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Thread: Nunes says the FISA court needs to be shut down

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Good question and I have no clue. Can FISA activities function without the court to rubber stamp whatever they want to do?
    It did before the court. The court was actually a reform to give the system some oversight. Previously it had none.


    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    I dunno. Nunes probably doesn't know but I hope he starts giving it some serious thought.
    Nunes is literally the senior republican rep in charge of surveillance.

    His whole life should be about giving it serious thought. The possibility that he hasn't - or that it's even possible that he just never realized the problems with it - until now makes him even more $#@!, not less.


    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Agree about Trump but then I never thought he was smart enough or informed enough on most things we talk about or your average good conspiracy site does.
    Wouldn't lack of smarts or information make him more likely to support shutting the whole thing down?

    No, I doubt it's that. He is infatuated with power and would never give it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It did before the court. The court was actually a reform to give the system some oversight. Previously it had none.




    Nunes is literally the senior republican rep in charge of surveillance.

    His whole life should be about giving it serious thought. The possibility that he hasn't - or that it's even possible that he just never realized the problems with it - until now makes him even more $#@!, not less.




    Wouldn't lack of smarts or information make him more likely to support shutting the whole thing down?

    No, I doubt it's that. He is infatuated with power and would never give it up.
    FISA was an attempt to legalize the illegal and pretend to be controlling it, the court was always part of it.

    Judge Swamp is forced to take the right side of this issue:


    Congress enacted the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) in 1978 in response to the unlawful surveillance of Americans by the FBI and the CIA during the Watergate era. President Richard Nixon -- who famously quipped after leaving office that "when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal" -- used the FBI and the CIA to spy on his political opponents.
    The stated reason was national security. Nixon claimed that foreign agents physically present in the U.S. agitated and aggravated his political opponents to produce the great public unrest in America in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and thus diminished Americans' appetite for fighting the Vietnam War.


    This view -- there are foreigners among us who wish us harm -- came to fruition during the presidency of Jimmy Carter, who pushed for the enactment of FISA. FISA's stated purpose was to limit -- not expand -- the government's surveillance powers by requiring the intervention and permission of a judge.
    Wait a minute. Government surveillance is a search under the Fourth Amendment, and government searches already required warrants from judges. So, what was new about FISA?

    The Constitution requires probable cause of crime to be demonstrated to a judge before the judge can sign a search warrant. That was the law of the land until FISA came along. FISA set up the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, and it authorized the judges on that court to issue search warrants based on a lower standard of probable cause.


    Isn't that contrary to the Constitution? Yes, it is. But a challenge has never reached a non-FISC federal court because the government has never used evidence that it admits was obtained from a FISC warrant in a criminal case for fear that a federal court will invalidate the FISA standard.
    It gets worse.
    Because FISC meets in secret, and because only government lawyers appear before it, we have a dangerous recipe: Secrecy and no defense counsel produce tyranny. That combination has the standard for issuing search warrants sliding even further down the slope of tyranny and absurdity.
    FISA established probable cause of foreign agency as the standard that government lawyers must meet. That morphed into probable cause of foreign personhood. That morphed into probable cause of speaking to a foreign person. And that morphed into probable cause of speaking to any person who has ever spoken to a foreign person. All of this happened in secret.
    This slow but persistent destruction of the right to be left alone, which is ostensibly guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment, came about not only by secrecy and the absence of adversaries but also by judicial gullibility and constitutional infidelity.
    Judges have a tendency to accept uncritically the unchallenged applications presented to them. This is an inherent defect for FISC judges, whose decisions slowly and materially weakened the already unconstitutional FISA probable cause standard. FISC judges have granted 99.97 percent of all applications for search warrants.

    More at: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judg...rong-with-fisa

    The court IS FISA and if Nunes wants to get rid of it he wants to get rid of FISA and take us closer to the founders' intent.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    FISA was an attempt to legalize the illegal and pretend to be controlling it
    This cast of characters neither believe that it was illegal nor do they believe that it is currently illegal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    the court was always part of it.
    As you yourself admit mid-weaseling, the same activities occurred prior to the existence of the court. Without oversight.



    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The court IS FISA and if Nunes wants to get rid of it he wants to get rid of FISA and take us closer to the founders' intent.
    Oh, do go on. I'm so interested to hear you tell us about the founders' intent.
    Last edited by TheCount; 12-12-2019 at 08:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    It did before the court. The court was actually a reform to give the system some oversight. Previously it had none.
    Ha!




    Nunes is literally the senior republican rep in charge of surveillance.

    His whole life should be about giving it serious thought. The possibility that he hasn't - or that it's even possible that he just never realized the problems with it - until now makes him even more $#@!, not less.
    Well, let's hope that his experience wakes his ass up. I also hope that Rand, Massey & Mike Lee take the opportunity to approach him about it. People do change their minds.




    Wouldn't lack of smarts or information make him more likely to support shutting the whole thing down?

    No, I doubt it's that. He is infatuated with power and would never give it up.
    I don't think he's as power mad as you do and he's been a victim of this FISA sh*it, not the one using it as a weapon against political enemies. He may still think it's got some legit use because terrorists but I don't know. I see his depth of knowledge to be very shallow, like most sheeple. I mentioned conspiracy sites because most people who hang on them know it's the FBI behind most "terrorism" inside the US but that's a very small percentage of the population who know or even pursue that kind of information.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    This cast of characters neither believe that it was illegal nor do they believe that it is currently illegal.
    WRONG, everyone admits it was illegal before FISA.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    As you yourself admit mid-weaseling, the same activities occurred prior to the existence of the court. Without oversight.
    Crimes go on all the time but they can't be used in legal actions and they can be punished easier if they aren't given the color of legality by "oversight" that is really rubber stamping.
    Take your weaseling elsewhere.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    I don't think he's as power mad as you do
    Can you think of an example wherein he has willingly abdicated any executive powers? Or failed to attempt to expand the power the the executive?


    I mean, he's currently arguing in court that he is literally above the law, which is an unprecedented assertion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    WRONG, everyone admits it was illegal before FISA.
    No. You just made that up.



    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Crimes go on all the time but they can't be used in legal actions and they can be punished easier if they aren't given the color of legality by "oversight" that is really rubber stamping.
    Take your weaseling elsewhere.
    As always: $#@!'s sake, man, read a book. Or at least google "parallel construction"
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    FISA was an attempt to legalize the illegal and pretend to be controlling it, the court was always part of it.

    Judge Swamp is forced to take the right side of this issue:


    Congress enacted the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) in 1978 in response to the unlawful surveillance of Americans by the FBI and the CIA during the Watergate era. President Richard Nixon -- who famously quipped after leaving office that "when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal" -- used the FBI and the CIA to spy on his political opponents.
    The stated reason was national security. Nixon claimed that foreign agents physically present in the U.S. agitated and aggravated his political opponents to produce the great public unrest in America in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and thus diminished Americans' appetite for fighting the Vietnam War.


    This view -- there are foreigners among us who wish us harm -- came to fruition during the presidency of Jimmy Carter, who pushed for the enactment of FISA. FISA's stated purpose was to limit -- not expand -- the government's surveillance powers by requiring the intervention and permission of a judge.
    Wait a minute. Government surveillance is a search under the Fourth Amendment, and government searches already required warrants from judges. So, what was new about FISA?

    The Constitution requires probable cause of crime to be demonstrated to a judge before the judge can sign a search warrant. That was the law of the land until FISA came along. FISA set up the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, and it authorized the judges on that court to issue search warrants based on a lower standard of probable cause.


    Isn't that contrary to the Constitution? Yes, it is. But a challenge has never reached a non-FISC federal court because the government has never used evidence that it admits was obtained from a FISC warrant in a criminal case for fear that a federal court will invalidate the FISA standard.
    It gets worse.
    Because FISC meets in secret, and because only government lawyers appear before it, we have a dangerous recipe: Secrecy and no defense counsel produce tyranny. That combination has the standard for issuing search warrants sliding even further down the slope of tyranny and absurdity.
    FISA established probable cause of foreign agency as the standard that government lawyers must meet. That morphed into probable cause of foreign personhood. That morphed into probable cause of speaking to a foreign person. And that morphed into probable cause of speaking to any person who has ever spoken to a foreign person. All of this happened in secret.
    This slow but persistent destruction of the right to be left alone, which is ostensibly guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment, came about not only by secrecy and the absence of adversaries but also by judicial gullibility and constitutional infidelity.
    Judges have a tendency to accept uncritically the unchallenged applications presented to them. This is an inherent defect for FISC judges, whose decisions slowly and materially weakened the already unconstitutional FISA probable cause standard. FISC judges have granted 99.97 percent of all applications for search warrants.

    More at: https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/judg...rong-with-fisa

    The court IS FISA and if Nunes wants to get rid of it he wants to get rid of FISA and take us closer to the founders' intent.
    Is this guy hard to figure out, or what? That sounds like the old Judge Nap and not this blackmailed snake he's become. And, he supports impeachment, knowing these criminals conspired to frame Trump.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Is this guy hard to figure out, or what? That sounds like the old Judge Nap and not this blackmailed snake he's become. And, he supports impeachment, knowing these criminals conspired to frame Trump.
    I think he had no choice but to oppose FISA, he would have lost his cover entirely if he didn't.

    The fact that he has supported the Russiagate hoax and every other step of the coup proves he can't be trusted.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Can you think of an example wherein he has willingly abdicated any executive powers? Or failed to attempt to expand the power the the executive?


    I mean, he's currently arguing in court that he is literally above the law, which is an unprecedented assertion.
    Do you mean arguing for executive privilege?

    When it comes to abuse of constitutional authority, I think the problem is with the federal courts.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Is this guy hard to figure out, or what? That sounds like the old Judge Nap and not this blackmailed snake he's become. And, he supports impeachment, knowing these criminals conspired to frame Trump.
    Oh, yeah, he definitely not to be trusted but he, sometimes, does a good job of playing the strict constructionist.

    Regarding you and The Count going back and forth on the FBI, I don't recall when it was created but it's always been 100% corrupt since the days of J Edgar Hoover who had dossiers on everyone. I'm sure he wasn't bothering with warrants. Further, even outside of the federal system, I think lots of judges rubber stamp requests for them.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Oh, yeah, he definitely not to be trusted but he, sometimes, does a good job of playing the strict constructionist.

    Regarding you and The Count going back and forth on the FBI, I don't recall when it was created but it's always been 100% corrupt since the days of J Edgar Hoover who had dossiers on everyone. I'm sure he wasn't bothering with warrants. Further, even outside of the federal system, I think lots of judges rubber stamp requests for them.
    Absolutely.

    The FBI just needs to go.

    But that doesn't mean that FISA type spying was legal or could be used in court before FISA or that getting rid of the court (and thereby FISA itself) isn't a good thing.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #43
    The GOP is pretending to care about the 4th amendment so that they can bludgeon Trump's political enemies with it: nothing more.

    It's no different than the Dems' nauseating speeches about their solemn Constitutional duties regarding impeachment.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The GOP is pretending to care about the 4th amendment so that they can bludgeon Trump's political enemies with it: nothing more.

    It's no different than the Dems' nauseating speeches about their solemn Constitutional duties regarding impeachment.
    Now is the perfect time to add momentum and get some progress on the 4thA.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Now is the perfect time to add momentum and get some progress on the 4thA.
    That's not going to happen.

    The 4th amendment isn't on the minds of the politicians or the voters.

    The soundbites could just as well cite the Declaration of Independence or any other authoritative-sounding thing.

    This is just tribal warfare.

    Chimps beating each other over the head with bibles aren't therefore likely converts.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That's not going to happen.

    The 4th amendment isn't on the minds of the politicians or the voters.

    The soundbites could just as well cite the Declaration of Independence or any other authoritative-sounding thing.

    This is just tribal warfare.

    Chimps beating each other over the head with bibles aren't therefore likely converts.
    I agree but also with SS in that it's good that it's even coming to light. I'd bet my last buck that most sheeple don't even know what the fourth amendment is. At least the Republicans seem to be concentrating on the spying and not blathering on about their "solemn Constitutional duties". Hearing that sh*t coming out of the mouths of communists and morons is like being in Orwell-land. I heard Her Officiousness, Sheila Jackson Lee running her trap earlier. This is a woman who thinks American astronauts planted the flag on Mars.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Absolutely.

    The FBI just needs to go.

    But that doesn't mean that FISA type spying was legal or could be used in court before FISA or that getting rid of the court (and thereby FISA itself) isn't a good thing.
    There is SO MUCH that has to go. Is it possible? It's like unwinding derivatives. IOW, it might be impossible. If so, I'll accept Trump as the best likely wrecking ball before we go down like Rome.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    There is SO MUCH that has to go. Is it possible? It's like unwinding derivatives. IOW, it might be impossible. If so, I'll accept Trump as the best likely wrecking ball before we go down like Rome.
    I don't know what can be accomplished so I take whatever I can get.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  23. #49
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #50
    During a stunning interview last Sunday Devin Nunes called for the FISA court to be deconstructed. In my opinion it was that statement, not the IG report, that spurred FISC Presiding Judge Rosemary Collyer to make a public order today.
    Today, hours after Judge Collyer released her order, Devin Nunes responded to the review of the FISC by stating, accurately, Judge Collyer doth protest too much.
    In this interview Devin Nunes outlines his February 2018 notification to the FISC about the specific fraud upon the court; and as a result of that (and a follow-up) notification, Nunes again takes the FISC to task for saying they were not aware. Collyer was aware because Nunes told her.
    Accepting the totality of the FISC obfuscation, HPSCI ranking member Devin Nunes again calls for the dismantling of the FISA court process. WATCH:




    Despite the media ignoring the scale of Nunes prior statements, this is not some just some arbitrary representatives’ opinion. Nunes was Chairman of the HPSCI when he informed the court of the abuse; and he is currently the ranking member of the same committee.
    It is not a signal flare from the ranking member of the HPSCI to call for a structural removal of FISC authority. This is a nuclear blast from the primary person who previously guided the FISA re-authorization that permits the court’s existence.

    More at: https://theconservativetreehouse.com...of-fisa-court/
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #51
    Again: He specifies the court and not FISA.


    "The oversight of our unconstitutional spying is broken, so let's get rid of that bad oversight and replace it with no oversight. That will definitely solve the problem."
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Again: He specifies the court and not FISA.


    "The oversight of our unconstitutional spying is broken, so let's get rid of that bad oversight and replace it with no oversight. That will definitely solve the problem."
    AGAIN: The Court IS FISA.
    Oversight = authorization.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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