'We are not calling for the slaughter of white people - at least for now'

[r3volution 3.0]

It's true that the Bill of Rights is not firing on all cylinders but it still limits the abuses, Sweden is only limited by the mood of the herd as manipulated by the shepherds.

That's all that limits it here, or in any democracy.

Paper doesn't govern; people do.

[Anti Federalist]

It’s hard to explain, but Sweden is both very free and very oppressive. The thing to understand is that Swedes are extremely conformist, there is a strict framework which you have to operate in, but within that framework it’s a very permissive culture. Try to imagine a socialist Mayfield, if that makes any sense. Or at least that’s how it was.

It’s also a very segregated country, meaning that the problems are mostly contained to certain areas, only more and more areas are being affected as the immigrant population increases. Immigrants start moving into an area-->Swedes start moving out. But it’s still possible to find Mayfields if you have the financial means to do so. For example, we’ve lived in our current home for about ten years, a community of roughly 2,000 people not far from Stockholm, and I have yet to see a single cop car anywhere close to where we live.

A succinct observation all the way around. I find that to be very true as well.

[Kilrain]

I'm sure you know better than I would about Sweden, I'm also sure that specific location means a lot, there is a world of difference between US states and between counties and cities in each state, but Sweden has officially adopted socialism and government without fundamental limits, those have not yet been officially adopted as part of American political philosophy even though the left has been trying for generations.

Oh, I'm not arguing that socialism hasn't had a detrimental effect on Swedes. It absolutely has, in that people are brought up to think they have a right to this and that, and don't feel any obligation to contribute. It did kind of work way back when, though, back when people still had a sense of work ethic and when there was a significant social stigma associated with going on welfare. And even our own socialists used to acknowledge that we were blessed in having a mostly homogeneous population.

[dannno]

Oh, I'm not arguing that socialism hasn't had a detrimental effect on Swedes. It absolutely has, in that people are brought up to think they have a right to this and that, and don't feel any obligation to contribute. It did kind of work way back when, though, back when people still had a sense of work ethic and when there was a significant social stigma associated with going on welfare. And even our own socialists used to acknowledge that we were blessed in having a mostly homogeneous population.

Apparently Swedes were having less kids and so bringing in young refugees was an argument to prop up the aging class who would be retiring.. but of course the refugees end up being a net drain.

[dannno]

It's true that the Bill of Rights is not firing on all cylinders but it still limits the abuses, Sweden is only limited by the mood of the herd as manipulated by the shepherds.

Ya they do not have a free press..

[r3volution 3.0]

Another relevant figure...

Police per 100,000 people:
Sweden 192
US 284

That is because they buy off their people and have trained them to obey orders better, neither one is a good thing.

If the order is "don't murder people," that works fine.

Intentional Homicides per 100,000 people:
Sweden 1.15
US 4.88 (a bit more than Rwanda)

[Swordsmyth]

Another relevant figure...

Police per 100,000 people:
Sweden 192
US 284



If the order is "don't murder people," that works fine.

Intentional Homicides per 100,000 people:
Sweden 1.15
US 4.88 (a bit more than Rwanda)

The Borg have a zero crime rate and therefore have no need for any law enforcement officers.



I refuse to be assimilated.

[dannno]

between 1990 and March 2012, there had been an estimated 1,544 murders on South African farms of which 208 of the victims were Black.^[2] The data for farm attacks is self-reported to a commercial farmer's union, Transvaal Agricultural Union. The last government analysis of farm attack victims by race was conducted in 2001. In their report, the police’s Crime Information Analysis Centre revealed that of the 1,398 people attacked on farms, 61.6% were white, 33.3% were black, 4.4% were Asian and 0.7% were listed as “other”. Statistics of race are no longer collected.^[3] In January 2015, AfriForum reported that there has been an increase in farm attacks and murders in the previous five years.^[4] White poverty is also on the rise.^[5]

White farmers have long complained they are at risk of rising violent crime and that they are ignored by the South African government.^[6] In March 2010, the ruling African National Congress defended the apartheid-era song "Kill the Boer (white farmer)" after a regional high court ruled it as hate speech, after it was sang by ANC youth wing leader Julius Malema.^[7] The ANC promised to stop singing the song in November 2012.^[8]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...n_farm_attacks}

[r3volution 3.0]

between 1990 and March 2012, there had been an estimated 1,544 murders on South African farms of which 208 of the victims were Black

1544 - 208 = 1336

1336 / 22 years = 61/year (rounding up)

The white population of S. Africa over this period was about 4.5 million.

So, this "mass slaughter," "war," or "genocide" consumed on average about 1/1000th of 1% of the white population per year.

At this rate, they'll be exterminated in approximately 77,000 years.

The same wiki page shows that total attacks (no race data) peaked in the late 90s to early 2000s:

Period	Number of murders	Number of reported attacks
1996/1997	84	433
1997/1998	142	490
1998/1999	144	827
1999/2000	144	823
2000/2001	147	908
2001/2002	140	1 069
2002/2003	103	903
2003/2004	88	773
2004/2005	82	694
2005/2006	88	636
2006/2007	86	794
2010/2011	80	532
2011/2012	56	523
2012/2013	59	566
2013/2014	57	517
2014/2015	60	490
2015/2016	49	44

[dannno]

1544 - 208 = 1336

1336 / 22 years = 61/year (rounding up)

The white population of S. Africa over this period was about 4.5 million.

So, this "mass slaughter," "war," or "genocide" consumed on average about 1/1000th of 1% of the white population per year.

At this rate, they'll be exterminated in approximately 77,000 years.

The same wiki page shows that total attacks (no race data) peaked in the late 90s to early 2000s:

Period	Number of murders	Number of reported attacks
1996/1997	84	433
1997/1998	142	490
1998/1999	144	827
1999/2000	144	823
2000/2001	147	908
2001/2002	140	1 069
2002/2003	103	903
2003/2004	88	773
2004/2005	82	694
2005/2006	88	636
2006/2007	86	794
2010/2011	80	532
2011/2012	56	523
2012/2013	59	566
2013/2014	57	517
2014/2015	60	490
2015/2016	49	44

That is a complete distortion from the evidence I presented and what is happening to white farmers in SA.

The statistics were about white FARMERS and you are looking at total population. $#@!ing ridiculous.

Then you don't account for the massive increases that have been reported, since they stopped reporting it in an official capacity..

[AZJoe]

Right, that's your assertion, but I'm asking you to support it with something.
Why are the indices I posted (based on analysis of regulations, taxes, spending, etc in the countries in question) wrong?
What's your counter-evidence?

Which rights are most important is subjective for each individual. I'd rank importance as 1) property rights, 2) free speech, 3) gun rights.

These rankings are inherently subjective. Even the rankings lists that use objective factors are nevertheless subjective in choosing which factors to include and how much to weigh each. You'd have to explain what factors in the index and how it was weighted.

For instance if one is assessing property rights, but completely neglects to weigh taxes in that assessment, its a highly skewed ranking. Sweden is a regular contender for the highest overall tax burden in the world (leading most years) with an overall tax burden reaching 60%. That doesn't bode well for property rights.

As to free speech and gun rights, Sweden gets respectable rankings by worldwide comparison, but still solidly trails US in both. On freedom of speech Sweden does not even make the top ten list. On gun rights Sweden ranks a respectable 11 compared to US 1st place. On the taxation burden Sweden ranks one of the worst places in the entire world. Part of the US ranking on tax burden is probably due to the US government's heavy reliance on debt funding enabled by Fed money creation.

On the flip side, the US is currently the world leader for total surveillance, with a surveillance state that would make even the Stasi or Stalin's brigade envious. The US government leads the world in total gross debt by government numbers (and using GAAP is off the charts by any metric). The US leads the world with imprisonment rates of of its population. For domestic propaganda the US government is a contender with any other nation, but probably leads in sophistication of its propaganda. For military aggressiveness, covert operations, interference in foreign nations the US has been the worst offender for at least the past 50 years. On corruptions perception, Sweden ranks 4th least corrupt and the USA 18th least corrupt. In level of actual corruption Washington probably ranks far worse.

Bottom line, while the lists of ranking are fun for esoteric dialogue, it still comes down to personal preferences and choice.

[r3volution 3.0]

The Borg have a zero crime rate and therefore have no need for any law enforcement officers.

I refuse to be assimilated.

Sure...

Point of all this is that, contra the claims of anti-immigrant propaganda outlets, Sweden has not become some kind of post-apocalyptic hellscape.

[r3volution 3.0]

That is a complete distortion from the evidence I presented and what is happening to white farmers in SA.

The statistics were about white FARMERS and you are looking at total population. $#@!ing ridiculous.

Uh, dannno, you posted the data about the number of murders, not I.

If you have additional data about additional murders, feel free to post it.

Otherwise, that's all I have to work with, isn't it?

Then you don't account for the massive increases that have been reported, since they stopped reporting it in an official capacity..

Source please

[dannno]

Uh, dannno, you posted the data about the number of murders, not I.

No, I posted how many FARMERS were murdered, then you compared that to the total population. That is intellectually dishonest.

I originally stated white FARMERS were being slaughtered in masse, which they are, and the number of farmers is not anywhere near the total population even on that which we have official data for.

If you have additional data about additional murders, feel free to post it.

Otherwise, that's all I have to work with, isn't it?



Source please

I've already posted it, but you are ignoring most of it.

[The Northbreather]

The Borg have a zero crime rate and therefore have no need for any law enforcement officers.



I refuse to be assimilated.

Resistance is Futile

[Swordsmyth]

Resistance is Futile

Perhaps but it is infinitely more fun than submission.

They'll never take me alive.

[r3volution 3.0]

Which rights are most important is subjective for each individual. I'd rank importance as 1) property rights, 2) free speech, 3) gun rights.

These rankings are inherently subjective. Even the rankings lists that use objective factors are nevertheless subjective in choosing which factors to include and how much to weigh each. You'd have to explain what factors in the index and how it was weighted.

For instance if one is assessing property rights, but completely neglects to weigh taxes in that assessment, its a highly skewed ranking. Sweden is a regular contender for the highest overall tax burden in the world (leading most years) with an overall tax burden reaching 60%. That doesn't bode well for property rights.

As to free speech and gun rights, Sweden gets respectable rankings by worldwide comparison, but still solidly trails US in both. On freedom of speech Sweden does not even make the top ten list. On gun rights Sweden ranks a respectable 11 compared to US 1st place. On the taxation burden Sweden ranks one of the worst places in the entire world. Part of the US ranking on tax burden is probably due to the US government's heavy reliance on debt funding enabled by Fed money creation.

On the flip side, the US is currently the world leader for total surveillance, with a surveillance state that would make even the Stasi or Stalin's brigade envious. The US government leads the world in total gross debt by government numbers (and using GAAP is off the charts by any metric). The US leads the world with imprisonment rates of of its population. For domestic propaganda the US government is a contender with any other nation, but probably leads in sophistication of its propaganda. For military aggressiveness, covert operations, interference in foreign nations the US has been the worst offender for at least the past 50 years. On corruptions perception, Sweden ranks 4th least corrupt and the USA 18th least corrupt. In level of actual corruption Washington probably ranks far worse.

Bottom line, while the lists of ranking are fun for esoteric dialogue, it still comes down to personal preferences and choice.

The weightings for the indices are subjective, yes, as are the weightings which people are using informally in their own evaluations, but that doesn't make them meaningless. It's similar to GDP. The problem of cardinal value means that GDP cannot really be a measure of "total utility," because there's no such thing, but it does in some way approximate what we mean by "prosperity," as evidence by the fact that the countries which we all subjectively recognize as being very poor are always on the opposite end of the GDP/capita spectrum from the countries which we all subjectively recognize as being very rich. Likewise, there's no common unit of measure for liberty, so the various 'types' have to be subjectively weighted in these indices, yet the results generally correspond to our common understanding of liberty (Venezuela and Singapore, for instance, always end up on opposite ends of the rankings, where I'm sure we'd all agree they belong).

The advantage of these indices (especially when pooled together) is that, weighting aside, they're based on a lot more data than any of us have. How many people here can speak intelligently about the details of Swedish law in all the relevant areas? If Swordsmyth took the months needed to gather all that data himself and put it together according to his own subjective weighting method to create the Swordsmyth Economic Freedom Index, the result would probably be different than Heritage' index, but not that different; and the Swordsmyth Economic Freedom Index would probably have more in common with Heritage's index than with Swordsmyth's WAG. Likewise, imagine that, to evaluate how rich a country is, you can either (a) look at GDP/capita, (b) spend an afternoon in the country, or (c) spend a year in the country. If C isn't an option, you'll probably get a better idea from A than from B (A will be closer than B to what C would have been had you done it).

[r3volution 3.0]

No, I posted how many FARMERS were murdered, then you compared that to the total population. That is intellectually dishonest.

No, it's using the only data you've bothered to provide.

If you want more accurate per capita data, post either the total number of white murders or the total number of white farmers.

...or don't, and continue with the baseless assertions.

Your call. I'm not interesting in making your case for you or trying to prove a negative.

[dannno]

No, it's using the only data you've bothered to provide.

If you want more accurate per capita data, post either the total number of white murders or the total number of white farmers.

...or don't, and continue with the baseless assertions.

Your call. I'm not interesting in making your case for you or trying to prove a negative.

I think most people are intelligent enough and have enough experience debating you personally or watching you debate to know which side is correct, especially if they have viewed the entirety of the evidence unlike you.

If you want to refute it, do your own homework assignments, but try harder than last time.

[r3volution 3.0]

I think most people are intelligent enough and have enough experience debating you personally or watching you debate to know which side is correct, especially if they have viewed the entirety of the evidence unlike you.

If you want to refute it, do your own homework assignments, but try harder than last time.

That'll work.

No, it's using the only data you've bothered to provide.

If you want more accurate per capita data, post either the total number of white murders or the total number of white farmers.

...or don't, and continue with the baseless assertions.

Your call. I'm not interesting in making your case for you or trying to prove a negative.

[AZJoe]

The weightings for the indices are subjective, yes, as are the weightings which people are using informally in their own evaluations, .............

Correct. thank for agreeing.

Which rights are most important is subjective for each individual. I'd rank importance as 1) property rights, 2) free speech, 3) gun rights.

These rankings are inherently subjective. Even the rankings lists that use objective factors are nevertheless subjective in choosing which factors to include and how much to weigh each. You'd have to explain what factors in the index and how it was weighted.

For instance if one is assessing property rights, but completely neglects to weigh taxes in that assessment, its a highly skewed ranking. Sweden is a regular contender for the highest overall tax burden in the world (leading most years) with an overall tax burden reaching 60%. That doesn't bode well for property rights.

As to free speech and gun rights, Sweden gets respectable rankings by worldwide comparison, but still solidly trails US in both. On freedom of speech Sweden does not even make the top ten list. On gun rights Sweden ranks a respectable 11 compared to US 1st place. On the taxation burden Sweden ranks one of the worst places in the entire world. Part of the US ranking on tax burden is probably due to the US government's heavy reliance on debt funding enabled by Fed money creation.

On the flip side, the US is currently the world leader for total surveillance, with a surveillance state that would make even the Stasi or Stalin's brigade envious. The US government leads the world in total gross debt by government numbers (and using GAAP is off the charts by any metric). The US leads the world with imprisonment rates of of its population. For domestic propaganda the US government is a contender with any other nation, but probably leads in sophistication of its propaganda. For military aggressiveness, covert operations, interference in foreign nations the US has been the worst offender for at least the past 50 years. On corruptions perception, Sweden ranks 4th least corrupt and the USA 18th least corrupt. In level of actual corruption Washington probably ranks far worse.

Bottom line, while the lists of ranking are fun for esoteric dialogue, it still comes down to personal preferences and choice.

[timosman]

Perhaps but it is infinitely more fun than submission.

They'll never take me alive.

Reported.

[r3volution 3.0]

Correct. thank for agreeing.

Yea, I wasn't agreeing with you...

I guess the you didn't understand the words you were complaining about in your negrep:

"Too many words to simply say you agree that that it comes down to personal preferences."

Now I have nothing further to say to you.

[Ender]

Sweden is a socialist hellhole.

Been there? My friends say that's BS.

[Madison320]

No, it's using the only data you've bothered to provide.

If you want more accurate per capita data, post either the total number of white murders or the total number of white farmers.

...or don't, and continue with the baseless assertions.

Your call. I'm not interesting in making your case for you or trying to prove a negative.

I'm kind of in the middle here. On the one hand there's a subtle idea being expressed in this thread that somehow the solution is to have "whites only". Personally I think that's a stupid answer. If that were the only factor, it would need to be explained what went wrong in Russia and Germany and a lot of other places. I think as libertarians we can come up with something more intelligent that that.

On the other hand you seem to be implying that white farmers are not being murdered at a high rate in South Africa, that's obviously wrong. Obviously those crimes are being underreported. The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming. For one thing it happened not too long ago in Zimbabwe and South Africa has a similar situation. There's tons of youtube videos of families that have been murdered. They just voted to expropriate without compensation. That alone should be enough evidence that the situation for white farmers is incredibly dangerous right now. The crime rate in general is off the charts for South Africa, it doesn't take a genius to figure that its got to be worse if you're a hated minority.

[r3volution 3.0]

I'm kind of in the middle here. On the one hand there's a subtle idea being expressed in this thread that somehow the solution is to have "whites only". Personally I think that's a stupid answer. If that were the only factor, it would need to be explained what went wrong in Russia and Germany and a lot of other places. I think as libertarians we can come up with something more intelligent that that.

One would certainly hope so.

On the other hand you seem to be implying that white farmers are not being murdered at a high rate in South Africa, that's obviously wrong. Obviously those crimes are being underreported. The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming. For one thing it happened not too long ago in Zimbabwe and South Africa has a similar situation. There's tons of youtube videos of families that have been murdered. They just voted to expropriate without compensation. That alone should be enough evidence that the situation for white farmers is incredibly dangerous right now. The crime rate in general is off the charts for South Africa, it doesn't take a genius to figure that its got to be worse if you're a hated minority.

I'm not denying that there are racially motivated murders of whites (of course there are), or that whites suffer a higher than average murder rate (though I also don't know that that's true, since there's more to consider than racially motivated violence [e.g. wealthier people tend to be murdered less frequently in general, and I'd assume whites S. Africans have above average incomes]).

My only point here is that there is (or at least has been presented by no one here) no evidence to justify claims of "mass slaughter," "genocide" or "war," and that those hyperbolic claims are part of a deliberate effort to build the case for the nationalistic policies (ala 'whites only') that so many people are promoting.

[Madison320]

I'm not denying that there are racially motivated murders of whites (of course there are), or that whites suffer a higher than average murder rate (though I also don't know that that's true, since there's more to consider than racially motivated violence [e.g. wealthier people tend to be murdered less frequently in general, and I'd assume whites S. Africans have above average incomes]).

My only point here is that there is (or at least has been presented by no one here) no evidence to justify claims of "mass slaughter," "genocide" or "war," and that those hyperbolic claims are part of a deliberate effort to build the case for the nationalistic policies (ala 'whites only') that so many people are promoting.

Obviously it's not mass slaughter, but it's pretty bad. The fact is that things are much worse for both races now. That's doesn't mean the answer is to go back to apartheid, but it provides more data on which to try to figure out a better solution.

[r3volution 3.0]

Obviously it's not mass slaughter, but it's pretty bad. The fact is that things are much worse for both races now. That's doesn't mean the answer is to go back to apartheid, but it provides more data on which to try to figure out a better solution.

Agreed

[Swordsmyth]

I'm kind of in the middle here. On the one hand there's a subtle idea being expressed in this thread that somehow the solution is to have "whites only". Personally I think that's a stupid answer. If that were the only factor, it would need to be explained what went wrong in Russia and Germany and a lot of other places. I think as libertarians we can come up with something more intelligent that that.

On the other hand you seem to be implying that white farmers are not being murdered at a high rate in South Africa, that's obviously wrong. Obviously those crimes are being underreported. The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming. For one thing it happened not too long ago in Zimbabwe and South Africa has a similar situation. There's tons of youtube videos of families that have been murdered. They just voted to expropriate without compensation. That alone should be enough evidence that the situation for white farmers is incredibly dangerous right now. The crime rate in general is off the charts for South Africa, it doesn't take a genius to figure that its got to be worse if you're a hated minority.

The problem is a cultural one, race just happen to correlate, SA should have split like we need CALExit etc.

[dannno]

Obviously it's not mass slaughter, but it's pretty bad. The fact is that things are much worse for both races now. That's doesn't mean the answer is to go back to apartheid, but it provides more data on which to try to figure out a better solution.

Did you see the video I posted about Lauren Southern's documentary? What do you think is the best evidence we have to determine the severity? The whole point of the video is it is not being reported on, and it is now happening at a staggering rate. I know Rev 3 has not seen it so he cannot really judge the situation, what credentials or documentation do you have?

On the one hand there's a subtle idea being expressed in this thread that somehow the solution is to have "whites only".

Who do you think believes that?

I don't know what the solution is, but to ignore it and not talk about it is clearly not the solution.