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Thread: 'Religious liberty' bill passes Georgia Legislature

  1. #1

    'Religious liberty' bill passes Georgia Legislature

    'Religious liberty' bill passes Georgia Legislature

    Atlanta Journal Constitution-19 hours ago
    The Georgia Legislature over the course of a few hours Wednesday unveiled changes to a controversial “religious liberty” bill and gave it final ...

    Religious liberty bill passes Georgia Legislature
    Religion News Service-3 hours ago
    Religious liberty bills protect bigotry, not freedom
    The Maneater-22 hours ago
    GOP majority in Georgia Legislature passes 'religious liberty' bill
    MyAJC-14 hours ago
    Sweeping religious liberties bill passes Senate
    The Courier-Journal-Mar 15, 2016
    ​Georgia's "religious liberty law" stirs backlash from business
    In-Depth-CBS News-Mar 16, 2016


    http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/...0152016/HB/757

    Code:
    AM 25 1379
    - 1 -
                                               ADOPTED
    Representative Tanner of the 9th offers the following amendment:
    Amend the Senate substitute to HB 757 by deleting all matter from line 1 through the end and
    replacing it with the following:
    
    To protect religious freedoms; to provide for defenses and relief related thereto; to amend
    Chapter  3  of  Title  19  of  the  Official  Code  of  Georgia  Annotated,  relating  to  marriage
    generally, so as to provide that religious officials shall not be required to perform marriage
    ceremonies, perform rites, or administer sacraments in violation of their legal right to free
    exercise  of  religion;  to  provide  that  no  individual  shall  be  required  to  attend  the
    solemnization  of  a  marriage,  performance  of  rites,  or  administration  of  sacraments  in
    violation of their legal right to free exercise of religion; to amend Chapter 1 of Title 10 of the
    Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to selling and other trade practices, so as to
    change certain provisions relating to days of rest for employees of business and industry; to
    protect property owners which are faith based organizations against infringement of religious
    freedom; to protect certain providers of services against infringement of religious freedom;
    to amend Chapter 1 of Title 34 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to labor
    and industrial relations generally, so as to provide that faith based organizations shall not be
    required to hire or retain certain persons as employees; to amend Title 50 of the Official
    Code  of  Georgia  Annotated,  relating  to  state  government,  so  as  to  provide  for  the
    preservation of religious freedom; to provide for the granting of relief; to provide for waiver
    of sovereign immunity under certain circumstances; to provide for definitions; to provide for
    ante litem notices; to provide a short title; to provide for related matters; to provide for an
    effective date; to repeal conflicting laws; and for other purposes.
    
    BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF GEORGIA:
    
    SECTION 1.
    This Act shall be known and may be cited as the "Free Exercise Protection Act."
    
    SECTION 2.
    Chapter  3  of  Title  19  of  the  Official  Code  of  Georgia  Annotated,  relating  to  marriage
    generally, is amended by adding a new Code section to read as follows:
    
    AM 25 1379
    - 2 -
    "
    19-3-11.
    
    (a)  As used in this Code section, the term 'government' means the state or any political
    subdivision of the state or public instrumentality or public corporate body created by or
    under authority of state law.
    
    (b)  All individuals who are ministers of the gospel or clerics or religious practitioners
    ordained or authorized to solemnize marriages, perform rites, or administer sacraments
    according  to  the  usages  of  the  denomination  shall  be  free  to  solemnize  any  marriage,
    perform  any  rite,  or  administer  any  sacrament  or  to  decline  to  do  the  same,  in  their
    discretion, in the exercise of their rights to free exercise of religion under the Constitution
    of this state or of the United States.
    
    (c)
    (1)  A refusal by an ordained or authorized individual pursuant to subsection (b) of this
    Code section shall not give rise to a civil claim or cause of action against such individual
    or result in any state action to penalize, withhold benefits from, or discriminate against
    such individual based on such refusal.
    
    (2)  A refusal by an ordained or authorized individual pursuant to subsection (b) of this
    
    Code section shall not be grounds to:
    (A)    Alter  in  any  way  state  tax  treatment  of  an  exemption  from  taxation  for  such
    individual under state law;
    
    (B)  Cause any tax, penalty, or payment to be assessed against such individual or deny,
    delay, or revoke an exemption from taxation for such individual under state law; or
    
    (C)  Disallow a deduction for state tax purposes of any charitable contribution made by
    such individual.
    
    (d)    All  individuals  shall  be  free  to  attend  or  not  attend,  at  their  discretion,  the
    solemnization of any marriage, performance of any rite, or administration of any sacrament
    in the exercise of their rights to free exercise of religion under the Constitution of this state
    or of the United States.
    
    (e)  An individual may assert a violation of this Code section by a government as a claim
    or defense in a judicial, agency, or other proceeding and obtain a declaratory judgment or
    injunctive relief in a court of competent jurisdiction.
    
    (f)  When an aggrieved individual prevails in an action pursuant to this Code section, the
    court may award reasonable attorney's fees and court costs.
    
    (g)  No individual having a claim against a government under this Code section shall bring
    any such action without first giving notice of the claim to such government, in writing, by
    certified mail or statutory overnight delivery, at least 30 days prior to filing such action,
    setting forth the particular prohibited action alleged to have been taken by the government
    against such individual.
    "
    
    AM 25 1379
    - 3 -
    SECTION 3.
    
    Chapter 1 of Title 10 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to selling and other
    trade practices, is amended by revising Code Section 10-1-573, relating to day of rest for
    employees of business and industry, as follows:
    
    "
    10-1-573.
    (a)
      Any business or industry which operates on either of the two rest days (Saturday or
    Sunday)  and  employs  those  whose  habitual  day  of  worship  has  been  chosen  by  the
    employer as a day of work shall make all reasonable accommodations to the religious,
    social, and physical needs of such employees so that those employees may enjoy the same
    benefits as employees in other occupations.
    
    (b)  No business or industry shall be required by ordinance or resolution of any county,
    municipality,  or  consolidated  government  to  operate  on  either  of  the  two  rest  days
    (Saturday or Sunday).
    "
    
    SECTION 4.
    
    Said chapter is further amended by adding a new article to read as follows:
    "
    ARTICLE 35
    10-1-1000.
    
    As used in this article, the term:
    
    (1)    'Faith  based  organization'  means  a  church,  a  religious  school,  an  association  or
    convention  of  churches,  a  convention  mission  agency,  or  an  integrated  auxiliary  of  a
    church  or  convention  or  association  of  churches,  when  such  entity  is  qualified  as  an
    exempt religious organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of
    1986, as amended.
    
    (2)    'Government'  means  the  state  or  any  political  subdivision  of  the  state  or  public
    instrumentality or public corporate body created by or under authority of state law.
    
    10-1-1001.
    (a)    No  faith  based  organization  shall  be  required  to  rent,  lease,  or  otherwise  grant
    permission for property to be used by another person for an event which is objectionable
    to such faith based organization.
    
    (b)    No  faith  based  organization  shall  be  required  to  provide  social,  educational,  or
    
    charitable services that violate such faith based organization's sincerely held religious belief
    as demonstrated by its practice, expression, or clearly articulated tenet of faith; provided,
    
    AM 25 1379
    - 4 -
    however, that government may enforce the terms of a grant, contract, or other agreement
    voluntarily entered into by such faith based organization.
    
    10-1-1002.
    
    (a)(1)  A refusal by a faith based organization pursuant to Code Section 10-1-1001 shall
    
    not give rise to a civil claim or cause of action against such faith based organization or
    an employee thereof or result in any state action to penalize, withhold benefits from, or
    discriminate against the faith based organization or employee based on such refusal.
    
    (2)  A refusal by a faith based organization pursuant to Code Section 10-1-1001 shall not
    be grounds to:
    
    (A)  Alter in any way state tax treatment of an exemption from taxation for such faith
    based organization under state law;
    
    (B)    Cause  any  tax,  penalty,  or  payment  to  be  assessed  against  such  faith  based
    organization or deny, delay, or revoke an exemption from taxation for such faith based
    organization under state law; or
    
    (C)  Disallow a deduction for state tax purposes of any charitable contribution made by
    or to such faith based organization.
    
    (b)  A faith based organization may assert a violation of this Code section by a government
    as a claim or defense in a judicial, agency, or other proceeding and obtain a declaratory
    judgment or injunctive relief in a court of competent jurisdiction.
    
    (c)  When an aggrieved faith based organization prevails in an action pursuant to this Code
    section, the court may award reasonable attorney's fees and court costs.
    
    (d)    No  faith  based  organization  having  a  claim  against  a  government  under  this  Code
    section  shall  bring  any  such  action  without  first  giving  notice  of  the  claim  to  such
    government, in writing, by certified mail or statutory overnight delivery, at least 30 days
    prior to filing such action, setting forth the particular prohibited action alleged to have been
    taken by the government against such faith based organization.
    "
    
    SECTION 5.
    122
    Chapter  1  of  Title  34  of  the  Official  Code  of  Georgia  Annotated,  relating  to  labor  and
    123
    industrial relations generally, is amended by adding a new Code section to read as follows:
    124
    "
    34-1-9.
    125
    (a)  As used in this Code section, the term:
    126
    (1)    'Faith  based  organization'  means  a  church,  a  religious  school,  an  association  or
    127
    convention  of  churches,  a  convention  mission  agency,  or  an  integrated  auxiliary  of  a
    128
    church  or  convention  or  association  of  churches,  when  such  entity  is  qualified  as  an
    129
    AM 25 1379
    - 5 -
    exempt religious organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of
    130
    1986, as amended.
    131
    (2)    'Government'  means  the  state  or  a
    ny  political  subdivision  of  
    the  state  or  public
    132
    instrumentality or public corporate body created by or under authority of state law.
    133
    (b)  Except as provided by the Constitution of this state or the United States or federal law,
    134
    no faith based organization shall be required to hire or retain as an employee any person
    135
    whose religious beliefs or practices or lack of either are not in accord with the faith based
    136
    organization's sincerely held religious belief as demonstrated by practice, expression, or
    137
    clearly articulated tenet of faith.
    138
    (c)(1)    A  refusal  by  a  faith  based  organization  to  hire  or  retain  a  person  pursuant  to
    139
    subsection (b) of this Code section shall not give rise to a civil claim or cause of action
    140
    against such faith based organization or an employee thereof or result in any state action
    141
    to penalize, withhold benefits from, or discriminate against the faith based organization
    142
    or employee based on such refusal.
    143
    (2)    A  refusal  by  a  faith  based  organization  to  hire  or  retain  a  person  pursuant  to
    144
    subsection (b) of this Code section shall not be grounds to:
    145
    (A)  Alter in any way state tax treatment of an exemption from taxation for such faith
    146
    based organization under state law;
    147
    (B)    Cause  any  tax,  penalty,  or  payment  to  be  assessed  against  such  faith  based
    148
    organization or deny, delay, or revoke an exemption from taxation for such faith based
    149
    organization under state law; or
    150
    (C)  Disallow a deduction for state tax purpos
    es of any charitable contribution made by
    151
    or to such faith based organization.
    152
    (d)  A faith based organization may assert a violation of this Code section by a government
    153
    as a claim or defense in a judicial, agenc
    y, or other proceeding and obtain a declaratory
    154
    judgment or injunctive relief in a court of competent jurisdiction.
    155
    (e)  When an aggrieved faith based organization prevails in an action pursuant to this Code
    156
    section, the court may award reasonable attorney's fees and court costs.
    157
    (f)    No  faith  based  organization  having  a  claim  against  a  government  under  this  Code
    158
    section  shall  bring  any  such  action  without  first  giving  notice  of  the  claim  to  such
    159
    government, in writing, by certified mail or statutory overnight delivery, at least 30 days
    160
    prior to filing such action, setting forth the par
    ticular prohibited action alleged to have been
    161
    taken by the government against such faith based organization.
    "
    162
    SECTION 6.
    163
    Title 50 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to state government, is amended
    164
    by adding a new chapter to read as follows:
    165
    AM 25 1379
    - 6 -
    "
    CHAPTER 15A
    166
    50-15A-1.
    167
    As used in this chapter, the term:
    168
    (1)    'Delinquent  act'  shall  have  the  same  meaning  as  provided  for  in  Code  Section
    169
    15-11-2.
    170
    (2)  'Demonstrates' means meets the burdens of going forward with the evidence and of
    171
    persuasion.
    172
    (3)  'Exercise of religion' means the exercise of religion pursuant to Paragraphs III and
    173
    IV of Section I, Article I of the Constitution 
    of this state or the Free Exercise Clause of
    174
    the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
    175
    (4)    'Government'  means  the  state  or  any  political  subdivision  of  the  state  or  public
    176
    instrumentality or public corporate body created by or under authority of state law.
    177
    (5)  'Penal institution' means any jail, corr
    ectional institution, or similar facility for the
    178
    detention of violators of state laws or local ordinances and any entity supervising such
    179
    violators placed on parole, probation, or other 
    conditional release and any facility for the
    180
    restrictive  custody  of  children  and  any  entity  supervising  children  who  are  not  in
    181
    restrictive custody but who are accused of or adjudicated for a delinquent act.
    182
    (6)  'Restrictive custody' shall have the same meaning as provided for in Code Section
    183
    15-11-2.
    184
    50-15A-2.
    185
    (a)  Government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the
    186
    burden results from a law, rule, regulation, ordinance, or resolution of general applicability,
    187
    except as provided in subsection (b) of this Code section.
    188
    (b)    Government  may  substantially  burden  a  person's  exercise  of  religion  only  if  it
    189
    demonstrates that application of the burden to the person is:
    190
    (1)  In furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and
    191
    (2)  The least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.
    192
    (c)    A  person  whose  exercise  of  religion  has  been  burdened  in  violation  of  this  Code
    193
    section may assert that violation as a claim 
    or defense in a judicial proceeding and obtain
    194
    a declaratory judgment or injunctive relief against a government.
    195
    50-15A-3.
    196
    In any action or proceeding to enforce a provision of this chapter, the court or tribunal may
    197
    allow the prevailing party, other than government, reasonable attorney's fees and court
    198
    costs.
    199
    AM 25 1379
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    50-15A-4.
    200
    No person having a claim under this chapter shall bring any action against government
    201
    without first giving notice of the claim to such government, in writing, by certified mail or
    202
    statutory overnight delivery, at least 30 days prior to filing such action, setting forth the
    203
    particular discriminatory action alleged to have been taken by the government against such
    204
    person.
    205
    50-15A-5.
    206
    (a)  With respect to interactions which affect the rights or interests of third persons, this
    207
    chapter shall be construed consistent with Article I, Section I, Paragraphs III and IV of the
    208
    Constitution of Georgia and consistent with decisions of the Georgia Supreme Court made
    209
    pursuant to said paragraphs.
    210
    (b)  Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to:
    211
    (1)  Permit invidious discrimination on any grounds prohibited by federal or state law;
    212
    (2)  Apply to penological rules, regulations, conditions, or policies established by a penal
    213
    institution that are reasonably related to the safety and security of incarcerated persons,
    214
    staff, visitors, supervised violators, or the public, or to the maintenance of good order and
    215
    discipline in any penal institution or parole or probation program;
    216
    (3)  Create any rights by an employee against an employer, if such employer is not a
    217
    government; or
    218
    (4)  Afford any protection or relief to a public officer or employee who fails or refuses
    219
    to  perform  his  or  her  official  duties;  provided,  however,  that  this  paragraph  shall  not
    220
    prohibit  any  person  from  holding  any  public  office  or  trust  on  account  of  religious
    221
    opinions, in accordance with Paragraph IV of Section I of Article I of the Constitution.
    "
    222
    SECTION 7.
    223
    Said title is further amended by adding a new Code section to read as follows:
    224
    "
    50-21-38.
    225
    The defense of sovereign immunity is waived as to any claim, counterclaim, cross-claim,
    226
    or third-party claim brought in the courts of 
    this state by an aggrieved individual or faith
    227
    based  organization  seeking  a  declaratory  judgment,  injunctive  relief,  or  reasonable
    228
    attorney's fees and court costs against the state as provided for in Code Section 19-3-11,
    229
    Article 35 of Chapter 1 of Title 10, Code Sec
    tion 34-1-9, or Chapter 15A of this title.  In
    230
    any such case, the applicable provisions of said Code sections, article, or chapter shall
    231
    control to the extent of any conflict with the provisions of this article.
    "
    232
    AM 25 1379
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    SECTION 8.
    233
    This Act shall become effective upon its appr
    oval by the Governor or upon its becoming law
    234
    without such approval.
    235
    SECTION 9.
    236
    All laws and parts of laws in conflict with this Act are repealed.
    237
    Last edited by presence; 03-17-2016 at 01:29 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  3. #2
    Wonder if this applies to joos, mooslums and Buddhists too?

    Druids, krishna's and wiccans?

  4. #3
    The courts, he said, will likely ultimately decide how far the bill goes and whether, for example, it overrides local anti-discrimination laws such as the one in the city of Atlanta.
    Pfffft, much ado about nothing....
    "The Patriarch"

  5. #4
    The Georgia bill, reworked several times by lawmakers amid criticism that earlier versions went too far, declares that no pastor can be forced to perform a same-sex wedding.

    The bill also grants faith-based organizations — churches, religious schools or associations — the right to reject holding events for people or groups of whom they object. Faith-based groups also could not be forced to hire or retain an employee whose beliefs run counter to the organization’s.
    How is that not supportive of liberty?
    I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States...When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

    Andrew Jackson, 1834

  6. #5
    How hypocritical. Religious bigots cry about gays getting special rights, yet this bill they support gives them special rights.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    How hypocritical. Religious bigots cry about gays getting special rights, yet this bill they support gives them special rights.
    What special right?

    My reading It only prevents being forced against their beliefs to provide some service.

    No one should be forced to associate with anyone against their will.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    What special right? My reading It only prevents being forced against their beliefs to provide some service. No one should be forced to associate with anyone against their will.
    Right, NO ONE should be forced to. This bill allows for only religious people to not be forced to.

  9. #8
    Are gay pastors being sued for not performing hetero weddings?
    "The Patriarch"



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  11. #9
    Will atheist cake makers be able to refuse service to religious people?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Will atheist cake makers be able to refuse service to religious people?
    unfortunately, as worded, no

    this applies to "religious officials"

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    unfortunately, as worded, no

    this applies to "religious officials"
    Then as I stated, it's a special rights bill!

  14. #12
    Poll: 58% of “Liberals” Think People Should be Prosecuted For Criticizing Religion
    http://www.infowars.com/poll-58-of-l...zing-religion/

    The poll, conducted by Populus, found that almost half of respondents (46%) think that there are “some things” you should “not be able to say about religion”. This is an increase of 6 per cent on a previous poll in 2011 which asked the same question.

    ...
    If anything is supposed to be beyond the scrutiny of the individual, corruption is guaranteed.

    The reason, in essence, is similar between a drug addict and a dealer. Dealers financially profit by continuously enabling their clients with drugs, and the clients enable the dealers by paying for their products. Basically, a circle-jerk. The term "enabling" characterizes a behavior that prevents the identification of the moral responsibility of the consequences of their action. "I was angry so it was okay that I hurt someone else." By putting any behavior beyond reproach, it is an Enabling action that, on a psychological level, prevents an unbiased self evaluation where no progression past a state of Denial is ever experienced. "I'm a cop and although that kid wasnt armed when I killed him, I did the right thing." Now, just swap out Cop with Pastor or Politician or CEO, and you can see how this cycle of denial can continue forever, and ultimately lead to total moral corruption. The immoral actions wont be limited in scope to just one event. It becomes a justifier for the next immoral action. "He questioned my judgement so I shot him, and that is okay because the last kid I shot was also in the wrong." And that will be followed by a pattern of immoral actions without the necessary consequence to preserve moral equilibrium.

    What is necessary is each person has to have the ability to derive an unbiased evaluation of a religion they are considering adopting. True religious freedom comes with the religious responsibility to see that the faith to be held does not cause the suffering of others. That religious responsibility is something that Sharia Law really appears to be lacking in.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Then as I stated, it's a special rights bill!
    I like the bill, I would prefer to see it apply to any "natural person" rather than any "religious official". But that is a few strokes of the pen away.

    With that small change the sole proprietorship also gets property rights back lost in 1964.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    How hypocritical. Religious bigots cry about gays getting special rights, yet this bill they support gives them special rights.
    Since when is the right to refuse special?

    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Will atheist cake makers be able to refuse service to religious people?
    If they want to, they should be able to.


    I don't like that this issue is always framed as a "religious liberty" issue. It's not. It's simply a liberty issue. The State shouldn't be forcing people to exchange with, associate with, and interact with one another. They shouldn't need "religious reasons" to refuse or say "no." They should be able to refuse and say "no" for whatever reason they want, and they shouldn't be required to explain themselves.
    Last edited by Cabal; 03-17-2016 at 04:20 PM.
    Radical in the sense of being in total, root-and-branch opposition to the existing political system and to the State itself. Radical in the sense of having integrated intellectual opposition to the State with a gut hatred of its pervasive and organized system of crime and injustice. Radical in the sense of a deep commitment to the spirit of liberty and anti-statism that integrates reason and emotion, heart and soul. - M. Rothbard

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Wonder if this applies to joos, mooslums and Buddhists too?
    you mean "Boodhists"?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Right, NO ONE should be forced to. This bill allows for only religious people to not be forced to.
    False:

    Some portions unambiguously apply to all "at their discretion". An atheist doesn't lack 'religious' rights they have not only freedom from religion but they may qualify their beliefs or lack of beliefs as faith-based (like positive atheism versus negative) or even religious based (like atheistic religions).

    I could make certain religious claims on the basis of not having yet been excommunicated. I don't know what they put in holy water, but it has yet to burn me!

    (d) All individuals shall be free to attend or not attend, at their discretion,
    It is not clear to me if a lay person or judge that administers weddings in some 'atheistic' fashion is intended to be excluded:

    All individuals who are ministers of the gospel or clerics or religious practitioners ordained or authorized to solemnize marriages, perform rites, or administer sacraments according to the usages of the denomination shall be free ...
    That's a big $#@!ing net and even a blind lawyer could catch an atheist with it (provided they are officiating a marriage and have any conscience-based objection. Perhaps a D&D player could 'role 20' to see if someone is permitted a marriage in their domain).

    As a promoter of liberty, I don't expect one bill to free the world. As an atheist, this bill doesn't seem necessarily exclusive. It's easy to work around if needed (IMO).


    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    unfortunately, as worded, no

    this applies to "religious officials"
    I disagree. But if you're right, try defining 'religious officials' to necessarily exclude atheists. It can be done, but this bill doesn't do that.



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  20. #17
    I think the notion to deny other people religious belief and practice because they deny your conception of "god" is abhorrent.

    yes, atheists should have religious freedom

    just because someone doesn't believe in "god" does not mean they don't have profound beliefs, asceticisms, a developed and lived system of morality, and personally held religious practices.
    Last edited by presence; 03-17-2016 at 05:07 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Cabal View Post
    Since when is the right to refuse special?
    When it's only applied to certain people.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    When it's only applied to certain people.
    So, you'd like everyone's right to refuse for any reason to be ensured? Good, me too.

    And, in pursuit of this, you want to to make sure the right to refuse is denied to people until it is universal? Not sure that makes much sense. Usually, when you're pursuing equal rights, you don't do this by denying rights, but by expanding them, when they aren't already universal. For instance, the "right to vote" wasn't revoked entirely to achieve eqaulity, it was expanded to women and minorities to achieve equality.

    That you're in favor of denying anyone's rights for any reason is rather alarming, quite frankly.

    The reason anything like this bill even has to exist is because of anti-discrimination laws and judgements were written and passed to deny people the right to refuse in the first place, no?
    Radical in the sense of being in total, root-and-branch opposition to the existing political system and to the State itself. Radical in the sense of having integrated intellectual opposition to the State with a gut hatred of its pervasive and organized system of crime and injustice. Radical in the sense of a deep commitment to the spirit of liberty and anti-statism that integrates reason and emotion, heart and soul. - M. Rothbard

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Cabal View Post
    So, you'd like everyone's right to refuse for any reason to be ensured? Good, me too.
    Yes.

    And, in pursuit of this, you want to to make sure the right to refuse is denied to people until it is universal? Not sure that makes much sense. Usually, when you're pursuing equal rights, you don't do this by denying rights, but by expanding them, when they aren't already universal. For instance, the "right to vote" wasn't revoked entirely to achieve eqaulity, it was expanded to women and minorities to achieve equality.
    Only if it's not the majority that gets these rights first if a group has to get them first. That way, the majority will get this same rights probably by the next day whereas if it was the other way around, the minority would get this same right many decades later.

    That you're in favor of denying anyone's rights for any reason is rather alarming, quite frankly.
    Well I'd rather that not be the case. I just don't like it when a majority legally discriminates against a minority.

    The reason anything like this bill even has to exist is because of anti-discrimination laws and judgements were written and passed to deny people the right to refuse in the first place, no?
    Yes, I wasn't for those laws in the first place.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Only if it's not the majority that gets these rights first if a group has to get them first. That way, the majority will get this same rights probably by the next day whereas if it was the other way around, the minority would get this same right many decades later.
    And how is this less preferable than everyone's right being denied indefinitely? Because that's the alternative, practically speaking. People's right to refuse has been rejected for a long time, and that isn't going to change any time soon unless a certain group gets their foot in the door and then an equality movement follows it. You are never going to ensure rights by denying rights.

    "I'm only for rights if..." is a bizarre statement to make. They're called rights for a reason, you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Well I'd rather that not be the case.
    Whether that is the case or not is entirely up to you. You are voluntarily choosing to prefer denying rights. You are not campaigning for an extension of rights, you are campaigning for a denial of rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by farreri View Post
    Yes, I wasn't for those laws in the first place.
    That's rather irrelevant. They exist, and bills like this are a direct consequence of them.
    Radical in the sense of being in total, root-and-branch opposition to the existing political system and to the State itself. Radical in the sense of having integrated intellectual opposition to the State with a gut hatred of its pervasive and organized system of crime and injustice. Radical in the sense of a deep commitment to the spirit of liberty and anti-statism that integrates reason and emotion, heart and soul. - M. Rothbard

  25. #22
    I think you know the intent of what I'm saying.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Wonder if this applies to joos, mooslums and Buddhists too?

    Druids, krishna's and wiccans?

    It shouldn't, the open practice of any of the above should be suppressed by the State, their buildings destroyed, their proselytizers put on heresy trial, etc.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    It shouldn't, the open practice of any of the above should be suppressed by the State, their buildings destroyed, their proselytizers put on heresy trial, etc.
    And we should all be forced to pay for this?
    "The Patriarch"



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    And we should all be forced to pay for this?
    You'd be paying a lot less under theonomy. A LOT less. That said, Romans 13:6.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    It shouldn't, the open practice of any of the above should be suppressed by the State, their buildings destroyed, their proselytizers put on heresy trial, etc.
    Best I can tell you and your like would met out the same punishment to Catholics too........

    Count me out.

    I'll have no part in religious killings.....

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Best I can tell you and your like would met out the same punishment to Catholics too........

    Count me out.

    I'll have no part in religious killings.....
    Yes, preaching Catholic idolatry and justification by works should be strictly banned.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Yes, preaching Catholic idolatry and justification by works should be strictly banned.
    It's been tried over in Ireland.........

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    It's been tried over in Ireland.........
    Shouldn't teaching the damnation of souls matter more than matters of mere physical life?
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  34. #30
    good jesus

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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