Does This Simple Info-graphic Explain The Frustration For Americans In 2016 ?

[Anti Federalist]

I would suggest you guys make your own new country where there no taxes, and everything is pay as you go, call the fireman, pay a $1000 bill.

Every road is tolled to pay for the cost of using it. Oh and call 911 and there is a bill for the police coming. Pay $500 a year for garbage pick up too.

See you are going to pay no matter what, you might save money if you never use ANY basic services. Need an serious medical operation, pay that 100K

In many ways that is already how I live. The problem is, I am still on the hook for thousands of dollars in taxes for schools I do not use, fire departments I do not call, and cops that I would not willingly invite within half a mile of my home.

You do realize that for roughly 150 years that was how fire departments were paid for, by private contributions and insurance?

And people routinely pay tolls on top of taxes, "user" fees on top of taxes, bills for rescue services on top of taxes and on and on.

[Anti Federalist]

Invading Iraq, paying for Abortions, the $900.00 toilet seat the military paid for, and the list goes on and on and on.

And getting back to what this argument was originally about: that is precisely why people who directly benefit from government employment or contracts should NOT be allowed to vote.

Zippy is correct, every one of these spending items has a constituency and lobbyist group in place to make sure people vote to never cut their pet project, making it a ridiculous joke to suggest that spending will be cut in any meaningful way.

[MelissaWV]

Put me down as someone whose check is still largely provided "by Government," considering that our largest payer is Medicare.

The part you're missing, is that while not everyone pays income tax, they are subject to the whims of elected officials. You're looking at it through the lens of the current situation. Consider, instead, teetering on the brink of war and with the ability to toss a draft in there. Some of those "double votes" proposed earlier would come in very handy. Send the poorest out as cannon fodder, keep the people at home down and oppressed and on the Government dole, and rinse/repeat. Mind you, it's not a good situation now, but I don't think using adherence to income tax payments as a criteria for who's a good enough citizen to vote is the answer. Never really thought I'd see the day people would argue that here, where it used to be that NOT paying your taxes was grounds for applause.

[Anti Federalist]

And that might work in a smaller town, but either I have to pay an independent garbage man directly or my property taxes and the local civic government looks after that for me. Can you imagine if a city like LA reverted to pay for your own garbage pick up, for $300 a year reduction in civil taxation.

Wouldn't you rather pay a private contractor?

If times got tough, wouldn't it be nice to know you could either cancel the service, shop for cheaper service or take the trash to the dump or transfer station yourself, rather than worry that you will be run out of your home for not making the property tax payment?

[ProBlue33]

In many ways that is already how I live. The problem is, I am still on the hook for thousands of dollars in taxes for schools I do not use, fire departments I do not call, and cops that I would not willingly invite within half a mile of my home.

That America doesn't' exist anymore, that would have worked when each person had there own family and 5 acres of land.
Now that same 5 acres has condo's and apartments with a 1000 people living on it, times have changed.

[CCTelander]

And that might work in a smaller town, but either I have to pay an independent garbage man directly or my property taxes and the local civic government looks after that for me. Can you imagine if a city like LA reverted to pay for your own garbage pick up, for $300 a year reduction in civil taxation.

Sorry but this is just bull$#@!. I live in a small city of over 200,000 people. We currently have 3 competing waste disposal companies. Rates are very low, service is excellent, and there are never any strikes or other problems that are routine in areas where the government handles waste disposal. As usual, the market provides necessary services that are cheaper and of much higher quality than government ever could.

[Anti Federalist]

That America doesn't' exist anymore, that would have worked when each person had there own family and 5 acres of land.
Now that same 5 acres has condo's and apartments with a 1000 people living on it, times have changed.

That's why I live where I do.

[tod evans]

That America doesn't' exist anymore, that would have worked when each person had there own family and 5 acres of land.
Now that same 5 acres has condo's and apartments with a 1000 people living on it, times have changed.

1000 'people' of which 50% minimum are sucking the tax tit.

This is unsustainable.

It will come to a head and I don't want to be within 500 miles.

[nikcers]

For example I know I need to pay my property taxes so that the fire department can exist and put out fires in my area.

This is the attitude that frustrates this American.

[tod evans]

Put me down as someone whose check is still largely provided "by Government," considering that our largest payer is Medicare.

The part you're missing, is that while not everyone pays income tax, they are subject to the whims of elected officials. You're looking at it through the lens of the current situation. Consider, instead, teetering on the brink of war and with the ability to toss a draft in there. Some of those "double votes" proposed earlier would come in very handy. Send the poorest out as cannon fodder, keep the people at home down and oppressed and on the Government dole, and rinse/repeat. Mind you, it's not a good situation now, but I don't think using adherence to income tax payments as a criteria for who's a good enough citizen to vote is the answer. Never really thought I'd see the day people would argue that here, where it used to be that NOT paying your taxes was grounds for applause.

I'm not arguing double votes on tax merits at all.

My position is that people who "get a check" directly or indirectly should not be able to vote.

I could care less if they've paid taxes, good for them if they haven't there's not much worth footing the bill for what I can tell.

I'ts people who have never sucked the tit who I think should be awarded double vote status.

I was in the USN so I'd be out on double voting, but I no longer suck the tit so I'd still have my one vote.

[CCTelander]

This is the attitude that frustrates this American.

That must be a coloring book produced by the state. Nobody else could be that incompetent.

[MelissaWV]

I'm not arguing double votes on tax merits at all.

My position is that people who "get a check" directly or indirectly should not be able to vote.

I could care less if they've paid taxes, good for them if they haven't there's not much worth footing the bill for what I can tell.

I'ts people who have never sucked the tit who I think should be awarded double vote status.

I was in the USN so I'd be out on double voting, but I no longer suck the tit so I'd still have my one vote.

So essentially, no one in healthcare, very few in manufacturing, no one in the military, very few farmers, no one in the energy sector, very few in finance, no teachers, no firefighters, no police, no one who works at the airport, no one who works at the DMV, provides transportation for old folks' homes, no professors, few people in construction, and a few dozen other professions.

Sounds like the place is going to be run by beauticians.

[tod evans]

I would suggest you guys make your own new country where there no taxes, and everything is pay as you go, call the fireman, pay a $1000
bill. Every road is tolled to pay for the cost of using it. Oh and call 911 and there is a bill for the police coming. Pay $500 a year for garbage pick up too.
See you are going to pay no matter what, you might save money if you never use ANY basic services. Need an serious medical operation, pay that 100K

Cool!

You keep the cities, hell man have the burbs, tax and spend to your hearts content...

Us folks out here in USA/Country will match you city boys dollar for dollar for national defense only, we'll even provide border fences and guards to keep your people away from ours unless immigration protocol is followed...

Pick a minimum size city you want in your nation, 1M? 500K? 250K?

Let's get this ball rollin'!

[tod evans]

So essentially, no one in healthcare, very few in manufacturing, no one in the military, very few farmers, no one in the energy sector, very few in finance, no teachers, no firefighters, no police, no one who works at the airport, no one who works at the DMV, provides transportation for old folks' homes, no professors, few people in construction, and a few dozen other professions.

Sounds like the place is going to be run by beauticians.

Be the quickest way to trim government back to where it belongs wouldn't it?

The sooner all those folks you listed figure out they're working for government they're going to have to decide if they want full fledged socialism or socialism lite like we have now...

[Zippyjuan]

I'm not arguing double votes on tax merits at all.

My position is that people who "get a check" directly or indirectly should not be able to vote.

I could care less if they've paid taxes, good for them if they haven't there's not much worth footing the bill for what I can tell.

I'ts people who have never sucked the tit who I think should be awarded double vote status.

I was in the USN so I'd be out on double voting, but I no longer suck the tit so I'd still have my one vote.

Indirectly could technically cover everybody. If I have as store and a government employee shops in my store, I am indirectly benefiting. So are all the people I hire to work here and all the suppliers.

Don't remember all of the details but there was once a company (might have been a mining company) and the towns people claimed that the mine offered the city no benefits. So the bosses started paying everybody in shiny new silver dollars so show where the money went. Silver dollars started popping up everywhere. Seems everybody was paid at least indirectly by the mine.

[tod evans]

Indirectly could technically cover everybody. If I have as store and a government employee shops in my store, I am indirectly benefiting. So are all the people I hire to work here and all the suppliers.

Don't remember all of the details but there was once a company (might have been a mining company) and the towns people claimed that the mine offered the city no benefits. So the bosses started paying everybody in shiny new silver dollars so show where the money went. Silver dollars started popping up everywhere. Seems everybody was paid at least indirectly by the mine.

Okay, since this is just speculation anyway........say 50% or gross annual sales..

[MelissaWV]

Be the quickest way to trim government back to where it belongs wouldn't it?

The sooner all those folks you listed figure out they're working for government they're going to have to decide if they want full fledged socialism or socialism lite like we have now...

Yeah Lord knows you don't want anyone in the medical field to ever be able to vote, simply because the insurers (more people who can't vote anymore) can't compete with the big ugly Gov medical systems for prompt and consistent payment. No one working at the banks, either, even if they are a lowly teller. I'm not entirely sure who would be voting in your ideal world. Some examples would be nice...

[tod evans]

Yeah Lord knows you don't want anyone in the medical field to ever be able to vote, simply because the insurers (more people who can't vote anymore) can't compete with the big ugly Gov medical systems for prompt and consistent payment. No one working at the banks, either, even if they are a lowly teller. I'm not entirely sure who would be voting in your ideal world. Some examples would be nice...

Small business owners who don't bid or fill government contracts, all self employed people, farmers and fishermen who don't fill government contracts or accept aid, employees of any company that doesn't do 50% government work.

Voting for largess brought us to this juncture the only way out is to stop.

People will never vote to cut their own income, doesn't matter who it's stolen from.

[MelissaWV]

Small business owners who don't bid or fill government contracts, all self employed people, farmers and fishermen who don't fill government contracts or accept aid, employees of any company that doesn't do 50% government work.

Voting for largess brought us to this juncture the only way out is to stop.

People will never vote to cut their own income, doesn't matter who it's stolen from.

So... you do notice you had to change it to "any company that doesn't do 50% government work," which is still undefined, in order to arrive at having a few people actually vote? Essentially, if you're looking for work but also want to vote, you are completely forbidden from a number of careers, many of which used to be quite respectable. I know that we provide service to people who're on Medicare --- which they paid into, and which even Dr. Paul concedes is not some kind of "entitlement" --- but I guess I did not realize that everyone from the radiologist and neurosurgeon, down to the parking attendant, was complicit and should be barred from voting.

[tod evans]

So... you do notice you had to change it to "any company that doesn't do 50% government work," which is still undefined, in order to arrive at having a few people actually vote? Essentially, if you're looking for work but also want to vote, you are completely forbidden from a number of careers, many of which used to be quite respectable. I know that we provide service to people who're on Medicare --- which they paid into, and which even Dr. Paul concedes is not some kind of "entitlement" --- but I guess I did not realize that everyone from the radiologist and neurosurgeon, down to the parking attendant, was complicit and should be barred from voting.

Here's what I said initially;

I disagree.

Anybody who exists by way of government largess should never be permitted to vote for more largess.

This includes all government 'workers' as well as 'workers' whose income is derived primarily from government contracts and of course anybody who sucks 'free-$#@!' from the coffers.

People who have never drawn a check for any reason should be given two votes, like the Democrats do in Chicago now...

So there's no changing anything. step it up to 75% if it floats your boat the country would still be better off in two election cycles.

Over 50% of the population 'gets a check' now and it's going to get worse.

Would you permit them to write their own checks?

[Anti Federalist]

I see this touched a nerve, as it always does, since there are so many directly dependent on extorted funds stolen from their fellow citizens.

So let's make it simple:

If you receive direct government payments in any form: no vote.

There, simple.

Of course this is all pipe dreaming nonsense, the Rubicon has already been crossed and the whole $#@!ing mess is done.

[scm]

No, maybe I am having difficulty comprehending somebody could be as unrealistic; and well as ignorant as you.
You want to take the right to vote away from first responders and even their dependents, and the retired ones too, that's pure insanity.
You have dug your idealogical hole for all to see in this thread.

Im not 100 % sure but I think the point is (and Ron Paul makes this VERY clear), is that big government is bad government. And yes. This includes police, (non?) volunteer firefighters and other public servents.
I don't think it's very "libertarian" to take away voting rights. But I could almost agree with what the poster says. I think it's a very fair question and doesn't call for name calling. Just needs understanding.

[scm]

Telling people from MA that you have no govt. trash service, their heads explode. It's kinda funny.

[Zippyjuan]

I see this touched a nerve, as it always does, since there are so many directly dependent on extorted funds stolen from their fellow citizens.

So let's make it simple:

If you receive direct government payments in any form: no vote.

There, simple.

Of course this is all pipe dreaming nonsense, the Rubicon has already been crossed and the whole $#@!ing mess is done.

Grannie ain't gonna be none to happy 'bout that!

[nikcers]

Are you saying the problem isn't big government it's people who don't pay for big government being allowed to vote ???
Checkmate libertarians.
I guess we are all big government authoritarians now.

[Occam's Banana]

I see this touched a nerve, as it always does, since there are so many directly dependent on extorted funds stolen from their fellow citizens.

[ProBlue33]

It's interesting how this thread started and where it went from there, but I know Ron Paul would not deny somebody the right to vote just because they were on some form of government aid, even he said programs would be grandfathered. And he had the most aggressive cuts I have ever seen lined up.

If Ron couldn't sell it, nobody can, keep fantasizing about your economic model that will never happen.

[TheTexan]

I hate taxes like everybody, but I realize there are some services I need to help pay for.
For example I know I need to pay my property taxes so that the fire department can exist and put out fires in my area.

Yes, without taxes, there would be no fire department, no water/utilities, no police, no roads, etc. There is no other way, but taxes.

It is known.

[TheTexan]

It's interesting how this thread started and where it went from there, but I know Ron Paul would not deny somebody the right to vote just because they were on some form of government aid

Voting is a sacred right adorned to us at Birth by the Almighty God and George Washington themselves.

All men, women, have the natural right to vote, to aptly control their neighbors in democratic fashion,,, It is a right to All Americans.

Except felons of course.

[alucard13mm]

I hate taxes like everybody, but I realize there are some services I need to help pay for.
For example I know I need to pay my property taxes so that the fire department can exist and put out fires in my area.

How do you propose we pay for the essential services the modern city needs ?
It can't be all volunteers, working for free that just isn't viable in this day and age.
And even if you did get all volunteer labor, at some point you need to pay for expensive equipment like a firetruck.

Some of you guys are just unrealistic in your expectations of how things should work in 2016.

Of coarse all wasteful spending should be shut down, but that doesn't mean it's a zero spending budget.

Indeed. Stop nation building other countries. Nation build our own.

Its like how some peoples houses burn down because they didnt pay their taxes or fee. The firemen just stood there to watch and make sure it didnt spread to homes that did pay.