Trump Administration to Send Thousands of ICE Agents to Target Sanctuary Cities

[Swordsmyth]

Yes, hence you might call them migrants.



That doesn't follow.

If the state bans importation of apples, does it follow that it's banned importation of all fruit?

It does not say apples (indentured servants) is says fruit (migration)

[r3volution 3.0]

It does not say apples (indentured servants) is says fruit (migration)

Right, but if the correct interpretation of migrants is indentured servants (which makes more sense in the historical context), then it means apples, not fruit.

[Swordsmyth]

Right, but if the correct interpretation of migrants is indentured servants (which makes more sense in the historical context), then it means apples, not fruit.

Jefferson didn't seem to think that was the correct interpretation:

"Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816. ME 15:28

He stated that the government had the power, and the government only gets it's powers from the constitution.

[phill4paul]

Franklin didn't like German immigrants. Yet, he didn't want to limit their migration, only that they should be
assimilated.

"Yet I am not for refusing entirely to admit them into our Colonies: all that seems
to be necessary is, to distribute them more equally, mix them with the English,
establish English schools where they are now too thick settled"

Washington...

"My opinion, with respect to emigration, is, that except of useful Mechanics and some particular descriptions of
men or professions, there is no need of encouragement: while the policy or advantage of its taking place in a
body (I mean the settling of them in a body) may be much questioned; for, by so doing, they retain the Language,
habits and principles (good or bad) which they bring with them. Whereas by an intermixture with our people, they, or their descendants,
get assimilated to our customs, measures and laws: in a word, soon become one people."

Washington also wrote...

“The bosom of America is open to receive not only the
Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations and
Religions.”

He also wrote that he...

"hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted
part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong.”

and this....

“the advantage of
[immigration and settlement] taking place in a body (I mean the settling of them in a
body) may be much questioned; for, by so doing, they retain the Language, habits, and
principles (good or bad) which they bring with them.”

The founders, in more than one writing, expressed the belief that they did not wish to encourage emigration, but that they did not
wish to discourage it. The main goal was naturalization and assimilation.

Which is exactly what our government has not done. Individuals like @Swordsmyth wish to blame those who wish to
immigrate here.

The blame lies fully on the government for those that seek to build a wall. It's policy drives them into sanctuary cities where
instead of assimilation they form their own communities for protection. It induces them with a liberal welfare program.
The founders believed that immigrants needed to be educated in Republican values. Look at our education system today. Does it inculcate the Republican values of our founders?

So, IMHO, energy should be spent in correcting that which has become of this Republic through liberal Democratic forces.
Not at those that if given the opportunity, for opportunity is what the majority want, to escape a repressive regime and would be receptive to the founders principles if they hadn't been demonized.

[phill4paul]

Jefferson didn't seem to think that was the correct interpretation:

"Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816. ME 15:28

He stated that the government had the power, and the government only gets it's powers from the constitution.

"If they come of themselves, they are entitled to all the rights of citizenship" T.J.

[Swordsmyth]

Franklin didn't like German immigrants. Yet, he didn't want to limit their migration, only that they should be
assimilated.

"Yet I am not for refusing entirely to admit them into our Colonies: all that seems
to be necessary is, to distribute them more equally, mix them with the English,
establish English schools where they are now too thick settled"

Washington...

"My opinion, with respect to emigration, is, that except of useful Mechanics and some particular descriptions of
men or professions, there is no need of encouragement: while the policy or advantage of its taking place in a
body (I mean the settling of them in a body) may be much questioned; for, by so doing, they retain the Language,
habits and principles (good or bad) which they bring with them. Whereas by an intermixture with our people, they, or their descendants,
get assimilated to our customs, measures and laws: in a word, soon become one people."

Washington also wrote...

“The bosom of America is open to receive not only the
Opulent and respectable Stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all Nations and
Religions.”

He also wrote that he...

"hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted
part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong.”

and this....

“the advantage of
[immigration and settlement] taking place in a body (I mean the settling of them in a
body) may be much questioned; for, by so doing, they retain the Language, habits, and
principles (good or bad) which they bring with them.”

The founders, in more than one writing, expressed the belief that they did not wish to encourage emigration, but that they did not
wish to discourage it. The main goal was naturalization and assimilation.

Which is exactly what our government has not done. Individuals like @Swordsmyth wish to blame those who wish to
immigrate here.

The blame lies fully on the government for those that seek to build a wall. It's policy drives them into sanctuary cities where
instead of assimilation they form their own communities for protection. It induces them with a liberal welfare program.
The founders believed that immigrants needed to be educated in Republican values. Look at our education system today. Does it inculcate the Republican values of our founders?

So, IMHO, energy should be spent in correcting that which has become of this Republic through liberal Democratic forces.
Not at those that if given the opportunity, for opportunity is what the majority want, to escape a repressive regime and would be receptive to the founders principles if they hadn't been demonized.

Maybe that is why they didn't use the power, it does not prove that they did not give congress the power after 1808.
Our immigration problems are different than theirs, so we need to use the power, they were wise enough to provide for that possibility.

[Swordsmyth]

"If they come of themselves, they are entitled to all the rights of citizenship" T.J.

"We may exclude them from our territory" T.J.

[r3volution 3.0]

Jefferson didn't seem to think that was the correct interpretation:

"Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816. ME 15:28

He stated that the government had the power, and the government only gets it's powers from the constitution.

It's still not clear to me that he was giving an objective explanation of the Constitution, contra merely expressing his own political views.

Anyway, I think we may just have to agree to disagree: not sure there is a slam dunk case one way or the other.

Suffice it say, even if the Constitution does authorize restrictions, that's no justification for them.

[phill4paul]

Maybe that is why they didn't use the power, it does not prove that they did not give congress the power after 1808.
Our immigration problems are different than theirs, so we need to use the power, they were wise enough to provide for that possibility.

Bull$#@!. It's already been explained to you the meaning of Article 1 Section 9. YOU may chose to disbelieve both liberal and conservative think tanks, but you're just pissing up a rope. The evidence is there but your predilection will not allow you to see otherwise. This is the definition of ignorance.

[phill4paul]

"We may exclude them from our territory" T.J.

Ok. My guitar goes to eleven...

"If they come of themselves, they are entitled to all the rights of citizenship" T.J.

[AuH20]

Ok. My guitar goes to eleven...

"If they come of themselves, they are entitled to all the rights of citizenship" T.J.

That conditional would disqualify many immigrants of the last 80 years.

[RestorationOfLiberty]

As our police state continues to grow and our freedoms reduced little by little.

No, as they are no longer able to cross a border thanks to a wall, and laws that prevent them from getting anything for "free".

Also immigration harms freedom/rights. http://www.thesocialcontract.com/art...3-vinson.shtml

Maybe we would not have the Patriot Act if we did not allow in muzzies seeing how they always wage jihad. But hey, It guess its better we fall on our sword because "MUH principals" rather then swing them at the necks of our enemies because "MUH NAP".

[RestorationOfLiberty]

Perhaps hiring more government agents is reducing the police state? (Trump wants to add another 15,000).

15,000 agents vs 30,000,000 future welfare voters...I wonder who will do more harm to the rights you claim to value Zip.

[AuH20]

No, as they are no longer able to cross a border thanks to a wall, and laws that prevent them from getting anything for "free".

Also immigration harms freedom/rights. http://www.thesocialcontract.com/art...3-vinson.shtml

Maybe we would not have the Patriot Act if we did not allow in muzzies seeing how they always wage jihad. But hey, It guess its better we fall on our sword because "MUH principals" rather then swing them at the necks of our enemies because "MUH NAP".

A physical barrier is the last line of defense in a corrupt land where material benefits are judicially enforced by physical violence. Numerous states have been struck down by the USC when attempting to turn off the magnets.

[phill4paul]

That conditional would disqualify many immigrants of the last 80 years.

How many? Who exactly? What nationalities? The Latinos I have met and employed went through a lot of $#@! to get here. Because they believe that here, in America, if they worked their ass off they could live above the minimal sustenance level they were afforded in their former country.

[RestorationOfLiberty]

The founders beliefs were not geared toward limiting migration. Otherwise we would not find this grievance against the Crowne in our Declaration of Independence.



When we look at the Laws for Naturalization foreigners we see that in



So, wow, they actually allowed whole swaths of Mexicans to naturalize. Might blowing isn't it.

This collective naturalization was legal because of a 1813, 4 yrs after the 1809 Constitution, supreme court decision.



http://www.heritage.org/constitution...naturalization

The founders, simply, did not wish to limit immigration. In fact it was one of the reasons they went to war against the Crowne.

Holy God you are a liar, http://humanevents.com/2007/07/20/fo...tion-skeptics/

[RestorationOfLiberty]

So you're a communist?



No. Every piece of land belongs to the individual who homesteaded it or obtained it by voluntary transfer from someone else.

That doesn't depend on the form of government.

As for the form of government: no state, of whatever form, owns the land it rules. However, every state worthy of the name controls the land it rules - that is the meaning of sovereignty. The advantage of monarchy over democracy (and I'd rather not go off too far on that tangent just now) is that the monarch has better incentives in exercising his control - it has nothing to do with who actually owns the land. By way of analogy, if I steal your car and am confident that I'll never get caught and have the car taken away, I'm not the owner, but I have ownerlike incentives with respect to the car (to maintain its value, do oil changes, put on new tires etc), contra a thief who fears losing the property he stole (he'll neglect it). In neither case does the thief actually own the car.

Who owns what, and the incentives of thieves with respect to their stolen property, are unrelated issues: one ethical, one economic.

Hey buddy...TRUMP WON, THE WALL IS GOING UP, DEAL WITH IT.

Its ok REv, neg repping is the last gasp of a beaten foe.

[RestorationOfLiberty]

A physical barrier is the last line of defense in a corrupt land where material benefits are judicially enforced by physical violence. Numerous states have been struck down by the USC when attempting to turn off the magnets.

And you can spreg out all you want,meanwhile the walls go out, hostiles are kept out and you enjoy the benefits while railing against it because you are a virtue signaling.

Yeah, those with something to protect, protect it. If you dont not like it, leave America and live in the 3rd world you adore so much, its not like they dont value the somethings that you do? Right?

[RestorationOfLiberty]

That conditional would disqualify many immigrants of the last 80 years.

And? Why is disqualify many immigrants a bad thing? We are not a charity ward, welfare office, refugee camp, work program, police, savior of the human race.

[phill4paul]

A physical barrier is the last line of defense in a corrupt land where material benefits are judicially enforced by physical violence. Numerous states have been struck down by the USC when attempting to turn off the magnets.

No physical barrier has ever held. Go ahead and believe wasting billions on one that it will change things. I've outlined my beliefs in a previous post #154. The problem is not with immigrants it is with Americans and the government they believe they have as opposed to what they have. Hell, I might be one of the last true Colonialists that challenges the Crowns assertions of subservience. Because I believe that if you come here to work hard, then you are a brother. If you believe that despite draconian rules, regulations and taxation, imposed by a formerly Republican government, that has so polluted the ideals of our founders, you simply wish to have an opportunity, not a guarantee, of a better life, then I consider you more of a brother than all the politicians and functionaries that eat out our substance.

[phill4paul]

Holy God you are a liar, http://humanevents.com/2007/07/20/fo...tion-skeptics/

Who the $#@! are you, or who's sock puppet, and why have you only decided to show up and slide now?

[r3volution 3.0]

Hey buddy...TRUMP WON, THE WALL IS GOING UP, DEAL WITH IT.

Brilliant retort. Thanks for your contribution..

[tod evans]

because you are a virtue signaling.

Oh goody!

I see sweetcakes is back..

Did you bring your knee pads copsucker?

[r3volution 3.0]

Who the $#@! are you, or who's sock puppet, and why have you only decided to show up and slide now?

There must be trouble in Trumpville.

Maybe Smitty and some of our other election-time pals will be immigrating back as well?

[phill4paul]

Brilliant retort. Thanks for your contribution..

I've reported him as a forum slider/low value poster. The discussion was going well with many cites and thought out points. I hope that others will do the same.

[phill4paul]

There must be trouble in Trumpville.

Maybe Smitty and some of our other election-time pals will be immigrating back as well?

Seems that way to me.

[AuH20]

How many? Who exactly? What nationalities? The Latinos I have met and employed went through a lot of $#@! to get here. Because they believe that here, in America, if they worked their ass off they could live above the minimal sustenance level they were afforded in their former country.

All nationalities. This isn't necessarily a color issue. Very few immigrants in the contemporary period have added to the collective strength of the country. Many are leeches because the corruptible environment attracts those type of people.

[phill4paul]

All nationalities. This isn't necessarily a color issue. Very few immigrants in the contemporary period have added to the collective strength of the country. Many are leeches because the corruptible environment attracts those type of people.

I've made my point. Immigrants are not your problem. Immigrants would actually find the Republican principles of our founding appealing. If they could be assimilated into a society that held these principles close. The problem is your fellow Americunts. The immigrants just want to come here, work hard, and have a better life than what they experienced under their former regime. Americunts just want the government to regulate and tax for their particular offence. Are immigrants your personal offence? Do you want government to regulate and tax for your particular offence? If so you might be an Ameri$#@!.

[RestorationOfLiberty]

No physical barrier has ever held. Go ahead and believe wasting billions on one that it will change things. I've outlined my beliefs in a previous post #154. The problem is not with immigrants it is with Americans and the government they believe they have as opposed to what they have. Hell, I might be one of the last true Colonialists that challenges the Crowns assertions of subservience. Because I believe that if you come here to work hard, then you are a brother. If you believe that despite draconian rules, regulations and taxation, imposed by a formerly Republican government, that has so polluted the ideals of our founders, you simply wish to have an opportunity, not a guarantee, of a better life, then I consider you more of a brother than all the politicians and functionaries that eat out our substance.

Israel`s border walls are proof you are wrong, never mind the Polish border fence, Balguria, etc.

But keep ignoring how they vote, why they are allowed in. Its rather simple, its to replace and out vote you, but keep ignoring this.

[nikcers]

Israel`s border walls are proof you are wrong, never mind the Polish border fence, Balguria, etc.

But keep ignoring how they vote, why they are allowed in. Its rather simple, its to replace and out vote you, but keep ignoring this.

Your lucky Trump's Isreali first administration is pushing a bill through congress that makes criticizing Israeli foreign policy illegal so I am not going to dispute their foreign policy because I don't want to go to jail.