleswin]

For the proposition that H1B workers in general are accepting significantly lower salaries than their U.S. born counterparts....duh! You are more intelligent than you are pretending to be.

Here's evidence in the opposite direction.

https://techcrunch.com/2015/03/29/ho...-1b-employees/

Just read the article and I didn't find any evidence from reading it that the H1B employees were paying more than their native counterparts. All the article did was compare the pay of H1B employees among other tech companies that used H1B workers.

I think a better way to judge the costs is how much it costs the companies to hire the H1B workers when compared to native workers.

[jmdrake]

Just read the article and I didn't find any evidence from reading it that the H1B employees were paying more than their native counterparts. All the article did was compare the pay of H1B employees among other tech companies that used H1B workers.

Who said H1B employees were paying more than their native counterparts? That sentence makes no sense in the context. I'm assuming you meant to say "I didn't find any evidence from reading it that the H1B employees were being paid more than their native counterparts." But even then, that's not the argument I was making. I'm making the argument that the H1B salaries are comparable to the native born salaries, not that they are more than the native born salaries.

Now to make the comparison, here are the mean salaries overall for software engineers at the same companies.

https://blog.step.com/2016/04/08/an-...tech-salaries/

Note there is no real difference. That's my point.

I think a better way to judge the costs is how much it costs the companies to hire the H1B workers when compared to native workers.

Fine. Provide the data then. The burden of proof is on the protectionists. (Not saying you are one).

[jmdrake]

That article very well may have cherry-picked from the raw data.

It may have. But so far in all of these threads nobody on your side has provided any data at all.

[Ender]

No, he presented agitation dressed as inquiry. He rarely to never presents his views.

Helps to understand sarcasm, NCL. It's one of the reasons I enjoy @TheCount so much.

[timosman]

It may have. But so far in all of these threads nobody on your side has provided any data at all.

Google, Apple, Intel and Adobe Paying $324m Lawsuit Over Salary Conspiracy http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/google-appl...laries-1446002

[juleswin]

Who said H1B employees were paying more than their native counterparts? That sentence makes no sense in the context. I'm assuming you meant to say "I didn't find any evidence from reading it that the H1B employees were being paid more than their native counterparts." But even then, that's not the argument I was making. I'm making the argument that the H1B salaries are comparable to the native born salaries, not that they are more than the native born salaries.

Now to make the comparison, here are the mean salaries overall for software engineers at the same companies.

https://blog.step.com/2016/04/08/an-...tech-salaries/

Note there is no real difference. That's my point.



Fine. Provide the data then. The burden of proof is on the protectionists. (Not saying you are one).

Paid instead of paying. Butt it seams like you figured our without my welp what I was tying to say

But still the first link you posted only compared H1B salaries with each other. No mention of native workers and the second link you posted, separated the workers out into different levels. From 1 - 4 and with levels 3 and 4 median income vastly exceeding what the H1B workers were getting. The second one still doesn't prove any point cos they are not using the same units.

[jmdrake]

Google, Apple, Intel and Adobe Paying $324m Lawsuit Over Salary Conspiracy http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/google-appl...laries-1446002

Huge fail on your part. Nothing in the article about H1B. I would gladly take the salary that other people are suing Google, Apple, Intel and others over for being "too low."

[jmdrake]

Paid instead of paying. Butt it seams like you figured our without my welp what I was tying to say

But still the first link you posted only compared H1B salaries with each other. No mention of native workers and the second link you posted, separated the workers out into different levels. From 1 - 4 and with levels 3 and 4 median income vastly exceeding what the H1B workers were getting. The second one still doesn't prove any point cos they are not using the same units.

Again, the burden is on those making the claim that the H1B workers are being woefully underpaid.

[PierzStyx]

Okay. The question in the OP needs to change to "Why are so many protectionists using phony arguments to advance their agenda?" Seriously WTF?

These people have no basic understanding of universal human rights -as enunciated by Thomas Jefferson- or of what the free market actually is. They're only interested in using the state to control and dominate others, to force them to become like them, act like them, and think like them. They're Progressives in every way.

[TheCount]

Google, Apple, Intel and Adobe Paying $324m Lawsuit Over Salary Conspiracy http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/google-appl...laries-1446002

That's not about immigrants, it was basically price fixing for the price of labor.

[oyarde]

I agree. I'm starting to think the real problem isn't the illegals, it's their legal children. Illegals can't get (that much) welfare and can't vote. What if we changed the law to say you have to have a legal parent to be legal yourself. And then let the illegals stay as long as they don't commit crimes.

Actually , the way the law reads now , to me would be one parent a citizen and yeah that would be an improvement .

[Madison320]

Again, the burden is on those making the claim that the H1B workers are being woefully underpaid.

I agree with your position but I don't think it matters whether H1Bs make wages go up or down. I think you're giving the protectionists a chance to dodge the more critical points. It's a basic free market question. Should businesses have the right to shop for labor, the same as the rest of us shop for goods?

Also I'd like to hear if the protectionists favor licensing for doctors. That limits supply and drives up wages for doctors.

[undergroundrr]

I agree. I'm starting to think the real problem isn't the illegals, it's their legal children. Illegals can't get (that much) welfare and can't vote. What if we changed the law to say you have to have a legal parent to be legal yourself. And then let the illegals stay as long as they don't commit crimes.

That might seem intuitive, but it's not the case. Children of immigrants make way more than their immigrant parents and end up paying more into the system than they take out. They also have political stances that are indistinguishable from natives 1 or 2 generations in, including a disproportionate tendency to self-identify as "libertarian."

How many trumpies have you heard reference all the Latinos who believe in tighter immigration control? Ignoring the irony for a moment, there's no lack of "right-wing" immigrant descendants.

[Madison320]

That might seem intuitive, but it's not the case. Children of immigrants make way more than their immigrant parents and end up paying more into the system than they take out. They also have political stances that are indistinguishable from natives 1 or 2 generations in, including a disproportionate tendency to self-identify as "libertarian."

How many trumpies have you heard reference all the Latinos who believe in tighter immigration control? Ignoring the irony for a moment, there's no lack of "right-wing" immigrant descendants.

That's hard for me to believe. My guess would be that latinos are by far the highest percentage of illegal immigrant. And they vote overwhelmingly for democrats.

[undergroundrr]

That's hard for me to believe. My guess would be that latinos are by far the highest percentage of illegal immigrant. And they vote overwhelmingly for democrats.

I know and I don't blame you. A lot of the claims made by anti-immigrationists seem to make "logical sense" until you actually look at the data.

https://fee.org/articles/hispanics-a...her-americans/
https://panampost.com/editor/2016/08...an-candidates/
http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/08/hispanic-libertarians
https://townhall.com/columnists/rach...arian-n1887818

And by the way, Hispanics are third behind Chinese and Indians in immigration to the US. Hispanic immigration has been declining, presumably because the economic opportunities aren't as attractive as they once were. And that's despite having an unapologetic welfare-statist in office for 8 years. They really do come here to work hard and make money.

"Hispanics, more so than the general public, believe in the efficacy of hard work. Three-in-four (75%) Hispanics say most people can get ahead if they work hard. By contrast, just 58% of the general public say the same."

[jmdrake]

I agree with your position but I don't think it matters whether H1Bs make wages go up or down. I think you're giving the protectionists a chance to dodge the more critical points. It's a basic free market question. Should businesses have the right to shop for labor, the same as the rest of us shop for goods?

Also I'd like to hear if the protectionists favor licensing for doctors. That limits supply and drives up wages for doctors.

I see your point and it is a good one. That said the biggest selling point for me on the free market was the realization that it actually tends to produce the most wealth and that I can personally benefit. Selfish outlook? Maybe. And further the reality is that business will shop for labor regardless of the H1B situation. Businesses can always offshore most IT jobs if it's just about wages. But all of the data I've seen so far suggests that it's not just about wages.

[jmdrake]

I know and I don't blame you. A lot of the claims made by anti-immigrationists seem to make "logical sense" until you actually look at the data.

https://fee.org/articles/hispanics-a...her-americans/
https://panampost.com/editor/2016/08...an-candidates/
http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/08/hispanic-libertarians
https://townhall.com/columnists/rach...arian-n1887818

And by the way, Hispanics are third behind Chinese and Indians in immigration to the US. Hispanic immigration has been declining, presumably because the economic opportunities aren't as attractive as they once were. And that's despite having an unapologetic welfare-statist in office for 8 years. They really do come here to work hard and make money.

"Hispanics, more so than the general public, believe in the efficacy of hard work. Three-in-four (75%) Hispanics say most people can get ahead if they work hard. By contrast, just 58% of the general public say the same."

Hmmmmm....I wasn't aware of that statistic.