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Thread: The German military is currently unavailable

  1. #1

    The German military is currently unavailable

    Try to ignore the Russia spin, the "refugees" are the real threat.

    Three years ago, Germany's military made headlines when it used broomsticks instead of machine guns during a NATO exercise because of a shortage of equipment. The lack of real weapons in the European Union’s most populous nation was seen as symptomatic of how underfunded its military has long been. One Russian annexation later, if anything, the state of affairs has only gotten worse, according to the parliamentary commissioner for the country’s armed forces.
    He has now reached the conclusion that the German military is virtually “not deployable for collective defense.” Independent commissioner Hans-Peter Bartels also indicated in an interview that Germany was unprepared for the possibility of a larger conflict even though smaller operations abroad may still be possible.

    In October, reports emerged that not a single German military submarine was operational — at a time when Russian submarine operations in the Baltic Sea were raising new concerns. Bundeswehr pilots are using choppers owned by a private automobile club to practice because so many of their own helicopters are in need of repair. And about half of all Leopard 2s — the tank which is most common in the Bundeswehr — were out of order as recently as November, which left the country with only 95 tanks of that type. By comparison, Russia is believed to have over 20,000 combat tanks, even though it is not known how many of them are operational.

    Germany is also still in the process of transitioning from a conscription-based model to a more professional military that relies exclusively on volunteers. Conscription was only abolished here about seven years ago, at a time when other E.U. countries were considering reintroducing it. But the Bundeswehr has so far been unable to fully fill its ranks with volunteers, and critics fear that equipment shortages could deter even more from joining.
    More at: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8b867fe8f2ed
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #2
    Now's Belgium's chance to reoccupy the Ruhr.

  4. #3
    The German Navy has a lot of problems right now. It has no working submarines, in part because of a chronic repair parts shortage. The Deutsche Marine is still flying helicopters older than their pilots—the Sea Lynx entered service in 1981, and the Sea King in 1969—and has long-delayed their replacement. And now the service is facing problems with its newest ships so severe that the first of the class failed its sea trials and was returned to the shipbuilders in December.

    More at: https://arstechnica.com/information-...ls-sea-trials/
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #5
    Germany better hope that Europe's various artificial war-deterring monetary, customs, economic, political and so forth "unions" hold for the foreseeable future, as the alternative could be dire.
    According to Spiegel, only four of the Luftwaffe’s state-of-the-art Eurofighter jets are currently in good enough shape to be called on in the event of an invasion of German airspace, leaving the German armed forces to once again have to fight off allegations that their forces are not fit for combat.


    Theoretically the Luftwaffe has 128 Eurofighters - which make up the majority of Germany’s air combat force - ready for deployment. But in a Wednesday report on Spiegel, a defect in the jets’ self-defense systems means that in practice only four them can be sent on mission.
    The defect concerns a sensor on the jet’s wing which alerts pilots to an incoming attack. Technicians noticed a year and a half ago that the sensors were not staying cool during flights. It was then discovered that the cooling liquid had been leaking out of the pods the sensors were housed in.
    Obtaining a replacement has not been easy, however. The reason: a special seal is required to hold the liquid inside, but the company that produced the seal was quietly sold off without the supplier informing the German Defense Ministry.
    Germany's lack of military preparedness could also infuriate Trump as it means Germany can not even fulfill its basic NATO obligations. Europe's biggest economy has pledged to its NATO partners that it could deploy 82 Eurofighters in the event of a military crisis. In reality, it could not even do 5% of that.

    More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...case-emergency
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #6
    Germany: Government Approves New Budget With Lower Defense Spending

    Defense spending will reach 1.3 percent of the country's gross domestic product (GDP) in 2019 and gradually decrease to 1.23 percent by 2022, falling short of the NATO commitment to spend 2 percent of GDP on defense. Parliament is scheduled to vote on the budget in July.

    More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/situa...fense-spending
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    Why should they waste their money on a military when the USA will defend them?

    US Deployments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ry_deployments

    Second, it is a big reason why they (Europe) can afford to have such a welfare system in place. They save millions on defense.
    https://index.heritage.org/military/...onment/europe/

    Economically, the eurozone’s overall economic freedom is seriously undermined by the excessive government spending required to support elaborate welfare states. Economic policies being pursued by many eurozone countries hinder productivity growth and job creation, causing economic stagnation and rapidly increasing levels of public debt. Underperforming countries have not made the structural reforms needed for long-term adjustment.

    If Europe was forced to pay more for their defense You would see the E.U. collapse. Remember were still dealing with the lingering effects of an economy post WW2 and Cold War Europe.
    Last edited by Pauls' Revere; 05-04-2018 at 11:50 PM.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  9. #8
    According to Joseph Dempsey, a defense analyst for the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), footage has emerged of a severe missile accident involving the frigate SACHSEN (F219) of the German Navy.

    The accident occurred on June 21 off the Norwegian coast. A Standard Missile-2 was launched unsuccessfully during a naval war drill when it experienced a cataphoric failure — exploding on the vessel’s deck.
    Footage has emerged of the Jun 21 SM-2 SAM misfire aboard the #Germany Navy vessel Sachsen (F219) (minor German language warning!) pic.twitter.com/qXgn8qwHFF
    — Joseph Dempsey (@JosephHDempsey) June 27, 2018
    Dempsey noted that there were no injuries to the crew. However, the missile launcher, decking, and the bridge were severely damaged by intense fire and heat. According to the report by the German Navy, there was nothing during the pre-launch check that would indicate the missile would lead to a catastrophic failure.
    Damage sustained to Sachsen (F219) following SM-2 misfire. Fortunately only two crew sustained minor injuries, this could have been alot worse.https://t.co/hI5yM2soYl & https://t.co/QbYnE3v3mT pic.twitter.com/dTuPn30AiZ
    — Joseph Dempsey (@JosephHDempsey) June 27, 2018
    “Fortunately only two crew sustained minor injuries, this could have been a lot worse,” noted Dempsey.
    The Sachsen-class frigate (F219), also called Sachsen, is Germany’s latest class of highly advanced air-defense frigates. The vessel was built at the Blohm and Voss shipyard in Hamburg, which was commissioned in November 2004.
    According to Defence Blog, the frigate is equipped with Raytheon-built SM-2 Block IIIA surface-to-air missiles. It is an all-weather, supersonic, ship-launched, medium to long-range rocket providing defense for an entire fleet area.

    The Geniusstrand website has photographed several images allegedly showing the frigate SACHSEN (F219) returning to its home port in Vilhelmshafen harbor, in Northwestern Germany.

    Watch Full Video: German Navy Frigate SACHSEN SM2 Missile Accident




    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...sive-explosion
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    The German military, the Bundeswehr, had 21,000 unfilled positions in 2017, and the service is now looking beyond its borders to fill its ranks.
    A Defense Ministry report in late 2016 proposed recruiting from other EU countries, and the ministry confirmed in late July that it was seriously considering doing so.
    "The Bundeswehr is growing," a ministry spokesman told news agency DPA. "For this, we need qualified personnel."
    Germany's military has shrunk since the Cold War. In 2011, the country ended mandatory military service. From a high of of 585,000 troops in the mid-1980s, the service's numbers have fallen to just under 179,000 in mid-2018.

    About half of current members of the German military are expected to retire by 2030, and with an aging population, finding native-born replacements may get tougher.


    German leaders have pushed to add more troops while beefing up defense spending.
    In mid-2016, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen said she would remove the cap of 185,000 total troops to help make the force more flexible. She said the military would look to add 14,300 soldiers over seven years. (In early 2017, the Defense Ministry upped that to 20,000 soldiers added by 2024.)
    "The Bundeswehr is under pressure to modernize in all areas," she said at the time. "We have to get away from the process of permanent shrinking."
    Efforts to grow have included more recruitment of minors — a record-high 2,128 people under 18 joined as volunteers in 2017, but signing up young Germans has been criticized.

    Recruiting foreigners was generally supported by the governing parties, with some qualifiers.


    Karl-Heinz Brunner, a defense expert and member of the Social Democrat Party, said foreigners who join up should be promised citizenship.
    "If citizens of other countries are accepted, without the promise of getting a German passport, the Bundeswehr risks becoming a mercenary army," he told German newspaper Augsburger Allegemeine.
    Florian Hahn, a defense spokesman for the Christian Democratic Union, said such a recruitment model "could be developed," but "a certain level of trust with every soldier must be guaranteed."

    More at: https://www.businessinsider.com/germ...edium=referral

    Are they talking about "Refugees"?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    Revival of the German Military Service?

    Until 2011, Germany had a national military service of six-to-nine months length, which could either be done in the military or replaced by civilian service. Criticized as unnecessary, too expensive, or unfair, the service was put in abeyance in July 2011. However, a recent poll suggests that a majority of Germans support the idea of some kind of national service (though there is no majority for reintroducing the old 'Wehrdienst'). In Germany, this debate is in its early stages. But elsewhere in Europe, such as in Sweden and France, conscription has already been reintroduced in different forms.
    A German Bomb?

    The debate on a German nuclear bomb was started by a front-page article in the Welt on 29 July, written by German political science professor Christian Hacke. He argued that, as the U.S. under Donald Trump is becoming an increasingly unreliable partner, Germany needs to consider guaranteeing its own nuclear deterrence. He is not the first to argue this point; when Trump was elected in 2016, the editor of the biggest conservative newspaper in Germany had made a similar argument, and a Member of Parliament asked the parliamentary research service to look into options for Germany to share France's or the United Kingdom's nuclear weapons.

    More at: https://worldview.stratfor.com/artic...or-real-change
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    If the EU breaks, watch the German army quintuple in size in a year (and add nuclear weapons to its arsenal).

    Then the French will, after a suitably French delay, re-arm as well.

    And then we're back to 1914.

    Then, once again, openly traitorous Italy will have been the doom of Europe, perfidious Albion lurking in the wings to pick the corpses.

    Or.... the European peoples will turn away from nationalism.

    I guess we'll see.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 08-19-2018 at 07:30 PM.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If the EU breaks, watch the German army quintuple in size in a year (and add nuclear weapons to its arsenal).

    Then the French will, after a suitably French delay, re-arm as well.

    And then we're back to 1914.

    Then, once again, openly traitorous Italy will have been the doom of Europe, perfidious Albion lurking in the wings to pick the corpses.

    Or.... the European peoples will turn away from nationalism.

    I guess we'll see.
    Or maybe they can all get along peacefully without trying to tell eachother how to run things.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Or maybe they can all get along peacefully without trying to tell eachother how to run things.
    Maybe the Aryan Nation and Antifa can get together to knit sweaters for homeless kittens...

    If the EU breaks up, the only thing preventing the third general European war will be nuclear weapons, MAD.

    And that will be eliminated by technological improvements in missile defense in the coming decades, so...

    It's really rather ironic; "pro-European" types will end up killing a couple hundred million Europeans before they're done, if they win.

    And then, China will inherit the Earth.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 08-19-2018 at 08:06 PM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Maybe the Aryan Nation and Antifa can get together to knit sweaters for homeless kittens...

    If the EU breaks up, the only thing preventing the third general European war will be nuclear weapons, MAD.

    And that will be eliminated by technological improvements in missile defense in the coming decades, so...

    It's really rather ironic; "pro-European" types will end up killing a couple hundred million Europeans before they're done, if they win.

    If nationalism in the West doesn't end soon, China will inherit the Earth.
    If they are as fundamentally hostile as you claim then the EU could never work and war can't be avoided, if you are just blowing hot air then they can avoid war without giving up their independence to unelected dictators.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If they are as fundamentally hostile as you claim then the EU could never work and war can't be avoided, if you are just blowing hot air then they can avoid war without giving up their independence to unelected dictators.
    cum domino pax ista venit

    It is naive to think that Europe, disunited, would remain at peace for long.

    ...the same with the American states, sans federal government, by the way.

    That was already attempted. It didn't go well; and I don't mean only that the wrong side won. That war occurred at all was a failure.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post

    It is naive to think that Europe, disunited, would remain at peace for long.
    Then it is naive to think Europe could remain united for long.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    ...the same with the American states, sans federal government, by the way.

    Then why have we not been at war with Canada since 1812? Or Mexico for almost as long?

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That was already attempted. It didn't go well; and I don't mean only that the wrong side won. That war occurred at all was a failure.
    That war only happened because the Yankees wanted to deny the South its right to self determination, had Lincoln not tried to hold them by force the two nations could have lived side by side in peace.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Then it is naive to think Europe could remain united for long.
    You may need to revisit your study of history.

    Most (if not all) presently existing "nations" are unions of peoples who once hated one another.

    E.G. The United Kingdom (Britons, Scots, Welsh, Irish, et al), Italy (Venetians, Milanese, Florentines, Sienese, Romans, Neapolitans, et al), France (Parisians, Bretons, Occitans, Provencals, Lyonois, Burgundians, et al), Germany (Prussians, Hanoverians, Bavarians, Wurtembergers, Alsatians, et al), Russia (....an endless list of peoples). You get the idea.

    In each case (the above and any number of others), they were brought together by the dominance of a central power.

    Do you know that most "French" people didn't speak "French" until the 19th century (when the republican government outlawed local languages and herded speakers of, for instance, Occitan, into "French" (i.e. Parisian) public schools)? Did you know that most "Italians" still don't speak "Italian" (which is an artificial language based on the Florentine dialect) to this day? Go ask an Italian and he'll tell you that he's a Roman or a Milanese before it occurs to him to mention this abomination called "Italy."

    People are united by being ruled by a common ruler, any residual unpleasantness being cured by time (per forgetfulness).


    Then why have we not been at war with Canada since 1812? Or Mexico for almost as long?
    The US has fought several wars with both, attempting to conquer both (with some success against Mexico).

    More recently, they have been subservient. They are de facto US territories, at least with respect to military affairs.

    That war only happened because the Yankees wanted to deny the South its right to self determination, had Lincoln not tried to hold them by force the two nations could have lived side by side in peace.
    You miss the point.

    The particular motives of the actors at the time aren't important (in the context of this discussion, anyway).

    A war occurred between the states; it was extraordinarily destructive - the worst since the Napoleonic wars.

    It was a result of political decentralization.

  21. #18
    So you are for centralized governments. I see.
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You may need to revisit your study of history.

    Most (if not all) presently existing "nations" are unions of peoples who once hated one another.

    E.G. The United Kingdom (Britons, Scots, Welsh, Irish, et al), Italy (Venetians, Milanese, Florentines, Sienese, Romans, Neapolitans, et al), France (Parisians, Bretons, Occitans, Provencals, Lyonois, Burgundians, et al), Germany (Prussians, Hanoverians, Bavarians, Wurtembergers, Alsatians, et al), Russia (....an endless list of peoples). You get the idea.

    In each case (the above and any number of others), they were brought together by the dominance of a central power.

    Do you know that most "French" people didn't speak "French" until the 19th century (when the republican government outlawed local languages and herded speakers of, for instance, Occitan, into "French" (i.e. Parisian) public schools)? Did you know that most "Italians" still don't speak "Italian" (which is an artificial language based on the Florentine dialect) to this day? Go ask an Italian and he'll tell you that he's a Roman or a Milanese before it occurs to him to mention this abomination called "Italy."

    People are united by being ruled by a common ruler, any residual unpleasantness being cured by time (per forgetfulness).
    And all of those unions were created by force of war, the kind of war Europeans have fought for centuries in an attempt to re-create the Roman Empire, the kind of war you claim to want to avoid.
    Attempts at a peaceful union of so many different states and cultures will lead to the dominance of one or a few countries over the rest which will lead to resentment and disunion which will probably lead to war when the dominant parties seek to prevent it, war could be avoided if the dominant parties refrain from force and allow the exiting states to go in peace but that is not likely, everyone would have been better off if the excessively large union had not been attempted in the first place.
    (That is exactly what happened in the American Union and the War between the states.)



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The US has fought several wars with both, attempting to conquer both (with some success against Mexico).

    More recently, they have been subservient. They are de facto US territories, at least with respect to military affairs.
    Proving at least one state of peace without union exists.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You miss the point.

    The particular motives of the actors at the time aren't important (in the context of this discussion, anyway).

    A war occurred between the states; it was extraordinarily destructive - the worst since the Napoleonic wars.

    It was a result of political decentralization.
    No, it was the result of a union that never should have been breaking up and one side (the side that was leeching money from the other side) refusing to let go.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 08-19-2018 at 09:21 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You may need to revisit your study of history.

    Most (if not all) presently existing "nations" are unions of peoples who once hated one another.

    E.G. The United Kingdom (Britons, Scots, Welsh, Irish, et al), Italy (Venetians, Milanese, Florentines, Sienese, Romans, Neapolitans, et al), France (Parisians, Bretons, Occitans, Provencals, Lyonois, Burgundians, et al), Germany (Prussians, Hanoverians, Bavarians, Wurtembergers, Alsatians, et al), Russia (....an endless list of peoples). You get the idea.

    In each case (the above and any number of others), they were brought together by the dominance of a central power.

    Do you know that most "French" people didn't speak "French" until the 19th century (when the republican government outlawed local languages and herded speakers of, for instance, Occitan, into "French" (i.e. Parisian) public schools)? Did you know that most "Italians" still don't speak "Italian" (which is an artificial language based on the Florentine dialect) to this day? Go ask an Italian and he'll tell you that he's a Roman or a Milanese before it occurs to him to mention this abomination called "Italy."

    People are united by being ruled by a common ruler, any residual unpleasantness being cured by time (per forgetfulness).



    The US has fought several wars with both, attempting to conquer both (with some success against Mexico).

    More recently, they have been subservient. They are de facto US territories, at least with respect to military affairs.



    You miss the point.

    The particular motives of the actors at the time aren't important (in the context of this discussion, anyway).

    A war occurred between the states; it was extraordinarily destructive - the worst since the Napoleonic wars.

    It was a result of political decentralization.
    There were no external influence?

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    So you are for centralized governments. I see.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Change my mind!

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    There were no external influence?
    What, like Messicuns?

    No, my history may be a bit shaky, but I'm fairly certain there were no Messicuns in the internal politics of France c. 1500.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    What, like Messicuns?
    Big money.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    So you are for centralized governments. I see.
    He is a Globalist-Monarchist and he believes force would be justified to achieve his goals.

    In other words he is just another egomaniacal tyrant who doesn't care about people's rights.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    He is a Globalist-Monarchist and he believes force would be justified to achieve his goals.

    In other words he is just another egomaniacal tyrant who doesn't care about people's rights.

    We know.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    We know.
    I just wanted to state it clearly for any noobs.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And all of those unions were created by force of war
    Right

    the kind of war Europeans have fought for centuries in an attempt to re-create the Roman Empire
    That wasn't always the conscious goal, but it was always the logical conclusion, yes.

    the kind of war you claim to want to avoid
    Right

    Attempts at a peaceful union of so many different states and cultures will lead to the dominance of one or a few countries over the rest which will lead to resentment and disunion which will probably lead to war when the dominant parties seek to prevent it, war could be avoided if the dominant parties refrain from force and allow the exiting states to go in peace but that is not likely, everyone would have been better off if the excessively large union had not been attempted in the first place.
    (That is exactly what happened in the American Union and the War between the states.)
    No, it's much simpler. Attempts at union will succeed when the central authority is strong enough; when not, not.

    The alternative is international anarchy (i.e. more or less constant war).

    Here is a simplified history of Europe:

    -(40,000 - 23 B.C) Constant War
    -(23 B.C. - 476 A.D.) Pax Romana*
    -(476 A.D. - 1945) Constant War
    -(1945 - present) Pax Americana (or, more recently, the EU peace)

    *formal date; it really collapsed about a century earlier in the West, and lasted several hundred years longer in the East

    What comes next, I wonder?

    Proving at least one state of peace without union exists.
    The relationship between the US and Mexico/Canada is like the relationship between Rome and its barbarian vassal states.

    Mexico and Canada exist as sovereign states at the pleasure of Washington D.C.

    No, it was the result of a union that never should have been breaking up and one side (the side that was leeching money from the other side) refusing to let go.
    I should have a unicorn which $#@!s money, but it ain't so.

    The morality of it is, once again, irrelevant.

    It was only possible because the United States at that time was a rather decentralized federation.

    If it had been centralized, under whoever's leadership, war would have been impossible - as it is now.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 08-19-2018 at 09:40 PM.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    He is a Globalist-Monarchist and he believes force would be justified to achieve his goals.
    You also believe that force is justified to maintain the desired social order; or have you gone native (anarchist)?

    In other words he is just another egomaniacal tyrant who doesn't care about people's rights.
    That would be an interpretation of my views not based on what I've said, but sure....

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I just wanted to state it clearly for any noobs.
    Good thing you straightened them out.

    They might have gotten the idea that I believed in the form of government which has resulted in our present predicament.

    Boy, would that be embarrassing!

    Anyone who endorses the match can't really complain about the fire, can he?

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