Senate passes $1.9 trillion dollar COVID stimulus package

[Okie RP fan]

Has it started? Little 600 to 1400 checks every 3-6 months isn't exactly dumping money from helicopters onto the street imo. Especially since they keep widdling down who is eligible further each time. 80% of the cost of these huge bills go into accounting black holes and don't much show up in the real economy. Wall St loves them. Crony contractors and donors love them. Average people get a few crumbs. That's not what I ever envisioned helicopter money being but ymmv.

Once Fedcoin CBDC is rolled out in the midst of a collapse, directly into accounts, maybe then I'll consider it helicopter money though.

Well, consider that within the last year the average American household (something like 90% of Americans have been eligible per their terms from my understanding) has been given thousands of dollars (when factoring in dependents as well) over the course of two rounds, and thousands more on the horizon for round three... I'd consider we're getting pretty darn close.

This doesn't include the discussion of all of the pork and who gets that, either.

Most of the helicopter money goes to businesses. The 1400 shimmy checks ain't $#@!

Don't worry, those stimmies will soon be directly injectible!

[TheTexan]

Tragic. Didn't all of your guns go down with that ship too?

Sadly yes, it was probably not wise to go on fishing trip with all of my guns & gold. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess

[Pauls' Revere]

Abolish all federal institutions.

Thanks for adding reputation to this user. May you be lucky enough to receive the same Reputation back in turn.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

The tricky part is adding a second level. That's how I lost my first boat, sadly some of my precious metals were lost in that accident as well

Sorry to hear that. I figured a person with your wealth and knowledge would have had a boat just for precious metals. Did you snorkle or scuba dive for them?

[TheTexan]

Sorry to hear that. I figured a person with your wealth and knowledge would have had a boat just for precious metals. Did you snorkle or scuba dive for them?

We did search for it, but alas, to no avail. Current theory is that the gold/handguns were eaten by a rather large catfish. Likely it was Bubbles who has continued to evade us since the summer of '07

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

We did search for it, but alas, to no avail. Current theory is that the gold/handguns were eaten by a rather large catfish. Likely it was Bubbles who has continued to evade us since the summer of '07

I am delighted to see there is at least one person that still uses logic and critical thinking skills left in this world!

[Krugminator2]

But there were rationales for supporting Trump's COVID stimulus bill...

There was the "prevent an economic crisis" rationale:



Then there was the "we deserve the money because of the lockdowns" rationale:

I opposed this round of stimulus strongly when Trump was pushing it. This is not even a remotely similar situation in any way shape or form to last April. They have no commonality whatsoever and that guy's quote below mine is reprehensible welfare begging.

And btw, the government actions last spring worked. That isn't an opinion. That is what the facts say. You remember when people were begging for money on this site? The actions by the Federal Reserve prevented something on par with the Great Depression.

[James_Madison_Lives]

They can spend all they want it doesn't matter, this is final proof they are going to chip us and move to purely digital currency, they'll wipe out the debt and we will all shop at the "company store."

[devil21]

I opposed this round of stimulus strongly when Trump was pushing it. This is not even a remotely similar situation in any way shape or form to last April. They have no commonality whatsoever and that guy's quote below mine is reprehensible welfare begging.

And btw, the government actions last spring worked. That isn't an opinion. That is what the facts say. You remember when people were begging for money on this site? The actions by the Federal Reserve prevented something on par with the Great Depression.

Link please.

And the Fed only delayed the next Depression until a time of the banker's choosing (which is near imo) when it creates the excuse to overhaul policies that they have pre-planned. They create them through control of the money supply, remember? I visited Jekyll Island recently and stood in the room where the Fed was created to do exactly that. Swanky place, that Jekyll Island Club.

[Brian4Liberty]

And it passes. And Wall St celebrates. Is there any question as to who benefits from these corrupt, crony, pork-filled bills?

Here's a hint: It isn't a minimum wage worker, working class laborer or retired grandmother.

[Anti Globalist]

And it passes. And Wall St celebrates. Is there any question as to who benefits from these corrupt, crony, pork-filled bills?

Here's a hint: It isn't a minimum wage worker, working class laborer or retired grandmother.

Is it the politicians and the billionaires who benefits from those pork filled bills?

[Brian4Liberty]

I don't just mean his stimulus.


He was a profligate spender even before COVID.

So you support stimulus?

Trump was no fiscal conservative. He just said he would make "the best deals".

I opposed this round of stimulus strongly when Trump was pushing it. This is not even a remotely similar situation in any way shape or form to last April. They have no commonality whatsoever and that guy's quote below mine is reprehensible welfare begging.

And btw, the government actions last spring worked. That isn't an opinion. That is what the facts say. You remember when people were begging for money on this site? The actions by the Federal Reserve prevented something on par with the Great Depression.

You supported the first stimulus.

"And btw, the government actions last spring worked. That isn't an opinion. That is what the facts say. "

LOL. Now that's a load of manure. "The facts"? Was it science?

The economy and markets are huge, complex, systems with a vast number of variables, including market psychology. Claiming cause and effect of a stimulus bill on the economy is not science, or a fact. Correlation does not imply causation.

You and Kudlow can claim credit for a V shaped recovery from a government created economic shutdown, but it's just as valid to say that the economy would return to it's trajectory and level no matter what bill was passed or not passed.

Many businesses started to operate underground after the initial panic and "15 days to flatten the curve" was over. And most businesses found a way to work around mandates, some even increasing their business.

But we will have to eventually live with the price inflation (and relative wage deflation) caused by the insane drunken socialist sailor spending.

[Brian4Liberty]

Is it the politicians and the billionaires who benefits from those pork filled bills?

Add their special interest cronies and that's about it.

[phill4paul]

Back when this site was started I believe the National Debt was around 6.7 Trillion. Now we are hitting $30 Trillion. At some point you come to realize it's never going to be corrected without collapse or overthrow.

[TheCount]

So you support stimulus?

Are you intentionally ignoring the point?

[Brian4Liberty]

Are you intentionally ignoring the point?

Which point?

[Krugminator2]

You supported the first stimulus.

I have never supported fiscal stimulus in my life. Words matter and how people (like you) can draw a false equivalence between this bill and the first bill when circumstances were light years apart. Stimulus implies supporting something as a boost to aggregate demand. The evidence suggests fiscal stimulus doesn't work.

However, I strongly supported the Federal Reserve's actions combined with the loans in the first relief bill so credit wouldn't freeze up and so you wouldn't have a mass wave of bankruptcies in the hospitality and energy industries. The collapse in credit all at once on a mass scale is what lead to the Great Depression.

The average person in this country has no money saved. I supported cutting people checks not as a way to boost aggregate demand but because unemployment was 16% as a disaster relief.

These views are straight out of the Milton Friedman and Hayek playbook. And I've linked to the Bastiat quote enough times on this as well.

[TheCount]

Which point?

The point that you quoted:

the same people who ignored or downplayed any such criticism for the past four years will suddenly find themselves to be true believers in fiscal responsibility yet again

[Brian4Liberty]

I have never supported fiscal stimulus in my life. Words matter and how people (like you) can draw a false equivalence between this bill and the first bill when circumstances were light years apart. Stimulus implies supporting something as a boost to aggregate demand. The evidence suggests fiscal stimulus doesn't work.

However, I strongly supported the Federal Reserve's actions combined with the loans in the first relief bill so credit wouldn't freeze up and so you wouldn't have a mass wave of bankruptcies in the hospitality and energy industries. The collapse in credit all at once on a mass scale is what lead to the Great Depression.

The average person in this country has no money saved. I supported cutting people checks not as a way to boost aggregate demand but because unemployment was 16% as a disaster relief.

These views are straight out of the Milton Friedman and Hayek playbook. And I've linked to the Bastiat quote enough times on this as well.

On the first bipartisan COVID bill passed under Trump:

This isn't a stimulus like public works projects. Obama's plan was just a bunch of programs like short term tax cuts and programs like cash for clunkers. It was Keynesian stimulus (which has a mixed record) to boost spending. This bill has little to do with stimulus and everything to do with avoiding the systemic risk of bankruptcies. That is why most of it is loans to backstop businesses and the remainder is checks to keep people paying bills.

We had a depression in the 1930's called the Great Depression. It was caused by letting banks fail which caused depositors not to be able to pays debts which caused more bank failures and a money supply collapse which caused people throughout the economy not be able to service debt. It was a never ending spiral. Those bankruptcies took years to settle. How did the let things go to hell method work? The Peter Schiff method was a decade of pain.

What happens if you just let things work themselves out right now? Think hard. If people don't pay rent, the property management companies can't pay their mortgage and they fold. If corporations in vulnerable industries like hospitality start folding, you are talking about tens of millions of people whose jobs are at stake. Bankruptcies mean layoffs and they also mean a complete halt to new investment. What happens if investment halts throughout the entire economy for years while bankruptcies get settled?

It sounds like support for that bill.

[Brian4Liberty]

The point that you quoted:

You mean the majority of the GOP, especially Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy? Yeah, they love spending, and they love doing it in a smokey backroom with Pelosi and Schumer. Their complaints about spending now are disingenuous.

[Krugminator2]

On the first bipartisan COVID bill passed under Trump:



It sounds like support for that bill.

Umm... Yeah. I think that is pretty clear. And what I wrote a year ago matches what I wrote an hour ago about how to think about it. The two posts were remarkably consistent weren't they? Literally the same thing and same reasoning.

What is your point?

[Brian4Liberty]

Umm... Yeah. I think that is pretty clear. And what I wrote a year ago matches what I wrote an hour ago about how to think about it. The two posts were remarkably consistent weren't they? Literally the same thing and same reasoning.

What is your point?

@TheCount posted about those who supported the COVID Relief bill when Trump was President. You just happened to be one of two examples I found on this forum. And as I posted earlier when I first referenced it, you had your reasoning for it.

[Pauls' Revere]

Maybe. I can't decide if I want to build a new boat, or add a couch to my current boat

LOL we should all just bring our own loungers tie them together and float in a lake somewhere and declare ourselves Independent.

[RJB]

@TheCount posted about those who supported the COVID Relief bill when Trump was President. You just happened to be one of two examples I found on this forum. And as I posted earlier when I first referenced it, you had your reasoning for it.

He/she stirs up $#@! and then runs when the hornets are loose. He/she will show up in another thread to do the same thing. He/she may show back up in this one if it goes on, but he/she won't take you on because you asked a specific question that would pin him/her down to a specific political persuasion. Although, he/she is a relentless savage when going after low hanging fruit like Q-anon followers.

[Pauls' Revere]

And it passes. And Wall St celebrates. Is there any question as to who benefits from these corrupt, crony, pork-filled bills?

Here's a hint: It isn't a minimum wage worker, working class laborer or retired grandmother.

It is The Federal Reserve that wins.

[TheCount]

You mean the majority of the GOP, especially Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy? Yeah, they love spending, and they love doing it in a smokey backroom with Pelosi and Schumer. Their complaints about spending now are disingenuous.

Let's not pretend that it's just establishment or elite republicans. Right populism is an epidemic among so-called conservatives in the US.

[fcreature]

Maybe someday I'll get a stimmy too.

[Invisible Man]

You supported the first stimulus.

"And btw, the government actions last spring worked. That isn't an opinion. That is what the facts say. "

LOL. Now that's a load of manure. "The facts"? Was it science?

The economy and markets are huge, complex, systems with a vast number of variables, including market psychology. Claiming cause and effect of a stimulus bill on the economy is not science, or a fact. Correlation does not imply causation.

+rep

[Invisible Man]

Let's not pretend that it's just establishment or elite republicans. Right populism is an epidemic among so-called conservatives in the US.

That's an understatement.

In the eyes of the populist crowd, as represented by folks like Trump and Tucker Carlson 2.0, the biggest problem with the GOP establishment is that it's too beholden to free market principles for their taste.

[devil21]

Back when this site was started I believe the National Debt was around 6.7 Trillion. Now we are hitting $30 Trillion. At some point you come to realize it's never going to be corrected without collapse or overthrow.

It can't be corrected and the system was specifically designed that way. Interest on debt is never created so it's mathematically impossible to "repay" it all (meaning paying off debt with more debt currency, repaying with gold is a different story), as long as part of the created money goes to interest payments. If you drill down a bit further, the real story is that the debt total itself doesn't really matter. What matters is only the ability of the slaves to continue to labor just enough to service the interest payments to debt holders, hence the efforts to keep interest rates near zero to keep the interest profitable but still serviceable enough to squeeze every last drop of labor out. Then they'll just pull some engineered stunt that makes the debt disappear (along with the money created from it), after the bankers hold legal title to everyone and everything. That is the collapse and Depression. That time is fast approaching imo.

"And btw, the government actions last spring worked. That isn't an opinion. That is what the facts say. "

LOL. Now that's a load of manure. "The facts"? Was it science?

The economy and markets are huge, complex, systems with a vast number of variables, including market psychology. Claiming cause and effect of a stimulus bill on the economy is not science, or a fact. Correlation does not imply causation.

The Fed's main move was the market psychology aspect. Fed said it would commit some ridiculous dollar figure toward buying up any old crap asset to keep markets supported. It actually did nothing of the sort but the jawboning that it would follow through was believed, along with some coordinated PPT action, after Congress gave Mnuchin $500 billion for the PPT's Exchange Stabilization Fund as part of the CARES Act. They've been using that money ever since to control markets on a daily basis after people bought back in.