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Thread: Boom. You can't out tariff us. Period. This Trump knows.

  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Anybody who opposes an airtight heavily militarized border must be in favor of completely open borders". False dichotomy. Nobody wants "open" borders. The argument is how much money should be spend on them.
    "Abolish ICE" "No Borders, No wall, No USA at all"
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Nope- it is right on- and I'm from California. Most of the lefties are your white bosses who are run by the gov. Most the Mexicans just want to work and be left alone.
    Great would you say California is the most socialist state in the USA? How did it become that way and how did immigration affect that?
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 01/15/24
    Trump will win every single state primary by double digits.
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  4. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    Great would you say California is the most socialist state in the USA? How did it become that way and how did immigration affect that?
    What about other states with large immigrant populations like Texas, Nevada, and Hawaii? How socialist is Texas?

    (noting that all the white people in the country come from immigrants too- even Conservatives)
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 11-26-2018 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What about other states with large immigrant populations like Texas, Nevada, and Hawaii? How socialist is Texas?

    (noting that all the white people in the country come from immigrants too- even Conservatives)
    Excessive immigration is threatening to turn all of those states socialist or already has.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Excessive immigration is threatening to turn all of those states socialist or already has.
    What's Massachusetts' excuse?? Vermont??
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  7. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    What's Massachusetts' excuse?? Vermont??
    Just because we have our own communists is not a reason to let them import reinforcements until they outnumber us so badly that we don't stand a chance politically or in a rebellion/civil war.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Or gaining wealth from production.
    That's kind of the screw job of the current system though. There is no "wealth" being created, only further indebtedness masquerading as wealth.

    But why is it only viewed from the consumer's standpoint? No one ever got rich by consuming. Production creates wealth. If consumption creates wealth then people drowning in credit card debt must be living the dream.
    Probably because everyone consumes but not everyone produces. Having said that, producers gain "wealth" by maximizing profit margin through low input prices. Higher input prices translates to higher output prices and is mostly a zero sum game. I still contest that any wealth is being created, however, since all that's being created monetarily is more debt. Production creates debt is more accurate statement under the current system. Does changing to that perspective change your opinion at all? Higher prices means higher debt. Do you still want higher prices now?

    That's what's so frustrating about the whole debate. As long as people get cheap crap, no one really cares what happens to the producers, The entrepreneurs, The workers. We've gone from one extreme to the other since the days of Smoot-Hawley protectionism, to this new-age notion that you don't actually have to work hard or risk anything to increase your lot in life, and being able to buy a bunch of junk = wealth(?).
    I generally agree with your sentiment, as a producer myself, I want the lowest input costs possible so I can make the output product as affordable as possible. Higher prices means less people can afford the product, at least until wages rise. But then when wages rise, prices rise further since wages are always a lagging metric. There is no solution in this current debt-money system.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  9. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    That's kind of the screw job of the current system though. There is no "wealth" being created, only further indebtedness masquerading as wealth.

    Probably because everyone consumes but not everyone produces. Having said that, producers gain "wealth" by maximizing profit margin through low input prices. Higher input prices translates to higher output prices and is mostly a zero sum game. I still contest that any wealth is being created, however, since all that's being created monetarily is more debt. Production creates debt is more accurate statement under the current system. Does changing to that perspective change your opinion at all? Higher prices means higher debt. Do you still want higher prices now?

    I generally agree with your sentiment, as a producer myself, I want the lowest input costs possible so I can make the output product as affordable as possible. Higher prices means less people can afford the product, at least until wages rise. But then when wages rise, prices rise further since wages are always a lagging metric. There is no solution in this current debt-money system.
    Well, if you want to debate the pitfalls of having a currency based on debt, you're in for a boring debate because we'll agree more than we disagree.

    Still, FRNs seem to be enough to motivate people to show up to work every day, AND to buy stuff with them. I don't know if the fundamentals there would be much different if we had a real currency backed by something of value.

    I think consumerism is a way to mask the problem though. The new "opiate of the masses." You say it is production, but I disagree simply based on the fact that almost all trade and tax policy over the last century has been geared towards punishing productivity and encouraging consumption. We ushered in the income tax and shunned things like tariffs. Something fishy about that, IMO. There's enough suspicion there to keep me from jumping on the "free trade" bandwagon. Seems to be a bit of a rat race against the shenanigans of the Fed, to find cheaper labor and cheaper garbage before anyone gets wise. I don't believe libertarian free-marketers are in on the deception, but I do think they might want to take a look at who is standing behind them and nodding their heads in agreement.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 11-27-2018 at 07:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.



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  11. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Seems to be a bit of a rat race against the shenanigans of the Fed, to find cheaper labor and cheaper garbage before anyone gets wise.
    That sentence sums up the system overall, especially now that it's in its end stages. The system has become little more than a "find the greater fools" version of capitalism, since, as you point out, productivity has been punished and smart, conservative business practices also have been (low debt load, patient growth, etc). The fast devaluation of the currency has forced the "greater fools" mindset more since it's a rush to amass as much wealth as possible before the currency loses more value. OTOH, a currency backed by something of value means relative stability and the ability to return to smarter business practices. The flip side is that is that all of this debt has to be wiped out and of course that means the money created out of that debt also. We really should have done what RP suggested back in 2008 and liquidated all that bad debt and malinvestment...

    ---------------

    On topic of tariffs: UTX CEO (major US-based manufacturing corp) said a bit ago on CNBC that tariffs don't help anyone and don't accomplish anything, become a tax on consumers, don't bring jobs back, creates inflation, hurts demand and just don't work. He minces no words.

    Relevant part starts at 7:30 mark
    https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/11/2...ies-hayes.html
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  12. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    That sentence sums up the system overall, especially now that it's in its end stages. The system has become little more than a "find the greater fools" version of capitalism, since, as you point out, productivity has been punished and smart, conservative business practices also have been (low debt load, patient growth, etc). The fast devaluation of the currency has forced the "greater fools" mindset more since it's a rush to amass as much wealth as possible before the currency loses more value. OTOH, a currency backed by something of value means relative stability and the ability to return to smarter business practices. The flip side is that is that all of this debt has to be wiped out and of course that means the money created out of that debt also. We really should have done what RP suggested back in 2008 and liquidated all that bad debt and malinvestment...

    ---------------

    On topic of tariffs: UTX CEO (major US-based manufacturing corp) said a bit ago on CNBC that tariffs don't help anyone and don't accomplish anything, become a tax on consumers, don't bring jobs back, creates inflation, hurts demand and just don't work. He minces no words.

    Relevant part starts at 7:30 mark
    https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/11/2...ies-hayes.html

    And he's absolutely right. Won't stop people from cheering for more though.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  13. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Nobody wants "open" borders. The argument is how much money should be spend on them.
    Have you forgotten where you are?

    The position of this website is that the amount that the federal government should spend on "borders," outside of times of constitutionally declared wars during which that spending is toward defense against bona fide military invasions, is zero.

    Ron Paul may prefer not to label his position as "open borders," but given that he ardently opposes a border wall, supports letting anyone enter the country without even having a passport, and opposes banning people who lack government paperwork like visas from being able to get jobs here, it wouldn't be a stretch to call it that. And anyone who accepts the mission of this website as written agrees with him on these things.

  14. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    What's Massachusetts' excuse??
    Irish immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Vermont??
    People who moved there from Massachusetts?

  15. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Have you forgotten where you are?

    The position of this website is that the amount that the federal government should spend on "borders," outside of times of constitutionally declared wars during which that spending is toward defense against bona fide military invasions, is zero.

    Ron Paul may prefer not to label his position as "open borders," but given that he ardently opposes a border wall, supports letting anyone enter the country without even having a passport, and opposes banning people who lack government paperwork like visas from being able to get jobs here, it wouldn't be a stretch to call it that. And anyone who accepts the mission of this website as written agrees with him on these things.
    And bringing the troops home to protect the border? Should we agree with him on that?

  16. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    And bringing the troops home to protect the border? Should we agree with him on that?
    Re-read the post you just quoted.

  17. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Re-read the post you just quoted.
    "None of us are for illegal immigration." "Quit pretending we can take care of those borders(Afghanistan) and take care of our borders and our needs here."


  18. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    "None of us are for illegal immigration." "Quit pretending we can take care of those borders(Afghanistan) and take care of our borders and our needs here."
    In other words, you can find quotes from Ron Paul saying exactly what I said he said.



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  20. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    In other words, you can find quotes from Ron Paul saying exactly what I said he said.
    So you agree that 300k+ illegal trespassers should not be allowed? I too agree.

  21. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    When Trump entered office, the Europeans had an offer on the table as part of the TPP talks to get rid of over 90% of all tariffs and taxes between the US and Europe. He said it was the "worst deal" (they are all the "worst deals"). He ended those negotiations and walked away from their offer. Eleven Europeans signed the deal without the US.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...fs-855737.html
    Because managed trade agreements negotiated by unaccountable bureaucrats catering to powerful lobbyists and international plutocrats is much better than zero tariffs and zero subsidies. Always advocating the status quo as dictated by the global left establishment.

    President Trump offered European nations and other countries a zero-tariff deal as a way out of an escalating trade war, but so far he has no takers ...
    ...
    “Ultimately that’s what you want. You want tariff-free, no barriers, and you want no subsides because you have some countries subsidizing industries, and that’s not fair,” he told them. “So you go tariff-free, you go barrier-free, you go subsidy-free. That’s the way you learned at the Wharton School of Finance.”
    ...
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...iff-trade-off/
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  22. #619
    At what point do we declare victory in the Trade War?
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  23. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    So you agree that 300k+ illegal trespassers should not be allowed? I too agree.
    I have never suggested that anyone should have to allow trespassing, which pertains to private property. But that's not what we're discussing here.

    As for its being illegal, all we have to do is repeal the laws that make it illegal, and illegal immigration will drop to zero. I support totally eliminating illegal immigration.

  24. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I have never suggested that anyone should have to allow trespassing, which pertains to private property. But that's not what we're discussing here.

    As for its being illegal, all we have to do is repeal the laws that make it illegal, and illegal immigration will drop to zero. I support totally eliminating illegal immigration.
    It is what we are discussing. Sovereignty. The collective private property of a people. Think gated community. Neighbors coming together to bar access to undesirables or those that may harm. Do you have a problem with that?

    You live in the same libertarian utopia play world as Pierz. When you choose to join us at the grown up table of reality let me know.

  25. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    It is what we are discussing. Sovereignty. The collective private property of a people. Think gated community. Neighbors coming together to bar access to undesirables or those that may harm. Do you have a problem with that?

    You live in the same libertarian utopia play world as Pierz. When you choose to join us at the grown up table of reality let me know.
    WTH???? Somewhere between "The collective private property of a people." and libertarian utopia is were you find reality. I prefer going towards the libertarian utopia then surrendering private property to the collective of the people.

  26. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    It is what we are discussing. Sovereignty. The collective private property of a people. Think gated community. Neighbors coming together to bar access to undesirables or those that may harm. Do you have a problem with that?

    You live in the same libertarian utopia play world as Pierz. When you choose to join us at the grown up table of reality let me know.
    We are each sovereign individuals.

    If I invite someone onto my own property, then when they're there, they're not trespassing, whether you as an outside party like them being there or not.

    And if you do support arrogating to yourself or some other individual or group of individuals the power to dictate to private property owners whom they may or may not invite onto their property, or sell their property to, then forcing those private property owners to allow you or those other dictators to trespass their property is precisely what you in fact support.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 11-28-2018 at 10:21 AM.

  27. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by dean.engelhardt View Post
    WTH???? Somewhere between "The collective private property of a people." and libertarian utopia is were you find reality. I prefer going towards the libertarian utopia then surrendering private property to the collective of the people.
    Exactly.

    If this guy thinks that the quotes he's found from Ron Paul come anywhere close to expressing the same views that he's expressing, he is utterly clueless.



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  29. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by dean.engelhardt View Post
    WTH???? Somewhere between "The collective private property of a people." and libertarian utopia is were you find reality. I prefer going towards the libertarian utopia then surrendering private property to the collective of the people.
    Your libertarian utopia will never be found. Nations and their sovereignty are predicated on a collective property. That's reality. Join us at the grown up table when you are ready.

  30. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    It is what we are discussing. Sovereignty. The collective private property of a people. Think gated community. Neighbors coming together to bar access to undesirables or those that may harm. Do you have a problem with that?
    My take is a little different from some. I believe in sovereignty. But I worry more about giving more power and wealth to the HOA (government) than I do about the threat from the "undesirables". Especially, since the biggest reason they want into the gated community is because the HOA is luring them in. Which one is really the bigger threat? Screw the HOA, we can manage our own properties without them walling us in.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  31. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    We are each sovereign individuals.

    If I invite someone onto my own property, then when they're there, they're not trespassing, whether you as an outside party like them being there or not.
    We are not talking about "your" property. We are talking about "our" property. This is the reality. Nations exist. THIS nation exists.

  32. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    My take is a little different from some. I believe in sovereignty. But I worry more about giving more power and wealth to the HOA (government) than I do about the threat from the "undesirables". Especially, since the biggest reason they want into the gated community is because the HOA is luring them in. Which one is really the bigger threat? Screw the HOA, we can manage our own properties without them walling us in.
    We can't. Have you ever dealt with a HOA? Petty tyrants that make it difficult to reign in. They want to allow grounds squatters that will, in time, give them more power. That is not the answer.

  33. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Your libertarian utopia will never be found. Nations and their sovereignty are predicated on a collective property. That's reality. Join us at the grown up table when you are ready.
    The adult table of collectivism is one I will never visit or support. Individualism and libertarianism has my full support.

  34. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    You live in the same libertarian utopia play world as Pierz. When you choose to join us at the grown up table of reality let me know.
    Many people in America want to be able to welcome people into our land that you and your cohorts do not want to welcome here. It is not in some imaginary utopia that this situation obtains, it is the present reality.

    Which group is the "collective" that should get its way? Those of us who want to welcome immigrants into America? Or those of you who want to prevent their entry? And on what basis does the one group get to assert its will over the other as the so-called "collective"?

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