Wells Fargo Bans Cryptocurrency Purchases On Its Credit Cards

[Zippyjuan]

And you will have a whole lot more money to invest if you're not paying off debt. That's my point.

No debt means more net income to invest. More net income means more investment. But it starts with income.

If all your income is going to food, shelter and paying off debt.... What can you invest? That's where tons of US Americans are today.

I agree with that. But you have more control over your expenses than you do on your income. Of course you could work another job. Or reduce what you spend money on. Your grandparents might not have even had a car- now most homes have multiple automobiles. Your parents maybe had a small TV. Now almost every room in a house has one. We pay hundreds for a cell phone plus maybe a hundred or more a month to use it. People grew or cooked their own foods- now we eat out a lot more which costs a lot more. Anthony Bourdain who died recently got his start on his empire by washing dishes and working hard. There are less expensive alternatives. Wants are unlimited.

[devil21]

We have gone though this many times so I won't try to explain it again for you.

Indeed we have, yet you still insist that a piece of paper called a "bank" has credit to extend. A piece of paper does nothing but sit there and be a piece of paper.

[Zippyjuan]

Indeed we have, yet you still insist that a piece of paper called a "bank" has credit to extend. A piece of paper does nothing but sit there and be a piece of paper.

A bank may handle pieces of paper but a bank itself is not a piece of paper.

[devil21]

A bank may handle pieces of paper but a bank itself is not a piece of paper.

Of course it is. It's a piece of paper with articles of incorporation on it filed with a Secretary of State. A bank is not a building, a bank is not a human or an animal. A piece of paper. That's it. A building can not issue credit. A piece of paper can not issue credit. A building just stands there being a building. A piece of paper just sits there being a piece of paper. It is the human that goes to the building who pledges his future labor. Future labor=credit. The other brainwashed humans in the building create accounting entries that issue the human "borrower" their own credit, their own future labor.

Here's a fun mental exercise. A branch recently closed near me. Is it still a bank? If laundry machines take up the space next, is it still a bank?

[Zippyjuan]

Of course it is. It's a piece of paper with articles of incorporation on it filed with a Secretary of State. A bank is not a building, a bank is not a human or an animal. A piece of paper. That's it. A building can not issue credit. A piece of paper can not issue credit. A building just stands there being a building. A piece of paper just sits there being a piece of paper. It is the human that goes to the building who pledges his future labor. Future labor=credit. The other brainwashed humans in the building create accounting entries that issue the human "borrower" their own credit, their own future labor.

Let me get this straight. A bank can issue credit. Right? And a bank is a piece of paper (which I disagree with). So why can't a piece of paper issue credit (I agree it can't)? Or are you saying banks can't issue any credit? Nobody can borrow anything?

a piece of paper called a "bank" has credit to extend.

A piece of paper can not issue credit.

The money for the credit comes from money the bank has- depositors money. The money you pay back the loan with does come from your labor (unless you can get the money from someplace else). And loans are not ten times deposits.

[devil21]

Let me get this straight. A bank can issue credit. Right? And a bank is a piece of paper. So why can't a piece of paper issue credit? Or are you saying banks can't issue any credit? Nobody can borrow anything?

No, a bank alone can't issue credit. A bank issues you your own credit, in the form of the bank's private currency, then charges you for it. If a bank, a lowly piece of paper, could do anything itself, why does it need your signature (or coming soon, your retina scan/biometric)?

[devil21]

Don't forget the fun mental exercise:

A branch recently closed near me. Is it still a bank? If laundry machines take up the space next, is it still a bank?

[Zippyjuan]

No, a bank alone can't issue credit. A bank issues you your own credit, in the form of the bank's private currency, then charges you for it. If a bank, a lowly piece of paper, could do anything itself, why does it need your signature (or coming soon, your retina scan/biometric)?

The bank gives you money you don't have but want. You sign a promise that you will pay them back or there will be penalties listed on the paper you sign. It is a contract. It indicates you agree to the terms. They also sign it. Unless both agree to the terms, no loan is issued. The bank isn't the piece of paper- the bank is who you borrowed the money from. The paper describes the transaction.

in the form of the bank's private currency,

I thought they used US dollars (at least in this country).

[devil21]

The bank gives you money you don't have but want. You sign a promise that you will pay them back or there will be penalties listed on the paper you sign. It is a contract. It indicates you agree to the terms. They also sign it. Unless both agree to the terms, no loan is issued. The bank isn't the piece of paper- the bank is who you borrowed the money from. The paper describes the transaction.

A living man can not borrow anything from a piece of paper or a building. Buildings and paper have nothing to lend. Remember Zip, "money"/currency in the current system is nothing more than a FUTURE PROMISE TO PAY. Currency is literally future labor. Your own future labor. Therefore, a "bank" issues you your own future labor, your own promise to pay. Your own credit. Pretty simple, really.

I thought they used US dollars (at least in this country).

Federal Reserve Notes. Says who owns it right on it.

Fun side note: The word "signature" derives from the word "sin". Committing sin by your own hand. Hmm, sounds like a rabbit hole...

[Zippyjuan]

A living man can not borrow anything from a piece of paper or a building. Buildings and paper have nothing to lend. Remember Zip, "money"/currency in the current system is nothing more than a FUTURE PROMISE TO PAY. Currency is literally future labor. Your own future labor. Therefore, a "bank" issues you your own future labor, your own promise to pay. Pretty simple, really.

Which is why banks are not a piece of paper as you claimed. You borrow from the people who own/ run the bank. And they borrowed that money from depositors who loaned it to them. That is what a deposit is- you loaning money to the bank.

Federal Reserve Notes. Says who owns it right on it.

So if I borrow from Wells Fargo bank, I am not getting the bank's (Wells Fargo's) private currency as claimed.

in the form of the bank's private currency,

Currency is literally future labor.

So when you get paid at work, you aren't getting paid for work you already did but for work you may do for him in the future.

I agree that money is based on labor- it is a medium of exchange your employer gives you for your services and you can then exchange that with another business for goods and services rather than having to perform yet another task for them- you don't have to pull weeds for the apple grower to give you apples. You are kind of right- a loan is trading future consumption/ labor for getting something right now. But all currency isn't based on your future labor- only the loan is. You already performed the labor for the other currency you have.

[devil21]

Which is why banks are not a piece of paper as you claimed. You borrow from the people who own/ run the bank. And they borrowed that money from depositors who loaned it to them. That is what a deposit is- you loaning money to the bank.

Do you even fractional reserve, bro?

So if I borrow from Wells Fargo bank, I am not getting the bank's (Wells Fargo's) private currency.

Wells Fargo is a member of the Federal Reserve System, yes or no?

So when you get paid at work, you aren't getting paid for work you already did but for work you may do for him in the future.

A payment of something in the future, though you aren't getting paid since currency and computer digits is not money. Money is gold and other hard assets.
"Gold is money, all else is credit." - JP Morgan
He meant that currency is future promises that may or may not be fulfilled. I think the future payment would refer to hard assets like gold, land, resources and the payee is the owners of the private currency. I'm not prepared to go down the Soylent Green road just yet.

I agree that money is based on labor- it is a medium of exchange your employer gives you and you can then exchange that with another business for goods and services rather than having to perform yet another task for them- you don't have to pull weeds for the apple grower to give you apples. You are kind of right- a loan is trading future consumption/ labor for getting something right now. But all currency isn't based on your future labor- only the loan is.

What currency, aside from the hard assets like gold, is not a future promise to pay?

[Zippyjuan]

What currency, aside from the hard assets like gold, is not a future promise to pay?

If you decide to use gold as a currency (medium of exchange) it will have the same properties as currencies in use today. If currency today is as you say "future labor" then a gold coin will also be "future labor". It is your medium of exchange between the labor you produce and the goods and services you hope to acquire. If your employer gives you a $20 paper note how is it different than if he gives you a piece of metal with $20 stamped on it? Both have value because people agree that they have value.

Money is gold and other hard assets.

"Gold is money, all else is credit." - JP Morgan

If only gold is money, why don't people us it as money today (money being a medium of exchange)? Do people get paid in gold? Do you use gold to buy goods and services? That is a nice slogan but not today's reality. People don't want to carry gold around to buy things with. Gold CAN be used as money (and has in the past) but isn't today.

[devil21]

If you decide to use gold as a currency (medium of exchange) it will have the same properties as currencies in use today. If currency today is as you say "future labor" then a gold coin will also be "future labor". It is your medium of exchange between the labor you produce and the goods and services you hope to acquire. If your employer gives you a $20 paper note how is it different than if he gives you a piece of metal with $20 stamped on it? Both have value because people agree that they have value.

Actually, gold is different because gold is a representation of past labor already expended, not future labor promised to someone else. Gold and other hard assets are payment for work already done because they are a "store of energy expended". A true store of wealth, unlike paper or digital notes (look up legal definition of a "note") that represent future promises of energy expended. I might add, future promises that can be reneged and/or defaulted on by the counter-party. Hence why gold is money and has intrinsic value and everything else is credit. No counter-party can renege on physical gold in your hand. JP Morgan knew this, as do his disciples. They won't tell you that though...

If only gold is money, why don't people us it as money today (money being a medium of exchange)? Do people get paid in gold? Do you use gold to buy goods and services? That is a nice slogan but not today's reality. People don't want to carry gold around to buy things with. Gold CAN be used as money (and has in the past) but isn't today.

That's like asking Dolores in season one of Westworld why she drops the can of beans outside of the market at the same time every morning.

[Kilrain]

So his basic argument (besides agreeing with me on paying them off on time) is that you can't get rich using them and that the rewards they offer aren't that great. Nobody claims you will get rich by using them. It is more a convenience thing. Like anything else, use wisely.

Nope, his basic argument is that credit cards have no upside, but a lot of downside. They get people in a world of hurt when they slip up and don't pay them off on time every month, but even if you do pay off your balance on time and avoid paying interest, they're still costing you a lot of money. Using credit cards is like gambling with no chance of winning. You lose every time.

As for convenience, it's really not something you should be looking for in a payment method as a consumer. The less friction there is when paying for things, the more things people buy. So the smart thing for a consumer is to make it as difficult as possible (within reason) to pay for things. And besides, a debit card gives you all the convenience of a credit card, without the risk of getting into debt.

[angelatc]

Of course it is. It's a piece of paper with articles of incorporation on it filed with a Secretary of State. A bank is not a building, a bank is not a human or an animal. A piece of paper. That's it. A building can not issue credit. A piece of paper can not issue credit. A building just stands there being a building. A piece of paper just sits there being a piece of paper. It is the human that goes to the building who pledges his future labor. Future labor=credit. The other brainwashed humans in the building create accounting entries that issue the human "borrower" their own credit, their own future labor.

Here's a fun mental exercise. A branch recently closed near me. Is it still a bank? If laundry machines take up the space next, is it still a bank?

Is English not your first language? The bank is a building, and the administrators are called bankers.

[devil21]

Is English not your first language? The bank is a building, and the administrators are called bankers.

Ok, Dolores.