O Lord, Why Do You Harden Our Hearts?

[Sola_Fide]

Isaiah 63:17

O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?

Think about it.

[fisharmor]

I don't belong to that religion.

In my religion the Holy Spirit, a person of the triune God, constantly reaches out to me in ways followed by countless others throughout history - fellow Christians with whom I commune weekly.
These ways are how God melts my heart and reshapes me in His image.

It works.

And you go out of your way to $#@! on it.

[Sola_Fide]

I don't belong to that religion.

In my religion the Holy Spirit, a person of the triune God, constantly reaches out to me in ways followed by countless others throughout history - fellow Christians with whom I commune weekly.
These ways are how God melts my heart and reshapes me in His image.

It works.

And you go out of your way to $#@! on it.

In your religion, does the Holy Spirit inspire the writing of the Scripture? Because He inspired this:

Isaiah 63:17

O Lord, why do you make us wander from your ways and harden our heart, so that we fear you not?

[Sola_Fide]

John 12:40

He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

The God of Scripture is a God who hardens people's hearts and blinds their eyes so that they cannot be converted.

Many people don't worship this God. They worship another one.

[VIDEODROME]

The God of Scripture is a God who hardens people's hearts and blinds their eyes so that they cannot be converted.

Many people don't worship this God. They worship another one.

If you keep posting this enough, will it change their minds or something? Or God making you post this so Elect people on this forum will see it?

[Sola_Fide]

If you keep posting this enough, will it change their minds or something? Or God making you post this so Elect people on this forum will see it?

No. Christians have no use for trickery or clever words or persuasive sales pitches to preach the gospel. They know that it is God who converts the heart, not them.

[helmuth_hubener]

If you keep posting this enough, will it change their minds or something? Or God making you post this so Elect people on this forum will see it?

(According to Sola_Fide's belief, not mine: ) Of course God made him post that. Just as He made you post what you did! But how dare you question why? Who are you to question God? He just did. Deal with it. Or don't! If He makes you not. It's really all up to Him. God is the only agent here. We're all just his Lego men. We do whatever He makes us do. And here He is making us argue with each other in this very thread! Think about that! Isn't that funny of Him? Ha, ha, ha!

A very funny Guy, Sola's Tyrant God.

[Anti Federalist]

No. Christians have no use for trickery or clever words or persuasive sales pitches to preach the gospel. They know that it is God who converts the heart, not them.

Converting yes.

But you said that asking for that conversion is pointless.

God already knows exactly who he is going to convert and who he is going to damn.

[jmdrake]

I wish S_F wasn't banned. I think the best defense against his bad information is more good information. For example here is what he left OUT of Isaiah 63.

10 Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.

If anyone who believes like Sola_FIde is reading this, do you not understand what verse 10 is saying? After people rebel against God and grieve His Holy Spirit then He hardens their hearts.

[Natural Citizen]

I wish S_F wasn't banned. I think the best defense against his bad information is more good information.

Well that's all well and good and maybe it makes one feel a little better about oneself for the twenty minutes or so that one is logged in here arguing his same old loaded terms of controversy day in and day out for years on end over and over and over and over again like puppets on a string for his personal amusement but the forum looks like a circus sideshow to everyone else and neither side of the debate generally demonstates themelves to be very representative witnesses once his bait is taken. Me included. Which is precisely his intention. And I'll get to that down the page. Do you know how long a nonbeliever or any general passer-by is going to spend time reading the chaos here? I'll tell you. About 30 seconds. Debating scipture is one thing. But nobody should be provided a free and open platform to functionally attack and minimize the faith of another for the purpose of establishing some kind of doctrinal superiority or to create strategic division as a matter of organized activism. That's something else entirely.

Now. And this is important to acknowledge. Given that the major majority of S_F's time here was organized in a manner as to use this free platform to openly profess that most everyone here (aside from himself, of course) was not a Christian and given that he observably used the platform to openly protest the Christianity of his peers on a daily basis, I'll leave you with this to ponder...

Originally Posted by Sola_Fide

The title of the forum is misleading. There is no such thing as peace between a Christian and the world.

So think about what it is that you're really contributing to when you welcome the likes of S_F who uses the platform to openly reject, minimize, and attack everyone elses Christianity aside from his own. Think about what passing your little batons back and forth in order to appease his terms of controversy really accomplishes in a place like this. He doesn't want reasonabe debate. He wants havoc. He wants chaos. He wants war with all who are here because he, himself, rejects their faith and status as a Christian. All it's really accomplishing by welcoming his presence is to help him wreak his havoc. And it degrades the value of the forum.

Good riddance.

[helmuth_hubener]

(According to Sola_Fide's belief, not mine: ) Of course God made him post that. Just as He made you post what you did! But how dare you question why? Who are you to question God? He just did. Deal with it. Or don't! If He makes you not. It's really all up to Him. God is the only agent here. We're all just his Lego men. We do whatever He makes us do. And here He is making us argue with each other in this very thread! Think about that! Isn't that funny of Him? Ha, ha, ha!

A very funny Guy, Sola's Tyrant God.

I want to say that I wish I hadn't got so snarky with my last line there. That was not needed. I do understand the point of view, theologically-speaking, and I do understand that there are others here besides Sola who hold the view. I have no particular need nor desire to disparage your belief.

I personally just find it a particularly meaningless and empty way to view life. So, none of us are in charge of our own lives and our own decisions. God makes all our decisions for us. That's just super. Very disempowering.

[euphemia]

He's gone now. Please let his threads die.

[jmdrake]

Well that's all well and good and maybe it makes one feel a little better about oneself for the twenty minutes or so that one is logged in here arguing his same old loaded terms of controversy day in and day out for years on end over and over and over and over again like puppets on a string for his personal amusement but the forum looks like a circus sideshow to everyone else and neither side of the debate generally demonstates themelves to be very representative witnesses once his bait it taken. Me included. Which is precisely his intention. And I'll get to that down the page. Do you know how long a nonbeliever or any general passer-by is going to spend time reading the chaos here? I'll tell you. About 30 seconds. Debating scipture is one thing. But nobody should be provided a free and open platform to functionally attack and minimize the faith of another for the purpose of establishing some kind of doctrinal superiority or to create strategic division as a matter of organized activism. That's something else entirely.

Now. And this is important to acknowledge. Given that the major majority of S_F's time here was organized in a manner as to use this free platform to openly profess that most everyone here (aside from himself, of course) was not a Christian and given that he observably used the platform to openly protest the Christianity of his peers on a daily basis, I'll leave you with this to ponder...



So think about what it is that you're really contibuting to when you welcome the likes of S_F who uses the platform to openly reject, minimize, and attack everyone elses Christianity aside from his own. Think about what passing your little batons back and forth in order to appease his terms of controversy really accomplishes in a place like this. He doesn't want reasonabe debate. He wants havoc. He wantschaos. All it's really accomplishing by welcoming his presence is to help him wreak his havoc. And it degrades the value of the forum.

Good riddance.

Hello N.C. A few observations.

1) Sola_Fide is not even close to being the most offensive person to spew hateful rhetoric in this forum. I won't name names because the worst offender eventually stopped offending but he should have been banned at least temporarily for his nonsense.

2) I understand and share the exasperation and dealing with SF's games at times. Note that in donnay's thread that SF hijacked I didn't come in until it was well over 300 posts. I knew without clicking on it what had happened. It had been threadjacked. Personally I wish the forum software let people moderate threads that they start. That said, controversy drives threads and forums. That's a sad fact of humanity.

3) Once people get past the exasperation, there is good fodder for thought in opposing viewpoints. What gets my goat at times with SF (and yes I suppose that sometimes I'm a "poor witness" in response) is the proof texting where he'll take a verse out of context, ignore any verse you put in rebuttal, and pretend he's somehow "won" if you don't play his game. It's childish but easy to see through. If you take the time and read his proof text in context, more profound truths can be found. In this case the profound truth is that the hardening of the heart is a vicious cycle. If you grieve the Holy Spirit and decide to go your own way then God will grease the skids for you to fall even faster.

But hey we've saved the forum because SF is temporarily banned. Okay. Liberty saved I guess.

[Natural Citizen]

1) Sola_Fide is not even close to being the most offensive person to spew hateful rhetoric in this forum. I won't name names because the worst offender eventually stopped offending but he should have been banned at least temporarily for his nonsense.

I don't particularly care about anyone's feelings or whether they're offended or not. Nobody has a right to have their feelings addressed. The point was that the sub-forum isnt provided for the purpose of giving someone a podium for creating division as a matter of activism.

2) I understand and share the exasperation and dealing with SF's games at times. Note that in donnay's thread that SF hijacked I didn't come in until it was well over 300 posts. I knew without clicking on it what had happened. It had been threadjacked. Personally I wish the forum software let people moderate threads that they start. That said, controversy drives threads and forums. That's a sad fact of humanity.

Many, many, many times S_F has used the board to pridefully brag about how many views and responses that his divisive threads had. He's very arrogant. And he's very prideful. He was very proud of the depth of the division that he created. And he was quick to remind us that he was keeping track. He didn't care for intelligent debate, he wanted attention toward his cause. He wanted to see 50 responses on a page 50 pages deep thread so that his agenda to divide Christians was front and center every single day for public consumption and to create the illusion of some kind of doctrinal superiority. The last thing I'd want to see is S_F moderating one of his own threads. I'd leave this place for good if that ever happened.

3) Once people get past the exasperation, there is good fodder for thought in opposing viewpoints. What gets my goat at times with SF (and yes I suppose that sometimes I'm a "poor witness" in response) is the proof texting where he'll take a verse out of context, ignore any verse you put in rebuttal, and pretend he's somehow "won" if you don't play his game. It's childish but easy to see through. If you take the time and read his proof text in context, more profound truths can be found. In this case the profound truth is that the hardening of the heart is a vicious cycle. If you grieve the Holy Spirit and decide to go your own way then God will grease the skids for you to fall even faster.

Agreed. In fact, I've spoken about the proof-texting several times. The problem is that you can never get to discussing the actual tenor of scripture because he immediately flipped the script with 20 questions when he saw where it was going in order to bait people into answering him and then he was able to continue to running with his agenda once they did. He was able to avoid any discussion of actual tenor in scripture by immediately asking questions relative to his cause the moment anyone mentioned actual tenor of the scripture that he was proof-texting. And, unfortunately, people get caught up in his game of 20 questions and he got to keep his narrative front and center without ever having to acknowledge the questions that he was asked. Along with the frequent spew about how you're not a Christian and he is.

But hey we've saved the forum because SF is temporarily banned. Okay. Liberty saved I guess.

For me it's not about saving liberty. At least not as far as S_F's divisive presence was concerned. It's just about functional debate principles. Do you remember when Deb brought up the idea of this sub-forum? It wasn't for the purpose of creating division as a matter of political/theological activism.


Anyway. I'm glad you didn't take my thoughts the wrong way. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts on it.

That's probably my last word on S_F. There's better things to do.

[jmdrake]

I don't particularly care about anyone's feelings or whether they're offended or not. Nobody has a right to have their feelings addressed. The point was that the sub-forum isnt provided for the purpose of giving someone a podium for creating division as a matter of activism.



Many, many, many times S_F has used the board to pridefully brag about how many views and responses that his divisive threads had. He's very arrogant. And he's very prideful. He was very proud of the depth of the division that he created. He didn't care for intelligent debate, he wanted attention toward his cause. He wanted to see 50 responses on a page 50 pages deep thread so that his agenda to divide Christians was front and center every single day for public consumption and to create the illusion of some kind of doctrinal superiority. The last thing I'd want to see is S_F moderating one of his own threads. I'd leave this place for good if that ever happened.



Agreed. In fact, I've spoken about the proof-texting several times. The problem is that you can never get to discussing the actual tenor of scripture because he immediately flipped the script with 20 questions when he saw where it was going in order to bait people into answering him and then he was able to continue to running with his agenda once they did. He was able to avoid any discussion of actual tenor in scripture by immediately asking questions relative to his cause the moment anyone mentioned actual tenor of the scripture that he was proof-texting. And, unfortunately, people get caught up in his game of 20 questions and he got to keep his narrative front and center without ever having to acknowledge the questions that he was asked. Along with the frequent spew about how you're not a Christian and he is.



For me it's not about saving liberty. At least not as far as S_F's divisive presence was concerned. It's just about functional debate principles. Do you remember when Deb brought up the idea of this sub-forum? It wasn't for the purpose of creating division as a matter of political/theological activism.


Anyway. I'm glad you didn't take my thoughts the wrong way. Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts on it.

That's probably my last word on S_F. There's better things to do.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. For clarification, I'm not worried about being offended at this point. As the Bible says "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them." Seriously though, the situation I was referring to was when a certain person would respond anytime I was getting the better of him but cutting and pasting from some dishonest anti-SDA website that had absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed! At least when SF "proof texts" he's kind of sort of on topic. That person has stopped doing that so I won't call him out directly.

I agree with you that Deb was hoping for thoughtful discussion about religion and that's what this subforum should be. Before that there were many angry discussions that were unhelpful to the process of trying to get Ron Paul elected which got shuttled off to Hot Topics right next to "The Twin Towers were brought down by a controlled demolition" threads. We had people openly attacking Ron Paul for being a Christian all the while we were trying to attract Christians to vote for Ron Paul in places like Iowa. Thankfully that kind of crap no longer goes on.

The general problem with forums like this is that there are only "blunt tools" to deal with trolling. A mod can ban someone, split a thread or send someone a reprimand (which is usually private). Users can neg rep or put someone on ignore. These are simply limitations of the software but as a result someone who is trolling can think he's "winning" by the shear size of the threads he has created or hijacked even if the last 100 posts are just him going back and forth with one other person. The worst case of thread jacking I've seen is when someone started a thread about hymns and it became yet another thread about predestination/free will. Not sure what the ultimate answer is though.

[euphemia]

The hijacking was the worst part. It's one thing to have threads that provoke discussion, but it is another altogether to hijack someone else's thread--especially if that thread is a person's personal story. It is selfish, disrespectful, and downright rude to insert one's opinion in every.single.thread. It is wrong to deliberately provoke people. It's being a stumbling block, if nothing else, and the Bible forbids that.

These forums are too large to micromoderate every single thread, and I get that, but I think people who have proven themselves to be problems have forfeited their right to participate.

[Superfluous Man]

If anyone who believes like Sola_FIde is reading this, do you not understand what verse 10 is saying? After people rebel against God and grieve His Holy Spirit then He hardens their hearts.

Of course.

Why would anyone think SF didn't mean that?

Obviously it's not talking about God hardening the hearts of those who are already faithful.

[pcosmar]

Of course.

Why would anyone think SF didn't mean that?

Obviously it's not talking about God hardening the hearts of those who are already faithful.

according to SF,, no one is faithful. No one cam be saved because no one can repent.

a dour and joyless message.

[Superfluous Man]

according to SF,, no one is faithful. No one cam be saved because no one can repent.

a dour and joyless message.

That's right. I think jmdrake was implying that SF's would disagree with what he said.

[Christian Liberty]

I want to say that I wish I hadn't got so snarky with my last line there. That was not needed. I do understand the point of view, theologically-speaking, and I do understand that there are others here besides Sola who hold the view. I have no particular need nor desire to disparage your belief.

I personally just find it a particularly meaningless and empty way to view life. So, none of us are in charge of our own lives and our own decisions. God makes all our decisions for us. That's just super. Very disempowering.

Well, as Spurgeon put it, God is totally sovereign and man is totally responsible, and even if those two lines seem parallel on earth, they intersect in heaven. We do know, specifically (from Romans 9 among other passages) that God fashions some humans for life and others for destruction. Yet we also know that man is duty-bound to repent and believe the gospel, and that he cannot blame God for his failure to do so. That may seem contradictory to us but we as Christians know that it isn't. That may seem disempowering, but it is the Biblical view of the matter.

[Christian Liberty]

according to SF,, no one is faithful. No one cam be saved because no one can repent.

a dour and joyless message.

Nobody can save himself, but those who God has predestined unto faith, he gives a new and repenting heart.

[pcosmar]

he gives a new and repenting heart.

Really can't tell from his posts.

But I knew he understood nothing when he claimed we could not question God.

I have, and been answered.

[Christian Liberty]

Really can't tell from his posts.

But I knew he understood nothing when he claimed we could not question God.

I have, and been answered.

Meh, whether you happen to think Sola_Fide's heart is transformed is not really the point. I happen to see insufficient grounds from my internet interactions from him to doubt it, but I of course do not know. But even if not, that doesn't discount the good and correct things he says (which, to be clear, is not all of them.)