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Thread: Swiss ban the burka - did Liberty win or lose?

  1. #1

    Swiss ban the burka - did Liberty win or lose?

    So The Libertarian Republic (Austin Petersen's site) had an article on this subject this AM by Bric Butler asking "Did Liberty win or lose" with this ban? They wanted some discussion on it.... and were complaining people were commenting without reading the article. I read the article and gave it some thought and came up with a reply, but they deleted the topic before I could post.

    They removed the Facebook post (and comments obviously) on it (https://www.facebook.com/libertarian...51130925037578), and then 15 minutes later removed the article off their website (http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/sw...y-win-or-lose/) too.

    Here was the article that Bric was referencing when he wrote his article.

    Burka ban for Muslims enforced in Switzerland with fines of as much as £8,000

    A new burka ban has been enforced in a Swiss canton, with two people already being fined for defying it.

    A Swiss woman, who has converted to Islam, and a French-Algerian businessman publically opposed the ban in the city of Locarno in the canton of Tessin were both fined when the new rule came into effect last Friday.

    Anyone caught wearing a veil in the canton, which is Italian speaking and predominently Roman Catholic, can reportedly be fined up to €9,200 (£7,890).
    Nora Illi, a member of the Islamic Central Council Switzerland, purposefully defied the ban last Friday and was fined by police officers.

    ... (continues)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/burka-ban-for-muslims-enforced-in-switzerland-with-fines-of-up-t/


    Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on if the ban is a win for liberty or a loss? Is it religious persecution, or? I thought it was a complex issue and was interesting to look at from different angles.
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.



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  3. #2
    IS something banned? Then liberty is lost.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    IS something banned? Then liberty is lost.
    Is it? On the surface, I would agree. But I think it goes deeper than that.
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    IS something banned? Then liberty is lost.
    Quickest /thread ever.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    Is it? On the surface, I would agree. But I think it goes deeper than that.
    Is the State extracting more revenue? Liberty is lost. How does it go deeper?
    They confronted me in the day of my calamity, but the Lord was my support.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    IS something banned? Then liberty is lost.
    This. ^^^

    Quote Originally Posted by staerker View Post
    Is the State extracting more revenue? Liberty is lost. How does it go deeper?
    My question, as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by staerker View Post
    Is the State extracting more revenue? Liberty is lost. How does it go deeper?
    Is the act of banning the burka, indirectly helping to preserve Liberty?

    If something is a threat to Liberty, then in order to preserve Liberty shouldn't action be taken against the threat? In fighting for Liberty, one is pitted against the State. If religion is trying to take away Liberty, doesn't the same apply?

    I feel people deserve the right to Liberty and Freedom, and to worship as they see fit. As long as it does not infringe upon the rights of another. But I feel that if something is an enemy of Liberty, one must be vigilant in fighting against that threat, whatever form it takes, to preserve said Liberty. If allowing someone else to have their Liberty is allowing a potential threat to your own Liberty, it is short sighted to allow it to begin with.

    Here were my thoughts I was going to post this AM on TLR post before it was deleted. I am not sure if these thoughts are fully correct or not, as I am still working through it all.

    This is for sure a complex and many faceted issue.

    Liberty is freedom to do what you want and freedom from arbitrary controls. If the women chooses to wear a burka, and now cannot, this law has removed that freedom for her, even if the burka is a sign of oppression. So Liberty lost. If she is forced into wearing it in public by her religion or family, then that is an issue in and of itself that she needs to address. But making laws to ban it to address those personal/religious issues is not the right step.

    However, in addition to infringing upon a right of another, my rights to Liberty need to be tempered with other people’s rights to Liberty as well. And does allowing one to wear the burka infringe upon other people’s Liberty? To allow for an environment where people can be anonymous at the basic level of recognition in public - does this create a threat or situation leading to possible safety issues? Or the illusion of a safety issue? Some might argue it does, given some of the attacks that have transpired in association (directly or indirectly) with the burka, or Muslim faith in general (guilty by association.) But does someone walking down a street with an AR-15 strapped to their back create an illusion of a safety issue for others? (I think it enhances safety of others, but again, some might not see it that way.)

    Where is the line for personal freedom tempered with a public environment that is conducive to everyone’s right to freedom and Liberty. Does this mean wearing a hoodie with a face covering is also banned, or just the religious garb? People who hide in public have traditionally done so because they do not want to be identified as they have ill will in mind - a ski mask to rob a bank, a handkerchief over the nose and mouth before robbing a stage coach. But with the ever expanding police state and Orwellian surveillance, should one be allowed a right to privacy in public without being monitored and tracked by the state? So, should visibly covering ones identity be permissible, without concern of ill will? (Obviously the PtB will rule it illegal, as they do want to identify and track.)

    I feel, at the end of the day, as the world becomes more of a melting pot, for better or worse, cultural clashes will test ones perspective of Liberty and therefore tolerance level. That aside, I think a bigger issue is the motive behind the act of wearing a burka. And in this case it is strongly representational of the Muslim religious belief. And while many may argue that being a Muslim is a peaceful religion, and a majority of Muslims appear to be; there are many, many statistics and acts that prove otherwise. And yes, there are some Christian extremist too, but statistically speaking that number of Christian extremism is very small compared to the Muslim statistics showing agreement with the fundamental hard core principles of radical Muslims, and carrying out, or at least supporting acts of violence – watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk

    So in evaluating the bigger picture, I think it goes well beyond just the burka, and one needs to look at the actions of the Muslim religion at large as it stands today and decide if a locale wants to accept that belief system into their community, or not. As banning the burka is just poking a twig at the much larger bonfire. Either allow the burka and be tolerant of all things Muslim, or take the much bigger step and disallow the entire Muslim belief system in your community. Too radical? I know that this statement will upset many, and I am sorry for that. I am all for freedom of religion, but I draw the line when that religious belief system at large embraces violence, hatred, persecution, and/or restrictions of freedoms and rights - MY freedoms and rights - MY Liberty (and yes, even Christians who promote any of these beliefs in the name of “Christianity”), as therefore that religion as a whole violates other people’s right to Liberty. Being tolerant to a religion that wants to restrict Liberty, is counterproductive to the advancement of Liberty. And if a religion is not a friend of Liberty, then the religion should not be accepted by Liberty. If the goal of the religion is to eliminate Liberty, then Liberty needs to fight that tyranny, just as it fights the tyranny of the state. And since it has been shown that statistically speaking the Muslim faith wants Sharia law everywhere, through force or adoption, and that law and the religion itself are not a friend of Liberty and Freedom, I say: In the name of Liberty - allow the burka, but ban the Muslim religion. Probably impossible, but I think it is basically what it comes down to. To be tolerant of something that wants to eliminate the very concept that allows for the tolerance (Liberty), is fool hardy.
    I am not set on that answer, and I welcome constructive feedback on it. But my current thinking is, if by allowing someone else to exercise their Liberty, who has the ultimate goal of taking your own Liberty away, why would you do it?

    If any of you feel that the Muslim religion does not want to ultimately take away Liberty and freedom, I welcome your feedback.

    Don't flame, I am honestly trying to look deeper at this issue.
    Last edited by Thor; 07-09-2016 at 02:42 PM.
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

  9. #8
    Swiss ban the burka - did Liberty win or lose?
    Not a good question. A ban and a fine are both losses of "liberty".

    It would be more appropriate to ask if this reduction in liberty is worth it? What is gained, what it lost? What purpose does it serve? "Liberty" as a pure concept is not the only consideration.

    One might guess that the purpose is to counter those who would like to force burkas on all women. Forcing burkas on all women is another loss of liberty.

    Is a ban on female circumcision worth the loss of liberty? How about a ban on male circumcision?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    Is the act of banning the burka, indirectly helping to preserve Liberty?

    If something is a threat to Liberty, then in order to preserve Liberty shouldn't action be taken against the threat? In fighting for Liberty, one is pitted against the State. If religion is trying to take away Liberty, doesn't the same apply?

    I feel people deserve the right to Liberty and Freedom, and to worship as they see fit. As long as it does not infringe upon the rights of another. But I feel that if something is an enemy of Liberty, one must be vigilant in fighting against that threat, whatever form it takes, to preserve said Liberty. If allowing someone else to have their Liberty is allowing a potential threat to your own Liberty, it is short sighted to allow it to begin with.

    Here were my thoughts I was going to post this AM on TLR post before it was deleted. I am not sure if these thoughts are fully correct or not, as I am still working through it all.

    I am not set on that answer, and I welcome constructive feedback on it. But my current thinking is, if by allowing someone else to exercise their Liberty, who has the ultimate goal of taking your own Liberty away, why would you do it?

    If any of you feel that the Muslim religion does not want to ultimately take away Liberty and freedom, I welcome your feedback.

    Don't flame, I am honestly trying to look deeper at this issue.
    The burka represents the far end of a spectrum. The other end is total nudity. Banning total nudity is a loss of liberty that is accepted (often welcomed) almost everywhere.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Not a good question. A ban and a fine are both losses of "liberty".

    It would be more appropriate to ask if this reduction in liberty is worth it? What is gained, what it lost? What purpose does it serve? "Liberty" as a pure concept is not the only consideration.

    One might guess that the purpose is to counter those who would like to force burkas on all women. Forcing burkas on all women is another loss of liberty.

    Is a ban on female circumcision worth the loss of liberty? How about a ban on male circumcision?
    I did not craft the original question. And why I said the answer was multi faceted. And agreed, if the ultimate goal is forcing burkas on all, then it is wise to stop it early, to preserve liberty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The burka represents the far end of a spectrum. The other end is total nudity. Banning total nudity is a loss of liberty that is accepted (often welcomed) almost everywhere.
    But total nudity is not representational of a religious belief that wants to eliminate Liberty. But why I said "I say: In the name of Liberty - allow the burka, but ban the Muslim religion"
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    Is the act of banning the burka, indirectly helping to preserve Liberty?
    No.

    If something is a threat to Liberty, then in order to preserve Liberty shouldn't action be taken against the threat?
    I think you answered your own question right there vvv. Aren't you infringing on a Muslim's liberty when you sic the government on them for wearing a outfit you find unacceptable? Where does it end at that point? Leggings? Saggy britches? (there's a thread on that, I can't remember where they were trying to ban 'em)

    In fighting for Liberty, one is pitted against the State.
    Indeed.^^^

    If religion is trying to take away liberty, doesn't the same apply?
    As long as no one is forcing you to join their religion, it's none of your business. That's my opinion.

    I feel people deserve the right to Liberty and Freedom, and to worship as they see fit. As long as it does not infringe upon the rights of another. But I feel that if something is an enemy of Liberty, one must be vigilant in fighting against that threat, whatever form it takes, to preserve said Liberty. If allowing someone else to have their Liberty is allowing a potential threat to your own Liberty, it is short sighted to allow it to begin with.
    A lot of groups are potential threats to liberty. If you go after all of them you're going to find yourself living in a police state.

    Here were my thoughts I was going to post this AM on TLR post before it was deleted. I am not sure if these thoughts are fully correct or not, as I am still working through it all.



    I am not set on that answer, and I welcome constructive feedback on it. But my current thinking is, if by allowing someone else to exercise their Liberty, who has the ultimate goal of taking your own liberty away, why would you do it?
    How do I know every Burka wearing woman wants to take away my liberty? Lets just say for arguments sake they do. I would fight them in the court of public opinion. If they tried to make it law, I would fight that, too. I'd probably end up in jail (or dead) but it'd be better than wearing a Burka in the GA heat.


    If any of you feel that the Muslim religion does not want to ultimately take away Liberty and freedom, I welcome your feedback.
    I surely believe some do but I think most just want to be left alone. I feel the same way about all religions and I also think there are militant atheists who want freedom from religion.

    Don't flame, I am honestly trying to look deeper at this issue.
    I can see that. It's hard not to want to choke the $#@! out of people sometimes. Seriously, though, siccing the state on people for having views you disagree with (no matter how noble the reason) is just wrong, IMO.

    I couldn't help but think of this quote when I was reading your post.

    “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
    ~ Friedrich Nietzsche
    Good luck with your mental exercise!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    I did not craft the original question. And why I said the answer was multi faceted. And agreed, if the ultimate goal is forcing burkas on all, then it is wise to stop it early, to preserve liberty.



    But total nudity is not representational of a religious belief that wants to eliminate Liberty. But why I said "I say: In the name of Liberty - allow the burka, but ban the Muslim religion"
    Who get's to be the one that defines what is or is not "Liberty?" And, for the record I have known and know Muslims that do not seek to eliminate "Liberty." They are American Muslims and proud to be a one. Their women don't wear burkas but they do wear head scarfs and they do so by choice.

  15. #13
    banning burkas is kind of like banning bras

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

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    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  16. #14
    Liberty doesn't just apply to the things you like.
    Stop believing stupid things

  17. #15
    lolol. Take a look at various European countries now. They were all politically-correct too. Now, they've all but lost their nations, their culture and their way of life.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    lolol. Take a look at various European countries now. They were all politically-correct too. Now, they've all but lost their nations, their culture and their way of life.
    Omigerds! The jihadists have taken all of Europe and imposed Sharia law! Now they are building a great Armada and headed to our shores! Hide yo kids, hide yo wife, and hide yo husband 'cause they rapin' e'rybody out here.




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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    So in evaluating the bigger picture, I think it goes well beyond just the burka, and one needs to look at the actions of the Muslim religion at large as it stands today and decide if a locale wants to accept that belief system into their community, or not. As banning the burka is just poking a twig at the much larger bonfire. Either allow the burka and be tolerant of all things Muslim, or take the much bigger step and disallow the entire Muslim belief system in your community. Too radical? I know that this statement will upset many, and I am sorry for that. I am all for freedom of religion, but I draw the line when that religious belief system at large embraces violence, hatred, persecution, and/or restrictions of freedoms and rights - MY freedoms and rights - MY Liberty (and yes, even Christians who promote any of these beliefs in the name of “Christianity”), as therefore that religion as a whole violates other people’s right to Liberty. Being tolerant to a religion that wants to restrict Liberty, is counterproductive to the advancement of Liberty. And if a religion is not a friend of Liberty, then the religion should not be accepted by Liberty. If the goal of the religion is to eliminate Liberty, then Liberty needs to fight that tyranny, just as it fights the tyranny of the state. And since it has been shown that statistically speaking the Muslim faith wants Sharia law everywhere, through force or adoption, and that law and the religion itself are not a friend of Liberty and Freedom, I say: In the name of Liberty - allow the burka, but ban the Muslim religion. Probably impossible, but I think it is basically what it comes down to. To be tolerant of something that wants to eliminate the very concept that allows for the tolerance (Liberty), is fool hardy. .
    The distinction between thought and action needs to be made.

    I am not in favor of "outlawing" Statist ideologies. Although their spread threatens the existence of liberty, they are not by themselves aggressive. That does not necessarily imply "tolerating" them, but simply that force should not be initiated.
    They confronted me in the day of my calamity, but the Lord was my support.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tywysog Cymru View Post
    Liberty doesn't just apply to the things you like.
    But if something whose goal is to take away my Liberty, then it is work fighting for to preserve it.
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    But if something whose goal is to take away my Liberty, then it is work fighting for to preserve it.
    ,

    So your position is we need to ban tyranny as well as any style of dress that might be construed as promoting tyranny?

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by staerker View Post
    The distinction between thought and action needs to be made.

    I am not in favor of "outlawing" Statist ideologies. Although their spread threatens the existence of liberty, they are not by themselves aggressive. That does not necessarily imply "tolerating" them, but simply that force should not be initiated.
    But letting Statist ideologies spread, at a tipping point of being able to control the masses, it does become aggressive. As does Muslim beliefs and Sharia law where it has taken over.

    At which point is Liberty worth fighting for? After it has been taken away? Or before? If you have a house, do you stop termites at the first sign of them, or even try and prevent them, or what until the house is infested and to the point of collapse before you act?

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    ,

    So your position is we need to ban tyranny as well as any style of dress that might be construed as promoting tyranny?
    Not the dress, the tyranny itself. Why invite it if/when it's goal, as it has been stated, is to destroy and take away Liberty and Freedom? No matter which religion or group it may be. If it is detrimental to everyone having freedom and liberty, by it's very nature, because it wishes to eliminate that freedom, shouldn't we stop it rather than welcome it? Being pacifist and minding your own business works when everyone else does the same. But when others are aggressive to remove your Liberty, one must make a stand to preserve it.
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post


    Not the dress, the tyranny itself.
    But you're seemingly implying that banning the dress will somehow equate to a ban of tyranny.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    they've all but lost their nations, their culture and their way of life.
    Do they need help finding them? I'm pretty good with a map, and it doesn't seem like it would be all that hard to find a country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    But letting Statist ideologies spread, at a tipping point of being able to control the masses, it does become aggressive. As does Muslim beliefs and Sharia law where it has taken over.

    At which point is Liberty worth fighting for? After it has been taken away? Or before? If you have a house, do you stop termites at the first sign of them, or even try and prevent them, or what until the house is infested and to the point of collapse before you act?



    Not the dress, the tyranny itself. Why invite it if/when it's goal, as it has been stated, is to destroy and take away Liberty and Freedom? No matter which religion or group it may be. If it is detrimental to everyone having freedom and liberty, by it's very nature, because it wishes to eliminate that freedom, shouldn't we stop it rather than welcome it? Being pacifist and minding your own business works when everyone else does the same. But when others are aggressive to remove your Liberty, one must make a stand to preserve it.
    Be careful when comparing those you do not agree with to insects. This de-humanizes them. Termites are not human and are thus incapable of change. Americans have not been particularly welcoming of untold millions of immigrants in our history. But, none of the harbingers of loss of liberty and the "American way" have come to fruition. If anything those immigrants adapted and made America a better place. IMHO. I'm talking about the "melting-pot", not what the government has become. Simply wearing a Burka is not an aggression on you. No more than wearing a Crucifix is to me. I know there are many Christians that would like to deny me liberty in many things. But, I would never wish they be excluded in this country.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    But you're seemingly implying that banning the dress will somehow equate to a ban of tyranny.
    You did not read what I posted.
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.



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  29. #25
    Regarding the Burka. My ole ladies niece is in Jordan right now. She is there through a Christian organization called ELIC. She teaches English. She is fluent in French and Arabic and worked in Africa last year teaching French. When she enters the Syrian refugee camp to teach English she wears a Burka. She doesn't have a problem with this. She feels that "in a way it is liberating." She is quite a lovely young gal whose mother is of Mediterranean decent, dark hair, eyes and skin. She feels the Burka creates a barrier to her physical beauty and allows the students to focus on the subject. And contrary to information L.E. and others would like to spread she has not been gang raped by these demonic refugees.

    This is the org. if you would like to donate or get involved. http://www.elic.org/who-we-are/
    Last edited by phill4paul; 07-09-2016 at 05:20 PM.

  30. #26
    I think burka interferes with natural integration of migrants. By the way, there is a huge difference between burqa and hijab. Hijab is just a headscarf. Burqa is covered head to toe with only the eye slits. Hijab is relatively common in the states. Burqa is a lot less common... maybe seen it once or twice living in california.

    It interferes with communication and integration of people. By you wearing it, you create a barrier from others. This will make you feel isolated.. thus feel that everyone is against you/segregated you. Then this will lead to you to have a higher chance to seek out things like radicalism and join groups like ISIS.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard13mm View Post
    I think burka interferes with natural integration of migrants. By the way, there is a huge difference between burqa and hijab. Hijab is just a headscarf. Burqa is covered head to toe with only the eye slits. Hijab is relatively common in the states. Burqa is a lot less common... maybe seen it once or twice living in california.

    It interferes with communication and integration of people. By you wearing it, you create a barrier from others. This will make you feel isolated.. thus feel that everyone is against you/segregated you. Then this will lead to you to have a higher chance to seek out things like radicalism and join groups like ISIS.
    Have you worn one? A Burka? You've seen one or two but do you know anyone that has ever worn one?

  32. #28
    I think Dr. Paul would be chagrined to find anybody on a site named after him supporting a law that keeps people from practicing their nonviolent, personal, religious beliefs in the way they choose.

  33. #29
    Choosing to wear a burka (freedom of choice as well as freedom of religion) is a personal expression and does not impose ones values or religion on anybody else. If somebody does not wish to wear a burka, they do not have to. They too have freedom of choice. If you ban wearing a burka, you are imposing your values on another person- depriving them of that freedom/ liberty.

    There was a time in this country when women weren't allowed to wear pants. It was a major faux pas if a woman even showed as much as her ankle.

    You try to claim that the ban is somehow protecting freedoms when it is doing the opposite. Our founders felt it was important enough to be the first thing they put in the Constitution (after all that stuff about diving up government powers).

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    The canton is in the very southern part of Switzerland and is the only canton where Italian is the official language. Population is about 350,000.

    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 07-09-2016 at 06:20 PM.

  34. #30
    Did anyone bother to watch the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk
    I have seen through it all... the system is against us. ALL OF IT.

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