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Thread: Learn Liberty - Full Debate: Is Immigration a Human Right?

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    “Truth is Treason in an Empire of Lies”

    Aren’t some of the folks here on this forum advocating for states to secede from the union?

    No person or property has been harmed during exercising my freedom - no donations requested/required.

    And here you are referencing somebody who advocates “shoot to kill” on sight - on RonPaulForums to boot. Though I hope AF is only expressing frustration and not a course of action.
    Not saying you are requesting money. I am saying that your lame exercise and request for civil disobedience is not productive and would not be done by people that have anything to lose and that Ron, Rand, Thomas would not drive an unregistered car without a license or skirt employment laws to practice civil disobedience. I am calling you out to explain how this Utopia you preach works in this day. Typing that it does and requesting millions of immigrants to move here is flat out crap.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Not saying you are requesting money. I am saying that your lame exercise and request for civil disobedience is not productive and would not be done by people that have anything to lose and that Ron, Rand, Thomas would not drive an unregistered car without a license or skirt employment laws to practice civil disobedience. I am calling you out to explain how this Utopia you preach works in this day. Typing that it does and requesting millions of immigrants to move here is flat out crap.

    I have not purchased a “burning permit” for years. Some of my neighbors don’t anymore either. It is amazing how that is no longer enforced like they used to be. Perhaps they have become afraid they will lose votes.

    Do you think Ron would object to that?

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ing-of-Liberty
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I have not purchased a “burning permit” for years. Some of my neighbors don’t anymore either. It is amazing how that is no longer enforced like they used to be. Perhaps they have become afraid they will lose votes.

    Do you think Ron would object to that?

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ing-of-Liberty
    Do you have a drivers license?

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I have not purchased a “burning permit” for years. Some of my neighbors don’t anymore either. It is amazing how that is no longer enforced like they used to be. Perhaps they have become afraid they will lose votes.

    Do you think Ron would object to that?

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ing-of-Liberty
    I think a lot us see Irwin Schiff as an example of what happens when you try to practice civil disobedience and not pay taxes. I also think a lot of us see people who don't pay taxes but benefit off the government taxing other people as being parasites. Its one thing to advocate changing the law and make coalitions to change the system, Not contributing to the system in which you benefit from could be seen as a modern day form of slavery. I definitely understand the philosophy that you choose to live by but also don't see how it contributes to changing the system to a better model of government unless you create a coalition to change the government. The only time I really think that this is effective for limited government activists is if you can try to convince people to come to table and change things because of your actions. If you aren't convincing enough or even any people to do this you are essentially being greedy and forcing other people to prop up your standard of living. I tend to think if you aren't going to effectively try to change the system but you don't want to consent to government force you should leave the country..

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    The problem is, the symptoms are being focused on, rather than the cause. And we continue to go 'round in this endless loop.

    Of course, locales vary, some are actually good, while others are not. In my locale, for instance, there are a lot of immigrants who actually own businesses and vote very conservatively. I know them personally, and many have supported Ron Paul back in 2012 (I still have the vote results in a spreadsheet). Had it not been for them, Ron Paul never would have won all 3 delegates by landslide in my area.

    Hatred and threatening to kill on site will never win people over, it is prosperity through peaceful solutions that Ron Paul and I advocate, and continue to work toward. No, it cannot be done overnight, but to continue to advocate the former will only make matters worse - much worse.

    Government bureaucrats are at fault, they do not care if one is American born, or foreign, they will continue to ensure that government expansion continues in order to retain their own jobs and power over people. And as long as they offer "free stuff", lazy Americans in Section 8 will continue to take advantage of the handouts. Reducing and/or eliminating people who WANT to work, American and foreign, will only ensure that Welfare continues, all while taking businesses down with it.
    The cause is socialists and you want to allow an unlimited number of them to come here.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    “Truth is Treason in an Empire of Lies”

    Aren’t some of the folks here on this forum advocating for states to secede from the union?

    No person or property has been harmed during exercising my freedom - no donations requested/required.

    And here you are referencing somebody who advocates “shoot to kill” on sight - on RonPaulForums to boot. Though I hope AF is only expressing frustration and not a course of action.
    Secession is pointless if you have open borders afterwards and it is pointless if the seceding territory is incapable of defending itself.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I have not purchased a “burning permit” for years. Some of my neighbors don’t anymore either. It is amazing how that is no longer enforced like they used to be. Perhaps they have become afraid they will lose votes.

    Do you think Ron would object to that?

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ing-of-Liberty
    Depends on where you live. If you are in a wet humid climate on a 3 acre island then maybe not an issue. If a person with something to lose were to start a controlled fire in a dry area that is prone to forest and wild fires, they would be wise to think twice before striking the match without the proper paperwork. A person could lose everything if a huge fire started by their negligence. Fire is nothing to mess around with. My guess is if Ron has acreage in a dry area and fire permits are required to burn, he would get the permit or hire someone to do the burn and make sure they do it responsibly. I would also think if a fire ban is in place because the area has not seen rain for 45 days and is extremely dry he would not start a fire. I do not know what kind of fire you speak of or your situation.

    Blatantly driving an unregistered automobile with the defense that you are free to travel is idiotic. Starting a fire to burn off some weeds in the height of a drought is idiotic. Building a fire to cook a varmint you trapped while stranded and lost in the forest is justifiable. Driving a person to the hospital without a license or registered vehicle that is having a heart attack when you have no phone is justifiable.

    I do not think Ron would start a fire without a permit. Ron has no need to do so. Ron would probably warn a child of the dangers of fire and how easily it gets out of control and the repercussions and liability from the law if you start a fire that gets out of control.


  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Depends on where you live. If you are in a wet humid climate on a 3 acre island then maybe not an issue. If a person with something to lose were to start a controlled fire in a dry area that is prone to forest and wild fires, they would be wise to think twice before striking the match without the proper paperwork. A person could lose everything if a huge fire started by their negligence. Fire is nothing to mess around with. My guess is if Ron has acreage in a dry area and fire permits are required to burn, he would get the permit or hire someone to do the burn and make sure they do it responsibly. I would also think if a fire ban is in place because the area has not seen rain for 45 days and is extremely dry he would not start a fire. I do not know what kind of fire you speak of or your situation.

    Blatantly driving an unregistered automobile with the defense that you are free to travel is idiotic. Starting a fire to burn off some weeds in the height of a drought is idiotic. Building a fire to cook a varmint you trapped while stranded and lost in the forest is justifiable. Driving a person to the hospital without a license or registered vehicle that is having a heart attack when you have no phone is justifiable.

    I do not think Ron would start a fire without a permit. Ron has no need to do so. Ron would probably warn a child of the dangers of fire and how easily it gets out of control and the repercussions and liability from the law if you start a fire that gets out of control.

    “Permits” do not ensure that people burn safely - personal responsibility does that. “Permits” do not pay the damage if smoke enters your next door neighbors house - you/insurance does that. If the “permit” is to only burn logs on Saturday but the bonfire for the kids birthday is on Sunday, why did my relative deserve to be fined by the government when no damage has occurred?

    Do you support gun permits, perhaps for open carry, since the fire-arm is exposed?

    Do you support the NRA, or the GOA?

    Great video, btw. When I told Ron about the burn permit thing, he got a pretty good chuckle out of it. Not that I was asking permission, because I wasn’t ;-)
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    “Permits” do not ensure that people burn safely - personal responsibility does that. “Permits” do not pay the damage if smoke enters your next door neighbors house - you/insurance does that. If the “permit” is to only burn logs on Saturday but the bonfire for the kids birthday is on Sunday, why did my relative deserve to be fined by the government when no damage has occurred?

    Do you support gun permits, perhaps for open carry, since the fire-arm is exposed?

    Do you support the NRA, or the GOA?

    Great video, btw. When I told Ron about the burn permit thing, he got a pretty good chuckle out of it. Not that I was asking permission, because I wasn’t ;-)
    Do you have a Drivers License?

    I understand your points and agree. Did you see my posts in regards to licenses and permits and responsibility? However, if you do burn without a permit and cause damage you had an illegal burn. If you have the permit you dotted your i. If you have nothing to lose then go for it. If you have much to lose the permit is insignificant and worth getting to avoid issues later. Need to pick your battles. You advocate to let illegals come here and get hired for free market wage. That will never work in the system we have because all they have to do is complain they are treated unfairly or cause damage or???? and you are liable. Drive your vehicle with no plates. Take them off. Drop your registration. That seems pretty simple and you can argue you have a constitutional right to travel. What is the difference between your burn permit and your vehicle registration and drivers license?

    Honestly IMHO a preacher makes his living off of selling God. As much as I like Ron Paul, he made his fortune off of selling his political input and his newsletters. I agree with him but he has had little to no effect on changing laws or policies. Disobeying mandated established law is idiotic for a person that would have more to lose than gain. I looked up your buddy Adam Kokesh yesterday. Worth 10 million and paid his girlfriend $40 per week via contract to be his slave. Don't really care what the deal is with that but that is what is being purported. Adam makes his living off of selling liberty crap. He profits from getting arrested. He thrives on the attention. Some consider him a psychopath.

    What does Ron advocate? He might encourage you to do what you think is right and to take a liberty stance. He might even speak out on your behalf. I bet Ron would not spend one day in jail disobeying an established law. He would rather get paid to talk about it.

    There are people that believe the earth is flat. Do they really believe that or is that only what they sell? Is the grungy person with a sign really homeless and poor or do they panhandle because it is extremely lucrative?

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Do you have a Drivers License?

    I understand your points and agree. Did you see my posts in regards to licenses and permits and responsibility? However, if you do burn without a permit and cause damage you had an illegal burn. If you have the permit you dotted your i. If you have nothing to lose then go for it. If you have much to lose the permit is insignificant and worth getting to avoid issues later. Need to pick your battles. You advocate to let illegals come here and get hired for free market wage. That will never work in the system we have because all they have to do is complain they are treated unfairly or cause damage or???? and you are liable. Drive your vehicle with no plates. Take them off. Drop your registration. That seems pretty simple and you can argue you have a constitutional right to travel. What is the difference between your burn permit and your vehicle registration and drivers license?

    Honestly IMHO a preacher makes his living off of selling God. As much as I like Ron Paul, he made his fortune off of selling his political input and his newsletters. I agree with him but he has had little to no effect on changing laws or policies. Disobeying mandated established law is idiotic for a person that would have more to lose than gain. I looked up your buddy Adam Kokesh yesterday. Worth 10 million and paid his girlfriend $40 per week via contract to be his slave. Don't really care what the deal is with that but that is what is being purported. Adam makes his living off of selling liberty crap. He profits from getting arrested. He thrives on the attention. Some consider him a psychopath.

    What does Ron advocate? He might encourage you to do what you think is right and to take a liberty stance. He might even speak out on your behalf. I bet Ron would not spend one day in jail disobeying an established law. He would rather get paid to talk about it.

    There are people that believe the earth is flat. Do they really believe that or is that only what they sell? Is the grungy person with a sign really homeless and poor or do they panhandle because it is extremely lucrative?
    I am a volunteerist, just like this guy, who explains everything in detail where Ron and Walter Block have not taken the time to do so. I am pretty confident that any change in policy that Ron and Walter would advocate would encompass what is contained in the video. It is an extremely tough pill for people filled with nothing but hate, but so is standing for each and every Bill of Right among those who do not care about them.

    I do pick my battles very wisely, which is why I stay out of trouble and still effective at the same time. Libertarian is a philosophy, Agorist is the practical approach to applying Libertarianism on a day to day basis.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  13. #101
    Last response to you PAF because you have no solutions. All you have is controversy. Create a list of practical, realistic, things that can be done to better our society that do not involve lawsuits, getting fined, or getting arrested. Develop a system to take over congress or senate with a majority of Thomas Massie's and I will join in. Adam Kokesh is a waste of time and money. He is a joke and showman. The baggage he brings does not help. I truly believe his activism is not for love of freedom but for financial motive. He makes bad choices. Did he not surround himself with all these "friends" that screwed him? Trash. Not worthy of support.

    Alex Jones in it for profit. Aggressive. Won't shut up. But his organization puts out some good news. Too controversial and loud to change anyone that doesn't already agree with him.

    Thomas Massie outstanding individual. True Patriot. Bet he leaves politics for farm life one day never to return to it.

    Rush Limbaugh politically astute and way more professional than Alex Jones but only a mouthpiece and obviously in it for the money.

    Country going down the toilet. Me disobeying laws that will cost me jail time or financial duress only profits the system.

    Schools must be the root of the problem. Kids are propagandized from nearly birth. If you want to change public opinion you don't stand a chance unless you can spend all those years convincing the youngest of our society that grow up and take over. Today huge portion of population on antipsychotic or antidepressant medications and have so many problems. ohhh poor people... They have it so bad. Mommy and daddy did everything for them and they just cannot find happiness. Too late for them. Why try to rehabilitate a drug addict or try to teach an obese person with all the wrong habits how to eat? Plant the new tree and care for it and it will bear good fruit. The withered up dying infested tree is a waste of my resources.

    No more responses to you PAF. Good luck. I have things to do here that are not going to get done by discussing nonsense.

    It is time for rational people to compile strategies that can work instead of all the crap that does not. This country needs an influx of the 180* opposite of AOC. This country needs Pride. This country needs rational people to be heard not abused and demeaned.

    An egg needs to be called an egg. A leaf is a leaf. When it is raining it is raining. Identify what is real and get a consensus that it is real. Identify people that cannot identify reality and chastise them for their idiocracy. Feelings get hurt when truth confronts fiction. Truth needs to prevail. Maybe that is what needs to be promoted above all else. Non disputable Truth that when disputed renders the disputer incompetent and idiotic. Call these people out for what they are.

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Last response to you PAF because you have no solutions. All you have is controversy. Create a list of practical, realistic, things that can be done to better our society that do not involve lawsuits, getting fined, or getting arrested. Develop a system to take over congress or senate with a majority of Thomas Massie's and I will join in. Adam Kokesh is a waste of time and money. He is a joke and showman. The baggage he brings does not help. I truly believe his activism is not for love of freedom but for financial motive. He makes bad choices. Did he not surround himself with all these "friends" that screwed him? Trash. Not worthy of support.

    Alex Jones in it for profit. Aggressive. Won't shut up. But his organization puts out some good news. Too controversial and loud to change anyone that doesn't already agree with him.

    Thomas Massie outstanding individual. True Patriot. Bet he leaves politics for farm life one day never to return to it.

    Rush Limbaugh politically astute and way more professional than Alex Jones but only a mouthpiece and obviously in it for the money.

    Country going down the toilet. Me disobeying laws that will cost me jail time or financial duress only profits the system.

    Schools must be the root of the problem. Kids are propagandized from nearly birth. If you want to change public opinion you don't stand a chance unless you can spend all those years convincing the youngest of our society that grow up and take over. Today huge portion of population on antipsychotic or antidepressant medications and have so many problems. ohhh poor people... They have it so bad. Mommy and daddy did everything for them and they just cannot find happiness. Too late for them. Why try to rehabilitate a drug addict or try to teach an obese person with all the wrong habits how to eat? Plant the new tree and care for it and it will bear good fruit. The withered up dying infested tree is a waste of my resources.

    No more responses to you PAF. Good luck. I have things to do here that are not going to get done by discussing nonsense.

    It is time for rational people to compile strategies that can work instead of all the crap that does not. This country needs an influx of the 180* opposite of AOC. This country needs Pride. This country needs rational people to be heard not abused and demeaned.

    An egg needs to be called an egg. A leaf is a leaf. When it is raining it is raining. Identify what is real and get a consensus that it is real. Identify people that cannot identify reality and chastise them for their idiocracy. Feelings get hurt when truth confronts fiction. Truth needs to prevail. Maybe that is what needs to be promoted above all else. Non disputable Truth that when disputed renders the disputer incompetent and idiotic. Call these people out for what they are.

    Good luck to you, Schifference, you're really going to need it. As I have always said, liberty comes from within. One can either live it, or wish all their lives about it ;-)
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Last response to you PAF because you have no solutions. All you have is controversy. Create a list of practical, realistic, things that can be done to better our society that do not involve lawsuits, getting fined, or getting arrested. Develop a system to take over congress or senate with a majority of Thomas Massie's and I will join in. Adam Kokesh is a waste of time and money. He is a joke and showman. The baggage he brings does not help. I truly believe his activism is not for love of freedom but for financial motive. He makes bad choices. Did he not surround himself with all these "friends" that screwed him? Trash. Not worthy of support.

    Alex Jones in it for profit. Aggressive. Won't shut up. But his organization puts out some good news. Too controversial and loud to change anyone that doesn't already agree with him.

    Thomas Massie outstanding individual. True Patriot. Bet he leaves politics for farm life one day never to return to it.

    Rush Limbaugh politically astute and way more professional than Alex Jones but only a mouthpiece and obviously in it for the money.

    Country going down the toilet. Me disobeying laws that will cost me jail time or financial duress only profits the system.

    Schools must be the root of the problem. Kids are propagandized from nearly birth. If you want to change public opinion you don't stand a chance unless you can spend all those years convincing the youngest of our society that grow up and take over. Today huge portion of population on antipsychotic or antidepressant medications and have so many problems. ohhh poor people... They have it so bad. Mommy and daddy did everything for them and they just cannot find happiness. Too late for them. Why try to rehabilitate a drug addict or try to teach an obese person with all the wrong habits how to eat? Plant the new tree and care for it and it will bear good fruit. The withered up dying infested tree is a waste of my resources.

    No more responses to you PAF. Good luck. I have things to do here that are not going to get done by discussing nonsense.

    It is time for rational people to compile strategies that can work instead of all the crap that does not. This country needs an influx of the 180* opposite of AOC. This country needs Pride. This country needs rational people to be heard not abused and demeaned.

    An egg needs to be called an egg. A leaf is a leaf. When it is raining it is raining. Identify what is real and get a consensus that it is real. Identify people that cannot identify reality and chastise them for their idiocracy. Feelings get hurt when truth confronts fiction. Truth needs to prevail. Maybe that is what needs to be promoted above all else. Non disputable Truth that when disputed renders the disputer incompetent and idiotic. Call these people out for what they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Good luck to you, Schifference, you're really going to need it. As I have always said, liberty comes from within. One can either live it, or wish all their lives about it ;-)
    PAF only has platitudes designed to put us to sleep while the invaders finish off our chances for good.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Do you have a right to travel all over the place at your pleasure? No, absolutely not.

    Do you have a right to travel wherever property owners admit you, without being caged by third parties who dislike you? Absolutely
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Travel simply means moving from one place to another.

    If I move from my house to my neighbor's house, who's invited me, it's no one's concern but his and mine how long I stay there.

    The neighborhood has no right to hold a vote on whether I ought to be allowed to make that move.
    I agree. But if you must traverse any other properties in order to arrive at you destination, then you must secure the permission of the owners of those other properties - or you must invoke any relevant easements which those property owners are obliged to respect.

    The problem arises when we consider "public" property. Who are the "owners" and who are the "third parties?" What easements apply, if any, and under what conditions - and according to whom?

    Whatever the answers to those questions, I am unsure how it is a violation of anyone's rights if a decision about "public" property is made (however it might have been arrived at) that for whatever reasons (however unwise or imprudent) some shall be permitted to traverse while others shall not, any more than it is a violation of anyone's rights if a decision about private property is made (however it might have been arrived at) that for whatever reasons (however unwise or imprudent) some shall be permitted to traverse while others shall not.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 09-02-2019 at 10:09 AM.
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    I agree. But if you must traverse any other properties in order to arrive at you destination, then you must secure the permission of the owners of those other properties - or you must invoke any relevant easements which those property owners are obliged to respect.
    Certainly

    The problem arises when we consider "public" property. Who are the "owners" and who are the "third parties?" What easements apply, if any, and under what conditions - and according to whom?

    Whatever the answers to those questions, I am unsure how it is a violation of anyone's rights if a decision about "public" property is made (however it might have been arrived at) that for whatever reasons (however unwise or imprudent) some shall be permitted to traverse while others shall not, any more than it is a violation of anyone's rights if a decision about private property is made (however it might have been arrived at) that for whatever reasons (however unwise or imprudent) some shall be permitted to traverse while others shall not.
    That is a problem, but only because of the current situation; it's no theoretical problem.

    I don't have a strong opinion about how that ought to be handled given the current situation.

    ...but I am extremely critical of, for example, anti-immigrant 'libertarians' who use this to justify restrictionism.

    cough*Hoppe*cough

    It's not unlike the whole "sticky wages" business; given wage stickyness because of coercive unionism, e.g, is inflation a sound policy?

    ...I don't much care; eliminate the coercive unionism.

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