I understand the utilitarian argument. It doesn't align with principles of individual sovereignty. To say the least.
It's emblematic of the kind of sophistry that trump inspires.
Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018
I agree .Originally Posted by paleocon1
Do something Danke
Which is why we should be concerned about Woolsey/trump. Woolsey has been very clear about America's need to be prepared to conscript.
trump seems to be surrounding himself with this type of thinking.
Yes, trump is still a Democrat to me.
Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018
That makes NO sense when compared to your comment I answered:I am quite aware of the wars.
If you can not see why Webb, Rangle and Flynn were talking about the draft in a hypothetical way, I don't know what to tell you.
Right, btu you still have to register for the non-draft.
No. there will not be a war, because the American people will not want wars, because their necks would be on the line.
There is no spoon.
This^ and we're not exactly talking about a President Paul appointment. The front runners as of yesterday were Guiliani and Bolton.
If Jim Webb gets the appointment it'd be the most non-interventionist pick we've seen in 30 years. It'd be such a victory over the neo-cons who cheered and wanted a Clinton victory. I wish Webb would be Secretary of State but that's probably not in the cards...but might be in 4 years though!
I mean this guy opposed the first Iraq war:
"The debate over our role in the Persian Gulf crisis has focused on national, rather than specific military goals. The fundamental questions, upon which all others inevitably rest, have not been addressed. Why did we send such a huge contingent of ground troops in the first place? And under what conditions are we going to use them or bring them home?
Answers are not forthcoming. Military officials intimate that the question would expose tactical options. Administration officials talk in vague terms: Defense Secretary Cheney is telling us to prepare for a commitment that may take years. Others have been quoted as saying we may be there for a decade. At the same time we are being reassured, amidst many loud calls to initiate a war with Iraq, that the U.S. military commitment is wholly defensive."
He ends:
"Too much is at risk, and too many questions remain for this buildup to continue without the Administration clarifying its direction. And if offensive action is in the cards, it should be taken only after the President receives a declaration of war from the Congress."
Yeah conscription support is really bad but he's powerless to enact it and it would be shot down by Congress. On the other hand Webb would be a voice in the room on whether to go to war. Totally worth it ... plus we get to see Kristol's head explode when he hears the announcement
"The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack...that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.""Attack Libya UPDATE 8/13: and Syria"
"We can track down terrorists without trampling on our civil liberties.... the federal government will only issue warrants and execute searches because it needs to, not because it can.""Need to murder UPDATE 8/13: and track citizens" ~ Barack H. Obama
No. there will not be a war, because the American people will not want wars, because their necks would be on the line.The whole reason why they were supporting the draft was because they believed it would hypothetically stop wars. Just like when Charles Rangel proposed the bill, and tons of people here flipped out, being completely intellectually dishonest about what the bill proposal was. It was never introduced with the intention of passing.If you can not see why Webb, Rangle and Flynn were talking about the draft in a hypothetical way, I don't know what to tell you.
Last edited by UWDude; 11-17-2016 at 09:18 PM.
That's a great point.. they could implement a draft at the drop of a dime, any time they wanted to..Right, btu you still have to register for the non-draft.
So why not just implement it pre-emptively, so that when war comes up for discussion people are more ardently opposed and be more likely to avoid it altogether?
I'm not convinced it's a totally full-proof strategy, or that it's a good strategy, but I'm not going to pretend the idea is completely without merit.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
"If the choice is Jim Webb, Rudy Giuliani and John Bolton, I'll take Webb every single time."
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.
I agree.
if you say you support Webb's view on the draft, though, you are a jackass.
Really? Are those the only choices?
Geebus, how low do we want to set the bar?! With that logic, we could get you to accept just about anybody if we float a couple worse names. "If the choice is between Satan, Hitler, and Mussolini, I'll take Mussolini every time!"
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
obviouslyReally? Are those the only choices?
Geebus, how low do we want to set the bar?! With that logic, we could get you to accept just about anybody if we float a couple worse names. "If the choice is between Satan, Hitler, and Mussolini, I'll take Mussolini every time!"
he is nobodys preference, but Trump isn't going to give us a real libertarian
So.... the draft from 1940 to 1973 stopped wars.........
Right...........
There is no spoon.
I'm sorry. Is there seriously not a passionate hatred of the draft on RPF anymore? Does nobody here have children?
This is a non-negotiable issue. If you even entertain an argument for conscription, then that "inalienable rights" thing means nothing to you. There's no way your belief system has any relationship to Ron Paul's.
I'm afraid this place has just plain lost its soul. The draft is worse than taxation, worse than Nazi cakes, worse than chattel slavery. My children are not cannon-fodder!!! God have mercy on anybody who thinks they are.
Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018
Oh, but you see, it's just a 27D chess maneuver to avoid wars! Just by talking about the draft, it really worries those in power that their kids might be placed in military administration leadership positions, which while improving their political resumes, might make them feel bad... or something...
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
To be fair, the anti-war movement of the 1960s and 70s is widely recognized as a major contributing factor in ending the Vietnam War. It is also widely recognized that the anti-war movement would probably not have been as large and influential, nor have encompassed individuals from such a broad spectrum of socio-political leanings had it not been for the draft.
So, while the draft didn't prevent the onset of the Vietnam War, it is likely that it was a significant contributing factor in ending that war sooner that TPTB would have preferred.
That being said, however, it doesn't even come close to being a sufficient justification for conscription. Conscription, at best, amounts to chattel slavery. At worst it amounts to a particularly despicable form of human sacrifice to the state. There exist no moral justificationsin support of such barbarism. None.
Chris
"Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon
"...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul
27D Chess?!? Really? The that would mean that Trump isn't JUST a "bad-ass American" "god emperor" ( I know he's that because I read it here on RPF), but a freakin' SUPER GENIUS "bad-ass American" "god emperor"! Damn!We're so lucky to have him. /s
Chris
"Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon
"...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul
I don't think that's a foregone conclusion. The draft logistically allowed the US Gov to have enough "human resources" to go on as long as they wanted to. Whether people whining about it had an impact is another issue. Almost 60,000 US soldiers died in the Vietnam war. That's in contrast with less than 7,000 for both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Even the Korean war resulted in almost 35,000 US dead.
It may not result in less or shorter wars, but the Fed Gov definitely treats volunteer forces much differently than conscripted ones.
I appreciate that statement very much.That being said, however, it doesn't even come close to being a sufficient justification for conscription. Conscription, at best, amounts to chattel slavery. At worst it amounts to a particularly despicable form of human sacrifice to the state. There exist no moral justificationsin support of such barbarism. None.
Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018
and you feel that hrc would be better because?
No.
Edit: Bite me.
Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018
And to be fair- JFK was ready to withdraw from Vietnam- but we all know where that went.
There is no spoon.
That's not even the point.
The election is over and now it's time to deal with actual TRUMP policies.
There is no spoon.
Because Rangel, like Webb, is an idiot.
"There are instruments so dangerous to the rights of the nation and which place them so totally at the mercy of their governors that those governors, whether legislative or executive, should be restrained from keeping such instruments on foot but in well-defined cases. Such an instrument is a standing army." --Thomas Jefferson to David Humphreys, 1789. ME 7:323
"I do not like [in the new Federal Constitution] the omission of a Bill of Rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for... protection against standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:387
"Nor is it conceived needful or safe that a standing army should be kept up in time of peace for [defense against invasion]." --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:334
"Standing armies [are] inconsistent with [a people's] freedom and subversive of their quiet." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Lord North's Proposition, 1775. Papers 1:231
"The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force." --Thomas Jefferson to Chandler Price, 1807. ME 11:160
"A distinction between the civil and military [is one] which it would be for the good of the whole to obliterate as soon as possible." --Thomas Jefferson: Answers to de Meusnier Questions, 1786. ME 17:90
"It is nonsense to talk of regulars. They are not to be had among a people so easy and happy at home as ours. We might as well rely on calling down an army of angels from heaven." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1814. ME 14:207
"There shall be no standing army but in time of actual war." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776. Papers 1:363
"The Greeks and Romans had no standing armies, yet they defended themselves. The Greeks by their laws, and the Romans by the spirit of their people, took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army. Their system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair to the standard of his country whenever that was reared. This made them invincible; and the same remedy will make us so." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:184
"Bonaparte... transferred the destinies of the republic from the civil to the military arm. Some will use this as a lesson against the practicability of republican government. I read it as a lesson against the danger of standing armies." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams, 1800. ME 10:154
Not the best source.
I'm 18... hence why I am shooting so hard at him.
Exactly..this thread is entitled "Jim Webb supports conscription and should not be defense chief" not "Will a draft deter wars". I thought this thread was dead.
Jim Webb or any Trump appointment will have zero actual legal influence on the draft. It requires a vote in Congress and the last time that happened in 2003 it lost by a razor thin margin of.... 2 to 402And never brought to the floor again.
Not saying it's the motivation in the title here but a lot of political games are played with this issue. See the following:
"Observers largely believe that Rangel, knowing beforehand that the bill would never be passed by the House, introduced it only to make a point. Rangel himself argued that the point of his bill was to express his opposition to the war in Iraq. In an editorial in The New York Times, Rangel said “if those calling for war knew that their children were likely to be required to serve—and to be placed in harm’s way—there would be more caution and a greater willingness to work with the international community in dealing with Iraq.”
Some commentators opined that the bill figured in a "scare campaign" to convince US voters that Republicans (or specifically the White House) had secret plans to re-institute conscription after the November 2 elections. For example, John Sutherland, a columnist for The Guardian, claimed on May 31, 2004, that the bill is "currently approved and sitting in the Committee for Armed Services".[3] He further predicted that the draft itself would be implemented as early as June 15, 2005. William Hawkins, a columnist for The Washington Times, denies that the bill was ever approved and claims that when Republicans brought it to the floor on October 5, it was for the express purpose of killing it.".[4]"
While Webb/Flynn (like other Trump appointments) has issues this imo is not a main one. And any answer will probably just be used as a political tool by one side or the other... most likely Democrats saying Trump is going to re-institute the draft to drive down his approval numbers. It bears no influence on a draft actually happening. See the latest poll:
Do you think the United States should return to the military draft at this time or not?"
2/24-27/16
Yes No Unsure
% % %
20 79 1
Bottom line: Webb is the best available of Trump's choices and should be defense chief under a Trump Administration. Maybe Secretary of State down the line. Dismissing him over something for which he can't influence and not taking into consideration that he would be the most non-interventionist in a Presidential Cabinet in decades is incredibly short-sighted and imo hurts the cause of liberty. The guy opposed the 1st Iraq war for goodness sake. Name me one Cabinet hopeful in 25 years since that war that would have done the same!
Jim Webb for Secretary of Defense! Jim Webb for Secretary of State!
Last edited by Libertea Party; 11-19-2016 at 09:35 AM.
"The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack...that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.""Attack Libya UPDATE 8/13: and Syria"
"We can track down terrorists without trampling on our civil liberties.... the federal government will only issue warrants and execute searches because it needs to, not because it can.""Need to murder UPDATE 8/13: and track citizens" ~ Barack H. Obama
Trump isn't even President yet. BTW, don't get your panties in a twist. He won't draft you.
Uhh.... this thread is about Trump and his choices- get over yourself.
There is no spoon.
Then why are you talking about non-policies? Trump isn't even president yet.
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