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Thread: Are Retailers Breaking the Law?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    as an interested yet detached observer,, it could be good.

    I am certainly hoping some Gun Rights Lawyers could spin this into at least blowback against stupid Boycotters.

    I would love to see it Blow up into pieces and those pieces bite everyone in the ass.
    Need something to swing the pendulum.
    I'd use the cake bakers argument:

    You either have the right to conduct business (or not to) with who you want, when you want, and why you want, or you do not.

    Under current law, you do not have this right.



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  3. #62
    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.”
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
    There's the necessary law. Since gun sellers are acting, as Pete has pointed out, as licensed agents of the Federal government, then I believe a lawsuit could be brought on these merits.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I think there is a strong argument that a lawsuit could be brought, Pete. I think it should be initiated by a fine upstanding 20 yr. old Marine with some combat duty under his belt. Just walk into the store in dress blues and offer to purchase a semi-automatic rifle. Perhaps with his father standing next to him also offering to purchase one to show the discrimination inherent. Fully videoed and documented.

    A lawsuit would require an attempted purchase to have standing. The "Muslim Free Zone" gun shop case was thrown out because no Muslim ever tried to enter the store let alone buy a gun; not for lack of merit, but for lack of locus standi

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    FFL Dealers are NOT private companies.

    They are an arm of Government via License.. They are a Government Agent when they fill out forms.
    So by this "reasoning", plumbers, electricians, and barbers are agents of the state or city because they are licensed. So are taxi drivers, commercial truck drivers, and ordinary folks with driver's licenses. Wow, who knew there were so many government agents out there?
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    So by this "reasoning", plumbers, electricians, and barbers are agents of the state or city because they are licensed. So are taxi drivers, commercial truck drivers, and ordinary folks with driver's licenses. Wow, who knew there were so many government agents out there?
    I knew.
    Control of production by the state. Textbook fait accompli


    Better question is,, why so many don't know?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    A lawsuit would require an attempted purchase to have standing. The "Muslim Free Zone" gun shop case was thrown out because no Muslim ever tried to enter the store let alone buy a gun; not for lack of merit, but for lack of locus standi
    Anyone know a young serviceman? or just out of service at 20..that would be perfect.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    A lawsuit would require an attempted purchase to have standing. The "Muslim Free Zone" gun shop case was thrown out because no Muslim ever tried to enter the store let alone buy a gun; not for lack of merit, but for lack of locus standi
    Absolutely. As I mentioned earlier, preferably by 18-21 yr. old member of the Armed Forces.

  10. #68
    https://reason.com/volokh/2018/02/28...ell-rifles-and


    Can Gun Stores Refuse to Sell Rifles and Shotguns to Under-21-Year-Olds?

    A student asked me over lunch: Some stores have announced that they won't sell rifles and shotguns to under-21-year-olds. Is that legal, given that federal law only limits sales of handguns to under-21-year-olds, and doesn't ban sales of long guns to 18-to-20-year-olds?

    [1.] Stores' own age limits don't violate the Second Amendment, because the Second Amendment limits only the government, not private companies. Likewise for the Equal Protection Clause (plus the Equal Protection Clause generally doesn't forbid even governmental age classifications).

    [2.] The federal Civil Rights Act doesn't cover retail stores, and doesn't cover age, so it doesn't bar such policies, either.

    [3.] But about a third of all states ban discrimination based on age in places of public accommodation, and some of those statutes may well ban refusal to sell guns to 18-to-20-year-olds. These laws vary from state to state, so I can't speak to all of them; but the one I checked -- Connecticut (the alphabetically first on the list) -- does indeed seem to ban discrimination against 18-to-20-year-olds in retail sales, with no exception for guns.

    [4.] Likewise, some cities and counties have similar ordinances (even if their states don't); two I found, for instance, are Madison, Wisconsin and Broward County, Florida. (I looked them up just because I remembered from other research that they have broad antidiscrimination ordinances.) Seattle, on the other hand, bans age discrimination, but apparently only against people 21 and above, again without regard to whether the store sells guns or anything else.

    [5.] Of course, the state and local laws will only affect the stores' policies in those jurisdictions; a store could have a general nationwide policy of not selling some products to under-21-year-olds, but a different policy in those states that require equal treatment of 18-to-20-year-olds.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-03-2018 at 12:43 PM.

  11. #69
    Judge Napster: https://www.foxbusiness.com/features...il-rights-laws

    Dick’s Sporting Goods violating civil rights laws?


    Judge Andrew Napolitano said Dick’s Sporting Goods may be within its legal rights to sell firearms to whomever it chooses to — regardless of age.

    The company, one of the nation’s largest sport retailers, said Wednesday it will stop selling assault-style weapons in its stores and will no longer allow a person under the age of 21 to purchase a gun, regardless of what the local laws are.

    “We have civil rights laws that prohibit discrimination on certain basis,” Napolitano told FOX Business’ Stuart Varney on “Varney & Co.” “Race, color, creed, gender, and in New Jersey, age.”

    Federal law currently protects people age 40 and older, but under some state laws, for example in New Jersey where Dick’s has multiple stores, you cannot be subject to age discrimination if you are more than 18 years old.

    “Can they refuse to sell a gun to a person who is immature and is going to harm themselves or others? Absolutely,” the judge said.

  12. #70
    This is the article I linked to earlier. Professor Eugene Volokh is a libertarian law prof at UCLA who hasn't drunk the anyone-who-has-a-license-is-a-government-agent koolaid.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    This is the article I linked to earlier. Professor Eugene Volokh is a libertarian law prof at UCLA who hasn't drunk the anyone-who-has-a-license-is-a-government-agent koolaid.
    Again he is looking at it from a Free Market position.. (a non-existant free market)..

    He does Not Address the Federal Firearms License. Makes no mention at all and it is the center of the argument.
    He also accepts gun control as valid.. when every law written is in fact void.

    but those are other subjects.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Again he is looking at it from a Free Market position.. (a non-existant free market)..

    He does Not Address the Federal Firearms License. Makes no mention at all and it is the center of the argument.
    He also accepts gun control as valid.. when every law written is in fact void.

    but those are other subjects.
    Do you have a link to what the firearms license actually says about a dealer being able to refuse a sale to a customer? I could not find anything specific on their FAQs. https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/conduct-business


    https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...yone-they-want

    Ginger Colbrun, public affairs chief for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, says licensed gun dealers have broad discretion to deny sales, such as in instances where a buyer appears to exhibit erratic behavior.

    As private business owners, [Federal Firearms License holders] can and do use discretion in determining to whom they will or will not provide service,” Colbrun says.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-03-2018 at 02:40 PM.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Do you have a link to what the firearms license actually says about a dealer being able to refuse a sale to a customer?
    Do you have any link that says a licensed agent of the Government in compliance with all known law can refuse sales based on political mood?

    FFL holders are required to keep a registry of firearms sales in an ATF-approved Bound Book, or a computerized equivalent using ATF-approved software.[7] Licensed dealers must also maintain file copies of Form 4473 or eForm 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record" documents, for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition.[7] When retiring or otherwise relinquishing a license, these records are sent to the ATF's Out-of-Business Records Center.[8] Licensed collectors are not required to send their records to the ATF when relinquishing their license. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five business day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.
    Form 4473 (constitutional violation)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
    Last edited by pcosmar; 03-03-2018 at 02:45 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Do you have a link to what the firearms license actually says about a dealer being able to refuse a sale to a customer? I could not find anything specific on their FAQs. https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/conduct-business


    https://www.usnews.com/news/articles...yone-they-want
    Individual discretion.. is quite different than politically motivated denial of service.

    They should all lose their license.. Immediately.. as the ATF routinely does..
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Do you have any link that says a licensed agent of the Government in compliance with all known law can refuse sales based on political mood?



    Form 4473 (constitutional violation)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473
    Your link says they have to file certain forms- it does not say they must sell to all customers.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Individual discretion.. is quite different than politically motivated denial of service.

    They should all lose their license.. Immediately.. as the ATF routinely does..
    So you would prefer that nobody be able to conduct business to purchase a weapon from them. Close down the gun stores.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-03-2018 at 03:47 PM.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So you would prefer that nobody be able to conduct business to purchase a weapon from them. Close down the gun stores.
    LOL. That is some serious troll-$#@!ery in word twisting right there.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So you would prefer that nobody be able to conduct business to purchase a weapon from them. Close down the gun stores.
    From them No,, there are lots of honest establishment to choose from,, These Big retailers are an insignificant % of Gun Sales.

    I would be fine with removing their FFL and stock.. Just as is done with any small shot with minor clerical errors.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Your link says they have to file certain forms- it does not say they must sell to all customers.
    They act as Government (ATF) Agent.. they are bound by LAW...

    why do you hate the law?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    They act as Government (ATF) Agent.. they are bound by LAW...

    why do you hate the law?
    What does the law say?



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    From them No,, there are lots of honest establishment to choose from,, These Big retailers are an insignificant % of Gun Sales.

    I would be fine with removing their FFL and stock.. Just as is done with any small shot with minor clerical errors.
    WalMart is one of the stores saying they will restrict sales from those 18-21. They are the largest gun retailer in the US. But you are right that "big box stores" are not the main gun sellers.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ons/381618002/

    The four largest gun sellers control only 5% of the market. Compare that with cars, where the four biggest automakers sold about 59% of new vehicles in 2017, according to Autodata.

    The U.S. had about 6,804 gun shops in 2017, employing 79,764 workers generating $8.6 billion in revenue, according to IBISWorld.

    There are more sellers if you count all the licensed individual dealers. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms listed 56,754 federally licensed firearms dealers in 2016, as well as 8,076 pawnbrokers allowed to sell guns.

    The ATF said it does not have data on gun sales by individual retailer or category.

    But a 2010 survey of consumers by the National Shooting Sports Foundation found that 39% of buyers purchased their most recent "modern sporting rifle" at an independent retail store, 25% online, 10% at a gun show and only 6% at a chain or big-box retailer.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 03-03-2018 at 04:25 PM.

  26. #82
    Seems we need a 28th amendment to the Constitution, based on the 26th.

    The 26th amendment came about during the '60's because 18 yrs-21 year old's were being conscripted without a vote. The same argument could be used today.

    28th amendment: "The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to bear arms shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age."
    Last edited by phill4paul; 03-03-2018 at 04:22 PM.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Seems we need a 28th amendment to the Constitution, based on the 26th.

    The 26th amendment came about during the '60's because 18 yrs-21 year old's were being conscripted without a vote. The same argument could be used today.

    28th amendment: "The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to bear arms shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age."
    That wouldn't prevent a private enterprise from choosing not to sell to them though.

    To achieve that, you'd need an amendment like this:

    "Freedom of contract being silly, the right of the people to force private enterprises to sell them stuff shall be enforced by the United States."

    Course, we don't really need a constitutional amendment for this.

    The SCOTUS has already "interpreted" the constitution to grant the United States similar powers to combat the evils of discrimination...

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What does the law say?
    that they are an agent of government.

    Classic Socialism. State control of sales.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That wouldn't prevent a private enterprise from choosing not to sell to them though.

    To achieve that, you'd need an amendment like this:

    "Freedom of contract being silly, the right of the people to force private enterprises to sell them stuff shall be enforced by the United States."

    Course, we don't really need a constitutional amendment for this.

    The SCOTUS has already "interpreted" the constitution to grant the United States similar powers to combat the evils of discrimination...
    Sure it would. Name one private enterprise that sells guns to civilians that doesn't require them having a Federal license. Just one.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Sure it would. Name one private enterprise that sells guns to civilians that doesn't require them having a Federal license. Just one.
    So what if they have a federal license?

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That wouldn't prevent a private enterprise from choosing not to sell to them though.

    To achieve that, you'd need an amendment like this:

    "Freedom of contract being silly, the right of the people to force private enterprises to sell them stuff shall be enforced by the United States."

    Course, we don't really need a constitutional amendment for this.

    The SCOTUS has already "interpreted" the constitution to grant the United States similar powers to combat the evils of discrimination...

    Whether you post a sign or not, businesses never have the right to refuse or turn away customers because of their race, gender, age, nationality or religion.
    Read more at https://www.business2community.com/t...nation-0766551
    Wah wahh... (sad trombone)
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  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Are the retailers that are refusing Gun Sales to Legal Adults violating the Law..

    Should they lose their FFL License?.

    Not sure of the law on this,,but it does seem a violation to refuse a legal sale.

    Thoughts?
    Ammo?
    Lets try to answer from the Liberty point of view.

    First: License is bull$#@!. I understand why people want certain practices to be licensed, and yes, there are criminals out there, but sales in and of itself is not a crime.

    Next: Legal Adults. Does that mean there are Illegal Adults? Again, the need is understood. Some people are definitely not responsible with firearms *cough* Dick Cheney. Trouble is that no determined criminal will ever bother with a background check. They will steal the gun, then commit other crimes with it. Other problem is "Legal Adults" (and I get what you mean) is a slippery slope, and their grounds for turning someone into an "Illegal Adult" is so ambiguous that anything can be defined as a probable cause to "remove ones Gun Rights". Rights can not be removed, period. If it can be removed, it is NOT a Right to begin with and is in fact a Permission. The conversion of Rights to Permissions is one of the Communist Planks. If an example is needed, look at Hawaii. If you are a "registered pot smoker" in the state of Hawaii, Gun Rights are revoked. Again, its not a Right if it can be simply revoked. I am not comfortable with the outcome of my own statement however, where there are zero restrictions, but I think thats more on be not thinking properly too. I have to lean on the side that disarming the public because of specific incidents destroying the ability of the people to resist government tyranny is the most dangerous outcome.

    Next "violation to refuse a legal sale". I think this might be best approached by Equal Rights. The Rights of men are only limited by the Equal Rights of others. My Rights END where yours BEGIN. When two men of Equal Rights both agree to extend actions beyond those Rights, its more Contract law than a Rights issue. That is important because both men must agree to the terms of the exchange, otherwise the Legal Sale is invalid. Its no different than demanding one person become a teacher (or any profession) to service another men. Or to deprive them of their property or prosperity. Give me welfare or I will demand the government take your money and give me welfare. It just doesnt work. If both parties agree to a sale, great. If one or the other dont agree, then no sale, simple as that.

    One of the methods of destroying Rights is to impose restrictions on when those Rights can be applied. For example, a bartender refusing to serve a drink to a drunk. The Rights of the bartender must be so that they can refuse to serve a drink to anyone at any time. The customer has no Right to impose on the Rights of the bartender. Again, Contract Law. The way our current system works would be to limit the Rights of the bartender so they can ONLY refuse to serve a drink under certain conditions, such as suspicion of inability to pay, or if the customer is already drunk. Reading between the lines, it is implied that the bartender has NO Right to refuse service UNLESS those conditions are met. This is government force that ultimately infringes on the Equal Rights of the bartender by setting up a scenario where only ONE of both parties agree to the terms of the exchange.

    The opposite here is also true, when the seller wants more than the customer is willing to agree to. So instead of the customer being a dick, in this scenario the bartender is a dick. You must purchase at least ten drinks and consume them. Not gonna happen anywhere but in Bizarro World. However this kind of $#@! happens all the time with Cell Phones. You must agree to the Terms of Service. Two year contract, purchase a new phone every two years, agree to have all communications monitored and submitted to Law Enforcement and Advertisers and Trackers and the NSA and Credit Monitoring Services and that fat kid in the fifth grade that would kick you in the balls repeatedly until you gave him all your lunch money. I give you a dollar and you give me an apple. Thats how its supposed to work. By corporate interference today, it would be I give you a dollar, you give me an apple, but, I would also have to agree to purchase one apple per day at what ever price is demanded every day for the rest of your life, and agree to buy other goods from "friends", and agree to let others monitor the consumption of the apple as well as anything else that is related to the apple and might as well extend to just total surveillance and any refusal to comply with the terms and conditions of the contract will result in your Credit Score being knocked down by fifty points.

    In short, if BOTH parties dont agree to the sale, then the sale is Invalid and no exchange can be made.
    1776 > 1984

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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So what if they have a federal license?
    If the federal law is that firearms should be sold to those 18yrs. of age or older, then the Federal license holder would be forced to sell then to those from the age of 18 forward. If they didn't and discriminated then there license would be revoked. If you are a Federal licensed firearm dealer and refuse to sell to Blacks, or women, how fast do you think it would take to get your chain yanked?

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Wah wahh... (sad trombone)
    That article doesn't cite any law which prohibits discrimination by retailers against <21 year olds.

    The only federal anti-discrimination law relating to age, AFAIK, is the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (limited to employment, obviously).

    As was mentioned in one of the articles cited by somebody above, there may be relevant anti-discrimination law at the state level, I don't know.

    In any event, I'm much less interested in what the law is than in what the law ought to be.

    Are you opposed to freedom of contract, dannno? You think people ought to be forced to makes sales that they don't want to make?

    ...in general, regardless of whether the "discrimination" is based on age, race, gender, left-handeded, $#@!edness, etc.

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