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Thread: There are no cuts in Trump's budget

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We have not yet reached the point where lower taxes lowers revenue.
    I think we have reached that point. Now govt borrowing and spending which actually grows the economy in the interim gives the illusion that revenue is growing while they are cutting taxes. I will like to see what happens to revenue when taxes are cut and effect of borrowing is controlled.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    True. The growing economy should have led to higher tax revenues. Now if the economy was contracting, you may have a valid explanation. What do you think could have led to lower tax revenues besides the tax cuts? Trump also bragged about higher tariff revenues (which were included in the US Treasury revenue figures).
    The economy has been separated into different parts, Wall Street has very little to do with Main Street and there are other divisions as well, it is quite possible to grow the real economy while the fake bubble economy contracts, the fake bubble economy will contract or pop eventually anyway and growing the real economy is healthy and will help you to deal with the failure of the fake bubble economy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    I think we have reached that point. Now govt borrowing and spending which actually grows the economy in the interim gives the illusion that revenue is growing while they are cutting taxes. I will like to see what happens to revenue when taxes are cut and effect of borrowing is controlled.
    You don't get it.

    Calvin Coolidge's scientific taxation holds taxes low enough that taxation does not inhibit private enterprise. Given time for private investment to invest, that results in more businesses which can then also be taxed at that low rate.

    Coolidge was actually smart enough to know that government investment does not result in that much growth. And it doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The economy has been separated into different parts, Wall Street has very little to do with Main Street and there are other divisions as well, it is quite possible to grow the real economy while the fake bubble economy contracts, the fake bubble economy will contract or pop eventually anyway and growing the real economy is healthy and will help you to deal with the failure of the fake bubble economy.
    So Wall Street caused Federal tax revenues to go down (which was the question)? Stock losses? How much did stocks decline during 2018?

    What do you think could have led to lower tax revenues besides the tax cuts?
    S&P 500 started 2018 at 2,239 points. It ended the year at 2,674- up 19%. Nope- it wasn't Wall Street which led to lower tax revenues.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So Wall Street caused Federal tax revenues to go down (which was the question)? Stock losses? How much did stocks decline during 2018?



    S&P 500 started 2018 at 2,239 points. It ended the year at 2,674- up 19%. Nope- it wasn't Wall Street which led to lower tax revenues.
    Stock prices aren't the only thing involved in the fake bubble economy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Stock prices aren't the only thing involved in the fake bubble economy.
    So you don't have an explanation as to why tax revenues are lower- except that it could not have possibly been the tax cuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Because you think there are no other factors that affect the economy and revenue?

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So you don't have an explanation as to why tax revenues are lower- except that it could not have possibly been the tax cuts.
    You have nothing showing it was the tax cuts.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You don't get it.

    Calvin Coolidge's scientific taxation holds taxes low enough that taxation does not inhibit private enterprise
    Taxes of any percentage other than 0 will inhibit private enterprise to some extent. The lower you go, the lower the effect, so tthe only rate that would not inhibit private enterprise is 0.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Given time for private investment to invest, that results in more businesses which can then also be taxed at that low rate.
    But if the tax is low enough then no matter how well private business do, revenue will be reduced. This is what I am talking about. You keep cutting taxes and u reach a point that the overall revenue for the govt will just not be enough to fun the federal govt.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Coolidge was actually smart enough to know that government investment does not result in that much growth. And it doesn't.
    Govt investment in the society using borrowed money will grow the economy. Maybe not as much as if private enterprise was doing the investing but infusion of money into an economy will grow it. There are very rare exceptions, like investment in say drugs and pornography which leaves the working people hooked on it instead of going out to be productive individuals

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You have nothing showing it was the tax cuts.
    If revenue is down, that is going to be due to either of two things (or some combination of them). One, lower tax rates. Check. That happened. The other is a shrinking tax base- the economy. Unless the economy was shrinking, it must be the taxes. The economy is growing- not shrinking so we can rule that out. The tax base has not shrunk. What other ways is that (lower revenues) possible?
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-13-2019 at 03:34 PM.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If revenue is down, that is going to be due to either of two things (or some combination of them). One, lower tax rates. Check. That happened. The other is a shrinking tax base- the economy. Unless the economy was shrinking, it must be the taxes. The economy is growing- not shrinking so we can rule that out. The tax base has not shrunk. What other ways is that (lower revenues) possible?
    LOL

    You and your anti-Trump buddies post bad economic news all the time but now that you want to blame the tax cuts the economy is great?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL

    You and your anti-Trump buddies post bad economic news all the time but now that you want to blame the tax cuts the economy is great?
    Changing the topic because you are unable to answer the question. Thanks for trying anyways.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Changing the topic because you are unable to answer the question. Thanks for trying anyways.


    I already answered the question.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Taxes of any percentage other than 0 will inhibit private enterprise to some extent. The lower you go, the lower the effect, so tthe only rate that would not inhibit private enterprise is 0.



    But if the tax is low enough then no matter how well private business do, revenue will be reduced. This is what I am talking about. You keep cutting taxes and u reach a point that the overall revenue for the govt will just not be enough to fun the federal govt.
    Hello? The point is the balance--you do not maximize revenue by hiking taxes and strangling your base.

    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Govt investment in the society using borrowed money will grow the economy. Maybe not as much as if private enterprise was doing the investing but infusion of money into an economy will grow it.
    Yes. But since government "investment" isn't--it seldom or never creates a profitable system--where does the economy go if and when the sent is paid back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post


    I already answered the question.
    No you didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Hello? The point is the balance--you do not maximize revenue by hiking taxes and strangling your base.



    Yes. But since government "investment" isn't--it seldom or never creates a profitable system--where does the economy go if and when the sent is paid back?



    No you didn't.
    And I said that if you cut taxes after the equilibrum point is reached then it will lead to a reduction in revenue. The economy will be doing gangbusters but the govt will get smaller and smaller portion of the economic winfall as the tax rates goes down.

    Doesn't matter if this investment is not profitable, it will still grow the economy even. This growth will lead to increase in tax revenue giving the illusion that revenue is increasing while the govt is cutting taxes

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I don't think history supports you here. When there was no income tax, federal spending was about 2% of GDP. Generally, increases in revenue have enabled increases in spending.
    The spending came before the taxes though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I don't think history supports you here. When there was no income tax, federal spending was about 2% of GDP. Generally, increases in revenue have enabled increases in spending.
    First income taxes were implemented in 1862 to support the Civil War. Spending lead to the increase in taxes in that case. Spending has pretty much been divorced from revenues for quite a while now.

    https://www.infoplease.com/business-...-united-states

    In 1862, in order to support the Civil War effort, Congress enacted the nation's first income tax law. It was a forerunner of our modern income tax in that it was based on the principles of graduated, or progressive, taxation and of withholding income at the source. During the Civil War, a person earning from $600 to $10,000 per year paid tax at the rate of 3%. Those with incomes of more than $10,000 paid taxes at a higher rate

  20. #77
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What would be a "debt free note"?
    I said it right in my post.. a United States Note. How do you feel about us issuing United States Notes instead of Federal Reserve Notes which have to be backed by debt?

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    With the Demoncrats holding the House he will be lucky to get this.

    If he ever gets a Congress with enough conservatives to overcome the left and the RINOs we may see actual cuts.
    The only way that is going to happen is to stop supporting the Republican party.
    The actual fiscal conservatives can be counted on your fingers. A grand total only 7 between both houses of Congress voted to cut actual overall spending on 2018.
    (5 in the house: Justin Amash, Thomas Massie, James Duncan, Raul Labrador, Morgan Griffith; 2 in the Senate: Rand Paul, Mike Lee).
    And even if we were able to replace all the rest of the Republicans gain a majority, the fiscal idiot Trump would probably veto it so he could get his war and empire budget increases, military increase, Homeland Security increase, NSA increases, and foreign welfare for Israel, etc.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    The only way that is going to happen is to stop supporting the Republican party.
    The actual fiscal conservatives can be counted on your fingers. A grand total only 7 between both houses of Congress voted to cut actual overall spending on 2018.
    (5 in the house: Justin Amash, Thomas Massie, James Duncan, Raul Labrador, Morgan Griffith; 2 in the Senate: Rand Paul, Mike Lee).
    And even if we were able to replace all the rest of the Republicans gain a majority, the fiscal idiot Trump would probably veto it so he could get his war and empire budget increases, military increase, Homeland Security increase, NSA increases, and foreign welfare for Israel, etc.
    Let me know when you find a viable alternative to either Trump or the Republican party.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Let me know when you find a viable alternative to either Trump or the Republican party.
    SS wisdom - support evil and stupidity because you have to. You have no other viable alternative.
    Let me know SS's support of idiot Trump and big government spendthrift Republican party replaces all 51 Republican "RINOs" in the Senate and all 190 "RINOs" in the House, and leads to any actual reduction in the debt.

    Answer key: Never
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    SS wisdom - support evil and stupidity because you have to. You have no other viable alternative.
    Let me know SS's support of idiot Trump and big government spendthrift Republican party replaces all 51 Republican "RINOs" in the Senate and all 190 "RINOs" in the House, and leads to any actual reduction in the debt.

    Answer key: Never
    I support the best available option to do the most good and stop the most bad.

    I vote 3rd party when they are the best option and I vote Republican when they are the best option.

    We might actually get some reduction in the debt if Republicans had a large enough majority that they didn't have the excuse of needing to compromise with the Demoncrats.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We might actually get some reduction in the debt if Republicans had a large enough majority that they didn't have the excuse of needing to compromise with the Demoncrats.
    I wish that were true but the Republicans (Should officially change its name to RINO party) proved otherwise. It is a foolish fantasy of wishful thinking after they have repeatedly proved otherwise. They had solid majorities in both the House and Senate plus the presidency, yet they gave us record breaking deficits and debt. They proved worse spendthrifts than the Democrats - bigger budgets, bigger debts, bigger deficits, no fiscal responsibility whatsoever. It was horrendous.
    And no it was not because of a handful of "RINOs." It was the whole dang party - 98.3% of them - the leadership, the rank and file , everyone. The party was complicit except for exactly 7 between both houses. They proved themselves liars and betrayers. Giving the RINO party even more RINOs to add to their spendthrift majority they already had won't do squat. The inescapable reality is there is no viable hope of fiscal responsibility from the Republican party, any more than the Democrats. Collapse is the only thing that appears will stop this runaway debtocracy.
    Last edited by AZJoe; 03-31-2019 at 05:32 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    I wish that were true but the Republicans (Should officially change its name to RINO party) proved otherwise. It is a foolish fantasy of wishful thinking after they have repeatedly proved otherwise. They had solid majorities in both the House and Senate plus the presidency, yet they gave us record breaking deficits and debt. They proved worse spendthrifts than the Democrats - bigger budgets, bigger debts, bigger deficits, no fiscal responsibility whatsoever. It was horrendous.
    And no it was not because of a handful of "RINOs." It was the whole dang party - 98.3% of them - the leadership, the rank and file , everyone. The party was complicit except for exactly 7 between both houses. They proved themselves liars and betrayers. Giving the RINO party even more RINOs to add to their spendthrift majority they already had won't do squat. The inescapable reality is there is no viable hope of fiscal responsibility from the Republican party, any more than the Democrats. Collapse is the only thing that appears will stop this runaway debtocracy.
    They never had 60 votes in the Senate and they used that as an excuse to be "forced" to compromise with the Demoncrats about everything.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They never had 60 votes in the Senate and they used that as an excuse to be "forced" to compromise with the Demoncrats about everything.
    Under "Reconciliation" they had a chance to do it with a simple majority- 51 votes in the Senate. No compromise necessary. They failed. Can't blame anybody but their own party.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Under "Reconciliation" they had a chance to do it with a simple majority- 51 votes in the Senate. No compromise necessary. They failed. Can't blame anybody but their own party.
    "Reconciliation" has its own limitations that were used as an excuse.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They never had 60 votes in the Senate and they used that as an excuse to be "forced" to compromise with the Demoncrats about everything.
    'OMG. What lame excuses for incompetence, deceit, fiscal irresponsibility. Spending starts in the house. The spending proposals by the senate were atrocious, the spending proposals by Trump were atrocious.

    There was no senate filibuster to overcome. They never even put forth or proposed any budget reduction, any decifit elimination, and debt reduction. Zip, zilch. Their "compromise" was let's propose record breaking nation destroying deficits exceeding those what even the democrats couldn't do when they controlled both houses and the presidency. Let's push "our spending boondoggles" plus "their spending boondoggles". That is not a compromise. That's a fiscal rape.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    'OMG. What lame excuses for incompetence, deceit, fiscal irresponsibility. Spending starts in the house. The spending proposals by the senate were atrocious, the spending proposals by Trump were atrocious.

    There was no senate filibuster to overcome. They never even put forth or proposed any budget reduction, any decifit elimination, and debt reduction. Zip, zilch. Their "compromise" was let's propose record breaking nation destroying deficits exceeding those that even the democrats couldn't do when they controlled both house. Let's push "our spending boondoggles" plus "their spending boondoggles". That is not a compromise. That's a fiscal rape.
    I know, but the RINOs could claim that they had to preemptively compromise because they didn't have 60 votes.
    I'm not defending them, I'm explaining how they get away with it.
    The average voter is dumb enough to accept their excuses.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I know, but the RINOs could claim that they had to preemptively compromise because they didn't have 60 votes.
    Since that's what you're claiming, I guess that makes you the RINO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm not defending them, I'm explaining how they get away with it.
    You're defending them and, as usual, defending Trump most of all.


    I'd love to hear how the lack of a supermajority in Congress somehow forced Trump to submit the largest ever budget request in the history of the nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Since that's what you're claiming, I guess that makes you the RINO.



    You're defending them and, as usual, defending Trump most of all.


    I'd love to hear how the lack of a supermajority in Congress somehow forced Trump to submit the largest ever budget request in the history of the nation.
    LOL

    Explaining is not defending.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL

    Explaining is not defending.
    As always, the LOLs and emojis come out when you run into a topic that your talking points do not cover.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

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