Apparent Paradox ?

[pcosmar]

That's just... so... um... helpful?

Puts me in mind of Job's friends.

[lilymc]

You say God engineers every little thing that happens. So God micromanages every sin that is committed, makes it happen, judges others for what He has done, and calls it justice. And this proverb, which says man screws up because he us foolish, and unjustly blames God for his own foolishness, must therefore be misinformation. Like Jesus' parables, and the book of Enoch.

Exactly. And this may be a controversial thing to say, but I believe that sort of hard-core Calvinism is more than a mere misinterpretation of Scripture. It's satanic. Who else but the enemy of God (the devil himself) would want to portray the God in such a horrendous way? A diabolical monster Puppeteer, who causes billions of people to do horrible things, then sends them to a fiery hell for doing precisely what he made them do. A twisted, anti-freedom, tyrannical God who is so insecure that he must micromanage everything and disallow free will. Does that sound like God or another spiritual entity we all know about? I think many of us here know the answer to that question.

I don't think anybody believes in the same religion you do. Christians believe God is just. You go around saying God makes us do the foolish things we do, which means God commits all sin. And, yes, using that thing you tout, then scorn, which you claim to use, but never do--logic--that's what that means. To say what you avow is to say it's reasonable and just to pull the trigger, then claim you are innocent of murder because you didn't touch the victim--the bullet did..

Amen. The ironic thing is that SF has accused a few people here of being misled by a cult, but his belief system has almost all the characteristics of a cult. It certainly warps minds, because hard-core Calvinists throw logic, common sense and their conscience out the window to instead believe horribly twisted ideas, based on cherry-picked scripture.

You say God not only tempts men, He causes--forces--men to sin, and therefore commits sins by proxy. No, you're right, you don't believe in the God I know, and read about in the Bible. Your god personally does all things that are done, both good and bad, then demands praise for the good things and punishes those who even say he did the bad things. That's no religion based on the Bible. That's a sinner perversely trying to get his favorite sin declared to be some kind of justice.

Not only that, but as SF openly admitted, his belief system causes its adherents to dismiss outreach or evangelism, because there's no point in sharing God's love or the good news of the gospel with puppets who have no choice either way. When it comes to the so-called elect or the damned, there's no point in anything that we do, according to his belief system… which is precisely what the enemy of God would want us to believe.

Either that's exactly what you will do, and do all the time, or you're piss poor at explaining--and maybe understanding--your own dogma. So, God creates people having decided in advance if they're to be saved or not, then puts them through a succession of experiences--many of them evil and painful--and directs their every reaction, then blames them for the reactions God made them have, or praises Himself for their reactions if they please Him, then bestows the Grace that was granted to some before any of 'em were born.

So, the evil and painful experiences that were microengineered and inserted in the middle of that, between the granting of Grace and the bestowal of Grace--it accomplishes what, exactly?

You need to get a grip on your own dogma before you continue wandering the internet, telling everyone you're the only one who 'gets it'. Yes, I have at the very least a speck in my eye. What about that big stick in yours?

Thank you. + rep

Nah we just need to put on our gospel armour because this is to be expected in the times we are living.

Ephesians 6:10-18 (KJV)

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

~ Amen

Yes… I agree that we must daily put on our spiritual armor. And pray for those who may be on the fence and in the position to be misled. I love your daily verse thread, and every once in a while a good thread will come up. But unfortunately this place is usually nothing but a hot bed of strife, misrepresentation and misinformation.

I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic right now… Maybe we can change this section, try some new things. In my opinion we should not even entertain those who don't want to do anything but debate Calvinism. It's already been done at least 50 trillion times, and it never gets anywhere. I'll PM a few of you with some ideas for new content around here, haha.

[osan]

Apparent Paradox or Contradictions ?
I do not think that the bible contradicts itself. It does not.
And I am further convinced that any apparent contradictions are simply a misunderstanding..

The concept of Trinity is one such that folks stumble at,, Father,Son,and Holy Spirit,, all as one God.
Simple to those that believe.

another it the Predestination/Free Will paradox. It seems to be difficult for some to grasp..but I see no paradox.
They both flow together seamlessly,, being the Will of God.

It is my belief that the whole known bible (even without removed books),, balances itself. It still carries the message of salvation and redemption,, and food for spiritual growth.

Personally I think much of the division comes from old errors,, and as people discover truth,, some hold on to and teach the error.
and mostly about the mechanics of (or their misunderstanding of) things they barely understand.



There is NO Paradox, though it may appear so through a glass darkly.

Free Will and Predestination Coexist Seamlessly .

I mean no offense, but IMO 99% of the bible as it stands is worthless poo. Allow me to clarify, that you not need work too hard not to take offense.

The bible is a translation of a translation of a translation of a...

To put it in the words of, IIRC, Rabbi Cooperman, "translation is betrayal". I could not agree more.

But it goes far beyond mere linguistic translation. Even in the original tongues, there is semantic drift. My common example runs something like this: were I go get into my time machine and go back to even Shakespearian England and tell even the most erudite men that Michael Jackson was "bad", they would assume I was speaking of an evil man, when in fact I was heaping upon him colloquial praise as being very much the opposite. Calling him "cool" would likely give rise to the notion that is not particularly friendly. And so forth. In a mere 400 years, the changes in the vernacular are so extreme that most people today are unable to read the works of Bill and grasp the meaning beyond the most vague notions that this one loves that one and hates the other one. The true and detailed semantic nuances are wholly lost on them.

Now imagine compounding this error propagation by an addition 1600 years (New Testament) and through actual linguistic conversions from Aramaic, ancient Greek and Hebrew, Latin, etc. into intermediary translations into German, old English, then to middle English, and perhaps even once again into current colloquial English. I can guaRONtee that much of the essential meaning is lost. This is not God's foible, but that of men.

For me, the single saving grace that forgives all the rest is the Golden Rule. It is so simple and so intuitively obvious that it is nearly impossible to screw up the translation. Beyond this, I find the bible unreadable. It is painful and torturous to endure - especially Genesis with the pointlessly long litanies of who begat whom. It may have been important to the Hebrew, but I could give a damn about it. The Golden Rule is, in a word, perfect. As such, it serves as all the evidence I will ever need of God's existence and good instruction. If that sliver of faith in insufficient, then He should have hired better translators.

R|There are other easter eggs here and there as well, even in the OT. I take what value I can exact from those and I regard the rest as dregs to be ignored.

Because of the hazards of translation and semantic drift, the question of contradiction or paradox is rendered wholly moot. It just doesn't matter. Take the gems, for they are very much worthwhile. Discard the rest.

For those who use the "inspired word of God" ploy, I say FEH! If such is the case, God has done a poor job of marketing and has no business sending one such as myself to eternal damnation on the basis of insufficient faith because God engineered me from personality to intellect. If my intellect is insufficient, that's on Him, just as it is if the nature of my being is to carefully examine statements for meaning in a more-or-less scientific manner. There is no justice in making a snake that bites and then punishing it when it lives in accord with that nature.

For those of you who are able to make good sense of what for me is gibberish, I salute your abilities, revel in joy for you, and find myself envious of a capacity I will never have. As for me, I remain faithful to the nature God saw fit to build into me.

As for going to hell, I already know that is where I am headed if such a place exists, but not for reasons of insufficient faith.

As an elucidation of principles, the bible is good. As a history, it sucks terribly, as is the case for most of the allegorical content, though there are exceptions.

[heavenlyboy34]

I mean no offense, but IMO 99% of the bible as it stands is worthless poo. Allow me to clarify, that you not need work too hard not to take offense.

The bible is a translation of a translation of a translation of a...

To put it in the words of, IIRC, Rabbi Cooperman, "translation is betrayal". I could not agree more.

But it goes far beyond mere linguistic translation. Even in the original tongues, there is semantic drift. My common example runs something like this: were I go get into my time machine and go back to even Shakespearian England and tell even the most erudite men that Michael Jackson was "bad", they would assume I was speaking of an evil man, when in fact I was heaping upon him colloquial praise as being very much the opposite. Calling him "cool" would likely give rise to the notion that is not particularly friendly. And so forth. In a mere 400 years, the changes in the vernacular are so extreme that most people today are unable to read the works of Bill and grasp the meaning beyond the most vague notions that this one loves that one and hates the other one. The true and detailed semantic nuances are wholly lost on them.

Now imagine compounding this error propagation by an addition 1600 years (New Testament) and through actual linguistic conversions from Aramaic, ancient Greek and Hebrew, Latin, etc. into intermediary translations into German, old English, then to middle English, and perhaps even once again into current colloquial English. I can guaRONtee that much of the essential meaning is lost. This is not God's foible, but that of men.

For me, the single saving grace that forgives all the rest is the Golden Rule. It is so simple and so intuitively obvious that it is nearly impossible to screw up the translation. Beyond this, I find the bible unreadable. It is painful and torturous to endure - especially Genesis with the pointlessly long litanies of who begat whom. It may have been important to the Hebrew, but I could give a damn about it. The Golden Rule is, in a word, perfect. As such, it serves as all the evidence I will ever need of God's existence and good instruction. If that sliver of faith in insufficient, then He should have hired better translators.

R|There are other easter eggs here and there as well, even in the OT. I take what value I can exact from those and I regard the rest as dregs to be ignored.

Because of the hazards of translation and semantic drift, the question of contradiction or paradox is rendered wholly moot. It just doesn't matter. Take the gems, for they are very much worthwhile. Discard the rest.

For those who use the "inspired word of God" ploy, I say FEH! If such is the case, God has done a poor job of marketing and has no business sending one such as myself to eternal damnation on the basis of insufficient faith because God engineered me from personality to intellect. If my intellect is insufficient, that's on Him, just as it is if the nature of my being is to carefully examine statements for meaning in a more-or-less scientific manner. There is no justice in making a snake that bites and then punishing it when it lives in accord with that nature.

For those of you who are able to make good sense of what for me is gibberish, I salute your abilities, revel in joy for you, and find myself envious of a capacity I will never have. As for me, I remain faithful to the nature God saw fit to build into me.

As for going to hell, I already know that is where I am headed if such a place exists, but not for reasons of insufficient faith.

As an elucidation of principles, the bible is good. As a history, it sucks terribly, as is the case for most of the allegorical content, though there are exceptions.

You're actually mostly right, and that's been widely known for centuries. That's why Sola Sriptura is an epic fail and why we need the help of the Church Fathers to understand WTF the scriptures mean.

[pcosmar]

I mean no offense,
,<snip for brevity>

For those of you who are able to make good sense of what for me is gibberish, I salute your abilities, revel in joy for you, and find myself envious of a capacity I will never have. As for me, I remain faithful to the nature God saw fit to build into me.

I take no offense. was right there once.
And I have always appreciated you eloquence. I love to read,,and some of it is dry and seemingly pointless.

until it opens,, but that is another thing. it is a collection,, some history,, some observations from another time,, a whole lot of really stupid mistakes,, recorded for posterity,, and mixed within are the Words of God.

and yeah,, translations of translations some of which was handed down faithfully word of mouth until writing was invented.
and all with a cohesive central theme.

and that is just what we know of those books that haven't been hidden.

You seem more intelligent than to reject such out of hand,, so I suspect, that like many others you have heard too much of an angry God,, or an absent God,, That is common and sad.

like the state school system,,

[osan]

and that is just what we know of those books that haven't been hidden.

Funny you should mention those...

You seem more intelligent than to reject such out of hand,, so I suspect, that like many others you have heard too much of an angry God,, or an absent God,, That is common and sad.

I haven't rejected them out of hand. I read them and found most of it of no use to me. That which spoke to me, I have retained. I don't buy the angry God narrative.

When I was 17 I did my first trip. While I am no advocate of such things, it is up to each man to choose for himself and for me it was a Godsend because it was on that cold December evening that God spoke to me. No, not like the burning bush, but far more deeply. I saw how God smiles and laughs and I needed that more than perhaps even getting laid. I think it literally saved my life.

The pissy-old drunk model of God is FAIL that arises from those who do not know how to read well or listen to what their senses tell them. I pity such people, for as noisy as my head tends to be, I suspect theirs are far worse.

like the state school system,,

My natural skepticism, not to mention my contrary nature, lead me away from the opinions of the state indoctrinators. I just have way too much "$#@! you" in me whenever anyone tries to sell me something on the demand that I just accept it on face. I remember that was something that stood out to me with the Scientologists when I was yanking their chains during research for an English paper. I SO got an A+++ on that one. Took me about six weeks of dealing with them, and boy was it an eye-opening experience. But that's a story for another time.

Just for the record, I don't judge another man's path to this type of understanding. I may not understand it, or disagree with it, but I will not say they are wrong... unless the beliefs entail and dictate trespass, in which case I start thinking "iron bars". Anyone who advocates for force elicits that response in me.

Faith, understanding, perception... all very tricky deals, so far as I can see.

[pcosmar]

Anyone who advocates for force elicits that response in me.

Faith, understanding, perception... all very tricky deals, so far as I can see.

I started another thread on "revelation Knowledge",, and it sounds like you found some,

“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord hath anointed Me to preach good tidings unto the meek. He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound,

as for Faith,, Atheists have Faith that I'm wrong.

No force, no coercion, no fear tactics,, and I'm not asking donations..
Just Good News.

[osan]

You're actually mostly right, and that's been widely known for centuries. That's why Sola Sriptura is an epic fail and why we need the help of the Church Fathers to understand WTF the scriptures mean.

But who is to say that THEY know what they mean?

If one is going to trust God, then go all the way and don't just put in the "tip". What I mean is this: God will speak to you if you are willing to quiet yourself and listen. I believe this strongly. I do not believe you need a bible to do this, though for some I suppose it is helpful - to each man, his path to the light. That route has never worked for me. But contrary to what most people seem to believe (always despised that John Dunne quote "No man is an island, entire to himself..." BLAH BLAH BLAH... reminds me of the tripe from that shriveled old black witch Maya Angelou... "it takes an entire village to raise a child" - such obvious bull$#@!) I believe God has born into every man all that he needs to go through life with success. That doesn't perforce mean living in a vacuum, mind you, but that in the company of one's fellows, there is no hidden knowledge of such fundamental import that cannot be discovered by any man through the sheer force of will to discover it with open eyes and a quiet heart. THAT is what makes God great and kind. He gave us what we need in our DNA, so to speak. We don't need bibles or qur'ans or vedas or zend avestas, etc. to grasp the innermost knowledge necessary leading the lives of good men. They may be nice additions for some, but they are not essential by any means. And for poor, dumb bastards such as myself, they actually get mostly in the way of understanding because they inject incomprehensible noise into the thought stream.

Mysterious ways, indeed.

[osan]

as for Faith,, Atheists have Faith that I'm wrong.

Every man that has ever lived has been a man of faith, even those who streadfastly and stridently claim otherwise. It is in our nature to be faith-driven. We have little choice, save to die. We are what we are, separate in some sense from that without from us. The interface between within and without is made up of our senses. We see, touch, smell, hear, and taste the world around us and through those intermediaries do we come to know the world. We have faith in our senses. Were it not so, we would become paralyzed in an inability to act because we would never know whether we were doing right.

So in this respect, atheists are amusingly full of $#@!. It is clear to me that they have not considered their positions with any diligence or capacity. I also find the common chest-pounding style of communication droll and ultimately boring. They remind me of Serbs.

No force, no coercion, no fear tactics,, and I'm not asking donations..
Just Good News.

Decent and worthy sentiments for which your goodness should be acknowledged. Consider it so.

[pcosmar]

I believe God has born into every man all that he needs to go through life with success.

I believe so as well,, however we are born into a war zone. a world so corrupted from it's created intent.

and the spirit of man knows that this temporary existence is not all there is. it is imprinted on him.

There are two paths as I see it.. and the choice each has to make. To return to God,, or to hide from him.

to me it seem simple,, but there are still folks hiding in shadows.

[heavenlyboy34]

But who is to say that THEY know what they mean?

If one is going to trust God, then go all the way and don't just put in the "tip". What I mean is this: God will speak to you if you are willing to quiet yourself and listen. I believe this strongly. I do not believe you need a bible to do this, though for some I suppose it is helpful - to each man, his path to the light. That route has never worked for me. But contrary to what most people seem to believe (always despised that John Dunne quote "No man is an island, entire to himself..." BLAH BLAH BLAH... reminds me of the tripe from that shriveled old black witch Maya Angelou... "it takes an entire village to raise a child" - such obvious bull$#@!) I believe God has born into every man all that he needs to go through life with success. That doesn't perforce mean living in a vacuum, mind you, but that in the company of one's fellows, there is no hidden knowledge of such fundamental import that cannot be discovered by any man through the sheer force of will to discover it with open eyes and a quiet heart. THAT is what makes God great and kind. He gave us what we need in our DNA, so to speak. We don't need bibles or qur'ans or vedas or zend avestas, etc. to grasp the innermost knowledge necessary leading the lives of good men. They may be nice additions for some, but they are not essential by any means. And for poor, dumb bastards such as myself, they actually get mostly in the way of understanding because they inject incomprehensible noise into the thought stream.

Mysterious ways, indeed.

There's a lot to be said for that. The illiterate slavs learned from Cyrill and Methodius by way of icons and oratory for a good many years until Cyrill could develop his alphabet to translate the Bible and other documents into Slavonic. And it worked well. These two men are to this day known as "Enlighteners Of The Slavs".

[osan]

I believe so as well,, however we are born into a war zone. a world so corrupted from it's created intent.

It would seem so, at least to my normative eyes.

and the spirit of man knows that this temporary existence is not all there is. it is imprinted on him.

I agree with this.

There are two paths as I see it.. and the choice each has to make. To return to God,, or to hide from him.

But hiding is futile because God is everywhere and everything. Unlike so many, I do not distinguish between God and the rest. It is all one, I suspect, even if I cannot prove it. When I look at a scrap of paper, I see God. Glass of water, God. Dog turd on a NYC sidewalk, God - and I mean no offense in that.

God, whoever or whatever he or it is, stands before us and in our very fabric. To "hide from Him" is to attempt to hide from oneself. It is a silly thing to attempt as it cannot be done.

to me it seem simple,, but there are still folks hiding in shadows.

The illusions of this reality are very compelling. They are that way with good reason... at least to a point so far as myself is concerned. I cannot speak for others.

[Anti Federalist]

I mean no offense, but IMO 99% of the bible as it stands is worthless poo. Allow me to clarify, that you not need work too hard not to take offense.

The bible is a translation of a translation of a translation of a...

To put it in the words of, IIRC, Rabbi Cooperman, "translation is betrayal". I could not agree more.

But it goes far beyond mere linguistic translation. Even in the original tongues, there is semantic drift. My common example runs something like this: were I go get into my time machine and go back to even Shakespearian England and tell even the most erudite men that Michael Jackson was "bad", they would assume I was speaking of an evil man, when in fact I was heaping upon him colloquial praise as being very much the opposite. Calling him "cool" would likely give rise to the notion that is not particularly friendly. And so forth. In a mere 400 years, the changes in the vernacular are so extreme that most people today are unable to read the works of Bill and grasp the meaning beyond the most vague notions that this one loves that one and hates the other one. The true and detailed semantic nuances are wholly lost on them.

Now imagine compounding this error propagation by an addition 1600 years (New Testament) and through actual linguistic conversions from Aramaic, ancient Greek and Hebrew, Latin, etc. into intermediary translations into German, old English, then to middle English, and perhaps even once again into current colloquial English. I can guaRONtee that much of the essential meaning is lost. This is not God's foible, but that of men.

For me, the single saving grace that forgives all the rest is the Golden Rule. It is so simple and so intuitively obvious that it is nearly impossible to screw up the translation. Beyond this, I find the bible unreadable. It is painful and torturous to endure - especially Genesis with the pointlessly long litanies of who begat whom. It may have been important to the Hebrew, but I could give a damn about it. The Golden Rule is, in a word, perfect. As such, it serves as all the evidence I will ever need of God's existence and good instruction. If that sliver of faith in insufficient, then He should have hired better translators.

R|There are other easter eggs here and there as well, even in the OT. I take what value I can exact from those and I regard the rest as dregs to be ignored.

Because of the hazards of translation and semantic drift, the question of contradiction or paradox is rendered wholly moot. It just doesn't matter. Take the gems, for they are very much worthwhile. Discard the rest.

For those who use the "inspired word of God" ploy, I say FEH! If such is the case, God has done a poor job of marketing and has no business sending one such as myself to eternal damnation on the basis of insufficient faith because God engineered me from personality to intellect. If my intellect is insufficient, that's on Him, just as it is if the nature of my being is to carefully examine statements for meaning in a more-or-less scientific manner. There is no justice in making a snake that bites and then punishing it when it lives in accord with that nature.

For those of you who are able to make good sense of what for me is gibberish, I salute your abilities, revel in joy for you, and find myself envious of a capacity I will never have. As for me, I remain faithful to the nature God saw fit to build into me.

As for going to hell, I already know that is where I am headed if such a place exists, but not for reasons of insufficient faith.

As an elucidation of principles, the bible is good. As a history, it sucks terribly, as is the case for most of the allegorical content, though there are exceptions.

[lilymc]

I mean no offense, but IMO 99% of the bible as it stands is worthless poo.

You're actually mostly right, and that's been widely known for centuries.

You believe that the Bible is 99% worthless poo? Not only is that extremely sad, but it doesn't make sense to me coming from a Christian. Don't get me wrong… I believe that God is revealed in a number of ways, not only through scripture. But what is your foundation for Christianity, if you "mostly agree" with osan's rejection of the Bible?

That's why Sola Sriptura is an epic fail and why we need the help of the Church Fathers to understand WTF the scriptures mean.

No we don't. That directly contradicts a number of scriptures, including:

“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true–it is not a lie..”

1 John 2:27


Depending on what you mean by "the church fathers", it has always seemed odd to me the way Catholics and EOs elevate religious officials to such an extent, as if they were almost divine. All genuine believers have the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 3:16, etc.), the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16) and a way to connect with God. In fact, as I've said before, I've known 20-year-olds who had far more wisdom and spiritual maturity than funny hat-wearing religious officials in high places.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean when you say church fathers, because I definitely believe that the writings of the early Christians are very important. I just don't agree that some bishop who lived hundreds of years ago, or some mortal man who the church decided to call a "saint" (all genuine Christians are saints) should be blindly trusted or elevated just because the church says so.

[osan]

“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true–it is not a lie..”

I take it you don't see the trick here, eh? This passage is WIDE OPEN to interpretation. It could mean almost anything. "Holy spirit", to my meager knowledge is defined nowhere in the bible - certainly not in a way that would meet even the lowest standards of rigor. So even if we accept it as true, it still tells you nothing beyond that which is vague. No big sin there, mind you, but a point of which any man should be keenly aware.

Now consider that "the Spirit teaches you". This speaks in strong accord with my own beliefs about God having given us everything we need to live the life of man with propriety, grace, and joy. Witness how any ten men placed together in a room will hold at least eleven interpretations of a given passage. GuaRONtee. Therefore, that passage means different things to different people. The passage says the Holy Spirit will not lead you astray. Therefore, the widely differing interpretations are all valid, including the ones that say "this is gibberish to me".

This all underscores my view that the bible is only one avenue to understanding and that it is not for all people, such as myself. It also illustrates the tricky, dare I say devilish, nature of linguistic communication. And this is why people need to tread lightly where such subjects are concerned. What blossoms with resonance and meaning for some, falls dead for others, yet it is all valid because the Holy Spirit guides each man in his own way toward truth fit to his needs. They may be different from those suited to others. If folks got this clue and accepted it, we would not have crazy people in the middle east, for example, running about sawing the heads off of those with whom they disagree.

[Sonny Tufts]

there's your exact objection [Romans 9:20-24] answered by the Bible.

This isn't an answer. It's a rhetorical device used to shut down the questioner because Paul couldn't come up with a real explanation. Instead of being honest and saying, "I don't know" he essentially says, "God blames people because He can. So shut up and stop asking questions I can't answer."

[euphemia]

Adam and Eve certainly had a choice. The could have chosen not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They definitely had a choice.

And I want to address another point. If there is such a thing as a chosen elect, it really does not seem to stop them from sinning every day. Deliberately choosing to violate forum rules in order to provoke arguments is a sin.

I get that the Bible talks about the elect. These are the saints. The provision for salvation is from the dawn of time, and God has always chosen us. We then choose him.

[pcosmar]

The provision for salvation is from the dawn of time, and God has always chosen us. We then choose him.

and this is the apparent paradox.. Where predestination and Free Will intersect.
Not either or,, but both.

and as for "The Elect",, the term and concept come from a Book that was Banned long ago.. The books of Enoch..
Quoted by Paul and Jude,,

And I will admit that I am not 100% sure,, but I believe that "The Elect" refers to man. Mankind,, or at least all who will be saved of all time..

as opposed to the other creation,, the angels.. Created beings that preexisted man.

Satan wants to destroy man,, God wants to save him..

And there was a War in Heaven.

[heavenlyboy34]

You believe that the Bible is 99% worthless poo? Not only is that extremely sad, but it doesn't make sense to me coming from a Christian. Don't get me wrong… I believe that God is revealed in a number of ways, not only through scripture. But what is your foundation for Christianity, if you "mostly agree" with osan's rejection of the Bible?

No, exactly the opposite. Please read the rest of that post. I believe the Bible is a letter from God to us.



[QUOTE=lilymc;6578062]

No we don't. That directly contradicts a number of scriptures, including:
“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true–it is not a lie..”

1 John 2:27


Depending on what you mean by "the church fathers", it has always seemed odd to me the way Catholics and EOs elevate religious officials to such an extent, as if they were almost divine. All genuine believers have the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 3:16, etc.), the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16) and a way to connect with God. In fact, as I've said before, I've known 20-year-olds who had far more wisdom and spiritual maturity than funny hat-wearing religious officials in high places.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean when you say church fathers, because I definitely believe that the writings of the early Christians are very important. I just don't agree that some bishop who lived hundreds of years ago, or some mortal man who the church decided to call a "saint" (all genuine Christians are saints) should be blindly trusted or elevated just because the church says so.

And that is out of context and not what you think it means. It means without both the work of the Spirit and apostolic doctrine, we would remain in darkness. In the context of the earlier verses the text is about "letting abide in what you which you heard from the beginning"(apostolic teaching).

We don't trust the Fathers "just because"-we trust them because they have legitimate authority in forming Christianity-. Some because they operated in direct apostolic lineage(we see the creation of clergy with direct lineage in Acts), others because they evangelized (such as my patron saint, Cyrill, minister to the slavs). Still others actually formed doctrine and dogma(Augustine, John the Theologian, etc). And so on.

In a sense, the laity do form a Church. They are the Church Militant.

[pcosmar]

In a sense, the laity do form a Church. They are the Church Militant.

Militant.
I like that.

I often think the Church would be better if it had never become legal.
Had it remained an underground and outlawed religion,, It still would have spread.

I often think the believers there(in Rome) should have dusted their heels.

[pcosmar]

[jmdrake]

God is patient TO YOU, not wanting any to perish. Who is the "you" in that passage Pete?

Read the context of the paragraph to see who the "you" is, and then you will have your answer. It is not every single person.

Now I see yet another reason why I took a break from RPF and periodically have too. *sigh*

This is what Sola_Fide left out when he singled in on "you".

but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish

It's amazing that Sola_Fide can see the word "you" but miss the word "anyone" in the same freaking passage! Anyone means...well ANYONE!

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anyone

Definition of anyone

: any person at all

Of course if Sola_Fide weren't banned at the moment he would come back with "But anyone doesn't actually mean anyone. Anyone only means anyone who is a member of the elect. Of course the Bible doesn't actually say that, but since I'm part of the elect I have the right to change the Bible to mean what it actually means as opposed to what the plain text says it means."

Okay...I admit I added that last sentence to what he would actually say. But that's really what he's doing. And...to be fair...everybody does that at some point.

[jmdrake]

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I take it you don't see the trick here, eh? This passage is WIDE OPEN to interpretation. It could mean almost anything. "Holy spirit", to my meager knowledge is defined nowhere in the bible - certainly not in a way that would meet even the lowest standards of rigor. So even if we accept it as true, it still tells you nothing beyond that which is vague. No big sin there, mind you, but a point of which any man should be keenly aware.

A) That's not at all true.

John 4:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever.

Acts 2:3-4 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them

Acts 19:1-7 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[b] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

Acts 8:14-24 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”

The Holy Spirit is defined as the third person of the Trinity. Not understanding that = not knowing whether or not the Trinity exists. The Holy Spirit is not the church. The Holy Spirit is not restricted to official employees of the church. (Technically all Christians are called to be workers in the Lord's vineyard.) The job of the church is to connect sincere Christians to the Holy Spirit that that the body of Christ can grow organically. It is not to pretend to hoard the Holy Spirit and dole it out to members of some elite club.

Now consider that "the Spirit teaches you". This speaks in strong accord with my own beliefs about God having given us everything we need to live the life of man with propriety, grace, and joy. Witness how any ten men placed together in a room will hold at least eleven interpretations of a given passage. GuaRONtee. Therefore, that passage means different things to different people. The passage says the Holy Spirit will not lead you astray. Therefore, the widely differing interpretations are all valid, including the ones that say "this is gibberish to me".

From reading Acts it is clear that people can be baptized Christians and not filled with the Holy Spirit. But the apostles desired all sincere believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The reason Simon's offer was rejected was because he wanted to buy the Holy Spirit and he wanted it for his own selfish ends. (He was a professional magician and he thought the Holy Spirit was a neat trick.)

This all underscores my view that the bible is only one avenue to understanding and that it is not for all people, such as myself. It also illustrates the tricky, dare I say devilish, nature of linguistic communication. And this is why people need to tread lightly where such subjects are concerned. What blossoms with resonance and meaning for some, falls dead for others, yet it is all valid because the Holy Spirit guides each man in his own way toward truth fit to his needs. They may be different from those suited to others. If folks got this clue and accepted it, we would not have crazy people in the middle east, for example, running about sawing the heads off of those with whom they disagree.

The crazy people running around in the middle east cutting off people's heads would agree with you about the "devilish" nature of the Christian Bible. They give some homage to it but claim it was "corrupted" and the Koran is "superior." I don't know if there is anything that looks like a contradiction in the Koran, but on the face of it, one man writing a single book would have an easier time avoiding conflicting passages than a book written over a period of thousands of years with multiple authors.

[jmdrake]

You're actually mostly right, and that's been widely known for centuries. That's why Sola Sriptura is an epic fail and why we need the help of the Church Fathers to understand WTF the scriptures mean.

It's funny how in debates with TER I've found contradictions and room for multiple interpretations in the "Church Fathers." So that's an "epic fail" squared.

Here is a simple matter of faith. Either you believe in that God is real, He really loves you, and he really wants to connect and communicate directly to you, and you accept His promises that He will do just that.....or you don't. That's why Jesus gave the parable of the gifts fathers give their children.

Luke 11:11-13 11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

And Paul continued on that theme.

James 1:5 "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him."

Nowhere in the Bible will you find the verse that says "If you lack wisdom....go to the church and let the priests explain everything to you because you're just not smart enough to understand it all anyway."

[pcosmar]

Nowhere in the Bible will you find the verse that says "If you lack wisdom....go to the church and let the priests explain everything to you because you're just not smart enough to understand it all anyway."

And yet,, that is what I was taught in my youth.