View Poll Results: Would you use your own kids to attack soldiers with machine guns, just to film it?

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  • Absolutely!

    3 50.00%
  • No, that's inhumane, deceptive and disgusting

    3 50.00%
  • No, I'm not Palestinian

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Thread: Hamas fan Tamimi makes his kids attack IDF soldiers repeatedly, films it, you all swallow it

  1. #1

    Hamas fan Tamimi makes his kids attack IDF soldiers repeatedly, films it, you all swallow it

    Hey everyone! Remember when you all flipped out last wkend because an IDF soldier touched a 12 yr old kid after having rocks thrown at him? Well guess what: Bassem Tamimi has done it a thousand times. He sends his own kids to attack soldiers, just to he can get some fun videos of IDF soldiers defending themselves, while pretending he's catching a war crime. I know that's a lot of information for all you anti-imperialist RPF geniuses to understand, so try reading that last sentence again.

    He's literally photographed his own daughter throwing rocks at soldiers and provoking them over and over and over, he openly supports Hamas, which promises to kill all the Jews. But obviously all you RPFers know better than to take anyone literally when they promise to kill all the Jews. Whether its Hitler, Muhammad, Iran or Palestine, you all know that anyone promising to kill all the Jews is just being sarcastic, they really mean they want freedom or liberty or whatever.

    So all you guys who jumped for joy and celebrated a BS photo of an IDF soldier "abusing" a child (who has been sent by his father to attack IDF soldiers repeatedly), you still happy? You support this crap?


    Just a week before the prominent Palestinian activist leader Bassem al-Tamimi embarks on a month-long speaking tour in the U.S., he and his family attracted massive media attention when a clip of one of the clashes they provoked with the IDF went viral.



    Use of Children to Confront Soldiers as Cameras Roll

    The Tamimis are best known for the 2012 video of daughter Ahed confronting Israeli soldiers for the cameras:



    Bassem Tamimi’s interpretation of “the right to resist” goes beyond even such confrontations, and includes rock-throwing and the use of women and children as human shields for the rock-throwers, and there are even indications that both he and his wife may hold much more radical views that include the endorsement of terrorist groups and murderous terrorist attacks.

    To begin with, consider the following profile picture that Bassem Tamimi’s daughter Ahed posted on her Facebook (FB) page on February 7 of this year.






    As the uncropped original shows, Ahed was aiming her stones actually at three IDF soldiers walking just down the hillside she was standing on. When you scroll through the pictures Schwarczenberg posted for his February 6, 2015 entry on the “Friday demonstration in Nabi Saleh“, you will see that other teenagers present at the same protest used slings to throw rocks of considerable size and that the demonstrators (including Ahed Tamimi) did not spare any effort to provoke a clash with the soldiers. Schwarczenberg’s entry for the most recent demonstration even includes a picture showing a very young boy using a sling to hurl a rock.

    http://schwarczenberg.com/?p=4056
    http://schwarczenberg.com/?p=4056#/4056/22
    http://schwarczenberg.com/?p=4056#/4056/30
    http://schwarczenberg.com/?p=4056#/4056/1
    http://schwarczenberg.com/?p=5982#/5982/13

    Schwarczenberg’s post for the demonstration on February 6 is also noteworthy because it includes a short report from Bassem Tamimi himself, which contains the revealing admission that in the protests he organizes, “women and girls” are used “to shield the youths from the snipers.”

    This admission is not only interesting because it shows that Tamimi obviously approves of the use of women and girls as human shields to protect rock-throwing youths, but also because it implies that he knows very well that Israeli soldiers try their best to avoid any harm to women and children.

    In this context it is important to understand that Palestinians have long counted on the reluctance of Israeli soldiers to harm children in particular. As the prominent Palestinian cartoonist Nagi El-Ali gloated in an interview first published in 1985:

    “I saw for myself how afraid the Israeli soldiers were of the children. A child of ten or eleven had sufficient training to carry and use an RBG rifle. The situation was simple enough. The Israeli tanks were in front of them and the weapon was in their hands. The Israelis were afraid to go into the camps […]” http://warped-mirror.com/2013/03/16/...-of-palestine/

    That puts the recent incident that attracted so much media attention in perspective, because there is no doubt that Tamimi’s wife and daughter as well as their supporters who rushed to attack the soldier who was trying to arrest Mohammad Tamini for rock-throwing knew all along – primarily from their many previous attempts to provoke soldiers – that they were very likely to get their way and escape unscathed.

    So it isn’t surprising that Bassem Tamimi can calmly defend the regular participation of his children in demonstrations attended by rock-throwing youths. A Jerusalem Post report quotes him as commenting on the recent incident:

    “We have the right to resist. Our children are doing their duty and must be strong.”

    As far as Bassem Tamimi is concerned, it seems that no child is too young to be trained to do his duty: on March 4, he uploaded a picture of three little boys struggling to block a road with large rocks.



    According to a professional translator, the red caption under the picture reads: “Oh child, from whose shoes history is born when he walks [marches].” The comment added by Tamimi reads: “Oh, the generation of the coming victory, keep attacking, so that the homeland does not stay a hostage [pawn] in trembling hands” [i.e. probably the “trembling hands” of older people].

    Now compare the photo above to a photo by a Times of Israel photographer just before the clash that made headlines recently. Once Again, children were used to set up roadblocks, just as Bassem Tamimi said was needed:

    "At one point the demonstrators blocked the road. Little kids, under the leadership of the adolescents, began to take large rocks and line them up in the middle of the street.

    “They are blocking the army’s jeeps from driving up the road to come from behind later,” someone told me.

    The protest then shifted to an adjacent hill, where adolescents and younger children threw more rocks at soldiers as adult villagers and activists watched and cheered."




    There is no doubt that Bassem Tamimi is also very proud of his own dutiful children: after claiming in a recent FB post – uncharacteristically without any photographic evidence whatsoever – that “the IOF attacked the village of Nabi Saleh” and that his son Mohammad “was injured and broke his arm” during the resulting “clashes”, Bassem Tamimi posted several older photos and, calling his 11-year-old son “my hero,” encouraged him to “keep strong.”

    A few weeks earlier, he also proudly shared an album of over 200 photos documenting the widely admired exploits of his daughter Ahed. This album is very worthwhile viewing, as the huge number of images that go back a few years provide an excellent documentation of the grooming of the photogenic Ahed for use in confronting Israeli soldiers for the cameras from an early age.

    Both Bassem Tamimi and his wife Nariman also expressed their approval and admiration when Ahed posted the photo (above) that showed her throwing stones at (unseen) Israeli soldiers. Nariman Tamimi praised the image of her daughter as “awesome” (automatic translation from Arabic), while Bassem Tamimi posted an approving comment that, according to the somewhat garbled automatic translation, includes praise for her stone-throwing and “resistance.”

    That Bassem Tamimi approves of the stone-throwing by his daughter is also evident from his “Like” for the subsequent response, posted by FB user Nana Hourriyah – who refers to the Tamimis as “family” in one of her own recent posts – and who responded to the photo of the stone-throwing Ahed: “i will come back soon and throw them with you.”



    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...%3A%22R9%22%7D
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...%3A%22R8%22%7D

    Bassem Tamimi gave an arguably much more alarming “Like” to a response posted on February 15, when FB user Cost Andrian reacted to Ahed’s picture with the short comment “Good ahed,” illustrating his praise with an image promoting the Hamas-affiliated jihadist Al-Qassam Brigades.



    It is noteworthy that at the time of this writing, this person’s FB page displays “Likes” that include the terror group Al-Qassam; the publicly visible posts are almost exclusively photo-shopped magazine covers glorifying terrorism, and this person’s FB friends include people who either are or pretend to be active Palestinian terrorists like this one – but also several Tamimi family members, including Bassem and Nariman Tamimi as well as their daughter Ahed and Bilal Tamimi, who is or was affiliated with Tamimi Press.



    It turns out that Bassem Tamimi’s endorsement of the promotion of the Al-Qassam Brigades on his daughter’s FB page was not the only time he showed support for the terrorist group.

    His FB page “Likes” (screenshot available) include a “Community” page entitled “Resistance is Our DUTY: Palestine Always In our heart” [sic!]. The profile picture of this “community” page shows masked men, the cover photo has Arabic writing in addition to “FREE PALESTINE” and, partly obscured at the bottom in red, “AL QASSAM BRIGADES.”





    Among the recent posts on this page is a “Hamas Music Video” glorifying the Al Qassam Brigades.

    By itself, Bassem Tamimi’s “Like” for this page could perhaps be dismissed as a hardly meaningful gesture that might have been suggested by a FB “friend.” However, together with the rather shocking “Like” for the promotion of the Al Qassam Brigades on his daughter’s FB page, it seems justified to ask if Bassem Tamimi’s interpretation of the “right to resist” perhaps also includes the “right” to engage in jihadist terrorism.

    And indeed, there is additional evidence that the Tamimi family is supportive of terrorist attacks. On August 26, Nariman Tamimi shared a post that rejects the “Zionist” designation of several notorious female terrorists as such, insisting that they were instead (admirable) “rebels.”

    At the time of this writing, the original post published on August 24 had garnered 1021 “Likes” and had been shared by 139 people, among them numerous Tamimis, though it can of course not be definitely ascertained whether they are related.

    The individual photos from the post Nariman Tamimi shared can be seen here (click next); they include Ahlam Tamimi, Wafa Idris, Dalal Mughrabi and Leila Khaled.

    Ahlam Tamimi is the unrepentant mastermind of the 2001 Sbarro pizzeria bombing in Jerusalem that killed 16 Israeli civilians and wounded 130. It is unclear if Ahlam Tamimi is related to Bassem and Nariman Tamimi, but she used to be a resident of their village, and this proud murderer of 16 people, including several children, reportedly remains “much-loved” there.

    Wafa Idris is known (and widely revered among Palestinians) as the first Palestinian female suicide bomber. She detonated her 22-pound bomb on Jerusalem’s Jaffa Road in late January 2002, killing herself and one other person and injuring more than 100 others.

    Dalal Mughrabi is known (and also widely revered by Palestinians) for her participation in the Coastal Road massacre of March 1978 that resulted in the killing of 38 Israeli civilians, including 13 children; more than 70 people were wounded.

    Leila Khaled made a name for herself by participating in several airplane hijackings in 1969 and 1970. She has become a celebrated icon for Palestinian “resistance” who has been frequently interviewed; earlier this year, she reportedly declared during a BDS-sponsored tour of South Africa that the terror group Islamic State “is a Zionist, American organization. Boko Haram is another Netanyahu. [Its leaders] are more Zionist than the Zionists… Beware the imperialists. They are vicious and they are collaborating with the Zionists to control the whole world…”

    Bassem Tamimi’s upcoming US tour obviously provides the opportunity to ask him directly if he shares his wife’s view that these four women are not terrorists, but “rebels.” One could also ask him what message he wanted to convey when he clicked “Like” on a post promoting the Al-Qassam Brigades on his daughter’s FB page, and why he chose to “Like” another FB page promoting the jihadist terror group.

    But perhaps it is not really necessary to ask such questions.

    In the already mentioned tribute to the Tamimis and their village Nabi Saleh that was featured as a New York Times Magazine cover in March 2013, Bassem Tamimi made clear that in his view, “[t]aking up arms wasn’t … a moral error so much as a strategic one.” Reportedly, Tamimi and everyone else in the village “insisted they had the right to armed resistance; they just don’t think it works” and “they resented being asked to forswear bloodshed.”

    But it is apparently not necessary to forswear bloodshed and condemn terrorist attacks against civilians in order to win support from Amnesty International and praise from the European Union.

    And quite obviously, neither Amnesty nor the EU or the media are much bothered by the fact that a “human rights defender” like Bassem Tamimi would send his young children in an almost weekly ritual, year after year, to provoke soldiers that he regularly denounces as brutal and trigger-happy.
    Last edited by OReich; 09-03-2015 at 06:36 PM.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!



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  3. #2
    I started following The Temple Institute on Twitter (@TempleInstitute) and they post videos of what goes on at the Temple Mount. Currently I guess possessed by the Muslims even though Israeli's police it. They don't let Jews pray there by order of Bibi.

    But basically the Muslims just scream "Allahu Akbar" constantly to antagonize any Jews that go there. Not violent but obviously extremely annoying and not very friendly. And yeah, they are employing their children to do this daily work.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5npSnz97trM



    Here's a video of the Muslims throwing trash cans in the paths of Jews tyring to visit and again, constantly screaming "Allahu Akbar" to antagonize.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNkKPyPY7fo



    And yes, in both videos you'll notice children play an active dominant role because no one will lash out at a child. It's the same reason begging organizations in India all use children as the front men.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 09-03-2015 at 06:50 PM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  4. #3
    Some Palestinians may have attempted to escalate confrontations with IDF soldiers in order to further their agenda of Palestinian statehood. This therefore legitimizes the existence of Israel and justifies all the civilians they killed in the name of defense. Well done Oreich, well done.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Some Palestinians may have attempted to escalate confrontations with IDF soldiers in order to further their agenda of Palestinian statehood. This therefore legitimizes the existence of Israel and justifies all the civilians they killed in the name of defense. Well done Oreich, well done.
    I guess you dont have and wont have a issue when Israel finishes all Palestinians then wont you now? yes lets all spend trillions and trillions to Israel. I am surprised a Anti-Ron Paul like you wasn't banned.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Some Palestinians may have attempted to escalate confrontations with IDF soldiers in order to further their agenda of Palestinian statehood. This therefore legitimizes the existence of Israel and justifies all the civilians they killed in the name of defense. Well done Oreich, well done.
    Ooooooooh, so you agree with Palestinians, and think all Jews should be kicked out of Israel? Is that what you're saying? Or are you not aware of what Palestinians actually believe? Israel has offered them statehood over and over for 70 yrs, Palestine and other Muslim states promise to destroy Israel and kick out all the Jews. You side with Palestine. Congrats.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    I guess you dont have and wont have a issue when Israel finishes all Palestinians then wont you now? yes lets all spend trillions and trillions to Israel. I am surprised a Anti-Ron Paul like you wasn't banned.
    My comment was meant in jest, mocking the OReich for his lies and his feeble efforts to discredit the Palestinian cause with some very detailed post about inconsequential events that have no bearing on what the Israel-Palestine conflict is all about.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by AngryCanadian View Post
    I guess you dont have and wont have a issue when Israel finishes all Palestinians then wont you now? yes lets all spend trillions and trillions to Israel. I am surprised a Anti-Ron Paul like you wasn't banned.
    Are you deaf? How many times does Gaza's government have to promise to kill all the Jews for you to figure this out? How many times does Israel have to offer a peace treaty, only for Palestine to reject it and continue promising to kick out all Jews, before you figure out that Palestine means what they say? Seriously, Palestine promises to kill all the Jews, but Israel obviously stops them (much to your dismay); Israel has been able to kill every single one of them for 50 yrs, and yet their population has grown exponentially. And notice how no Palestinians get killed by Israel when Palestine isn't firing thousands of rockets into Israel out of apartment buildings? Or do you not pay attention to this conflict?

    Seriously? Do you at least admit that Hamas, overwhelmingly elected in Gaza, promises to kill all the Jews? Or is it against your political worldview to acknowledge Islamic radicalism? (Palestine didn't come up with this; Muhammad promised to kill all the Jews, they're just following his orders.)

    We also fund the PA and Hamas, which promise to destroy Israel and kick out or kill every Jew, and 2/3's of our funding goes to Muslim countries that brainwash their kids to hate Jews. But I notice that you don't care about this. Why not?
    Last edited by OReich; 09-03-2015 at 07:03 PM.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    My comment was meant in jest, mocking the OReich for his lies and his feeble efforts to discredit the Palestinian cause with some very detailed post about inconsequential events that have no bearing on what the Israel-Palestine conflict is all about.
    Palestine's government tells their kids to throw rocks at Jews and to kill Jews. Their own propaganda says this, you've seen this with your own eyes. What Palestinian cause am I discrediting? Plz tell me about this amazing Palestinian cause you heard about, because apparently Palestinians don't talk about this amazing cause of their's. They openly promise to destroy Israel and kick out all the Jews. You don't believe them? You think taking them literally is "lying?" Are you that detached from reality, that you can't even admit that Palestine believes what they say they believe?
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OReich View Post
    Ooooooooh, so you agree with Palestinians, and think all Jews should be kicked out of Israel? Is that what you're saying? Or are you not aware of what Palestinians actually believe? Israel has offered them statehood over and over for 70 yrs, Palestine and other Muslim states promise to destroy Israel and kick out all the Jews. You side with Palestine. Congrats.
    Yea, it's really that simple. Of course the Palestinians would not agree with statehood under the absurd conditions of Israel. The fact of the matter is the original crime was committed by Zionists and their British allies in 1948 that sought to give a majority of the land to a minority of the populace. I do not condone any attacks on civilians by either side, but it is clear which side had first committed crimes.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Yea, it's really that simple. Of course the Palestinians would not agree with statehood under the absurd conditions of Israel. The fact of the matter is the original crime was committed by Zionists and their British allies in 1948 that sought to give a majority of the land to a minority of the populace. I do not condone any attacks on civilians by either side, but it is clear which side had first committed crimes.
    Palestine has been promising to destroy Israel unconditionally for 70 yrs, you're telling or repeating lie when you say Palestine didn't accept an Israeli state because of "absurd conditions." Palestine refuses to allow Jews to live there, period, and has abusive Sharia law; those are "absurd conditions."

    No, its clear that you don't know what happened. As I keep trying to explain to you, you constantly ignore how Arabs start every war. Jordan got 75% of the Palestine mandate, not Israel. And what absurd conditions are you talking about? Seriously, I know you purposely kept this vague because you have no idea what you're talking about. Not once has Palestine ever said they would agree to a state under different conditions, you're talking about a strawman Palestine that agrees with you. Palestine doesn't agree with you. Palestine never wanted simply more land. They wanted to destroy Israel and kick out all its Jews, FIRST. Even the leader during the Palestine mandate, al-Husseini, was in the Nazi SS recruiting thousands for the Holocaust. The Arabs invaded Israel promising to kick out every Jew, they started thi war. And you forget that in Israel, ppl are treated equally; in Palestine, Sharia law persecutes everyone, especially women and infidels, and no Jew is ever allowed to live there, period. But obviously, that last sentence flew right over your head, because Palestine's crimes and persecution are invisible to you, just like how you fall for all the other silly Muslim propaganda: Attack Israel, then whine when Israel responds.
    Last edited by OReich; 09-03-2015 at 07:11 PM.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OReich View Post
    Palestine does not allow any Jew to live there, ever, and you're saying that Palestine didn't accept a state because of "absurd conditions?" Palestine didn't say this, and its obvious that not allowing Jews to live there is the only absurd condition in this discussion.

    No, its clear that you don't know what happened. As I keep trying to explain to you, you constantly ignore how Arabs start every war. Jordan got 75% of the Palestine mandate, not Israel. And what absurd conditions are you talking about? Seriously, I know you purposely kept this vague because you have no idea what you're talking about. Not once has Palestine ever said they would agree to a state under different conditions, you're talking about a strawman Palestine that agrees with you. Palestine doesn't agree with you. Palestine never wanted simply more land. They wanted to destroy Israel and kick out all its Jews, FIRST. Even the leader during the Palestine mandate, al-Husseini, was in the Nazi SS recruiting thousands for the Holocaust. The Arabs invaded Israel promising to kick out every Jew, they started thi war. And you forget that in Israel, ppl are treated equally; in Palestine, Sharia law persecutes everyone, especially women and infidels, and no Jew is ever allowed to live there, period. But obviously, that last sentence flew right over your head, because Palestine's crimes and persecution are invisible to you, just like how you fall for all the other silly Muslim propaganda: Attack Israel, then whine when Israel responds.
    I'm keeping it vague because I don't wish to spend too much time articulating my opinion to an idiot who wouldn't listen anyway. My post is for anyone else on ronpaulforums who happens to read this thread so they can maybe understand what is really important in this conflict.

    No wars were started prior to 1948, after the partition plan was to be implemented and the land was to be divided in a clearly unfair manner. And you don't need to state obvious lies about Jordan receiving 75% of mandatory palestine, when it reads right there that the Jewish state was to receive 56% of it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...osed_Partition

    I don't wish to discuss anything with you anymore as you inject so many unrelated things into the discussion, and your response to what was my main point was an outright lie. cya later, lying zionist agent

  14. #12
    I did not see any kids with machine guns attacking Israeli troops in these vids.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    I'm keeping it vague because I don't wish to spend too much time articulating my opinion to an idiot who wouldn't listen anyway. My post is for anyone else on ronpaulforums who happens to read this thread so they can maybe understand what is really important in this conflict.

    No wars were started prior to 1948, after the partition plan was to be implemented and the land was to be divided in a clearly unfair manner. And you don't need to state obvious lies about Jordan receiving 75% of mandatory palestine, when it reads right there that the Jewish state was to receive 56% of it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...osed_Partition

    I don't wish to discuss anything with you anymore as you inject so many unrelated things into the discussion, and your response to what was my main point was an outright lie. cya later, lying zionist agent
    Lol its a fact. Jordan got 75% of the Palestine mandate, the Palestinian flag is Jordan's without a star (drawn in 1967), 90% of Jordanians call themselves Palestinian, and Palestinians in the territories would happily join Jordan if they didn't hate Jordan's foreign Hashemite king (everyone hates everyone there). Its just a fact. Go look up the Palestine mandate. You can pretend history began after Jordan was created, but that just shows that you're pretending.

    And you consistently ignore the fact that Palestine will never allow to Jew to live there, has oppressive Sharia law in general, and promises to destroy Israel and kick out all its Jews. This is what they have always said. You can pretend that I "inject so many unrelated things into the discussion," but this just demonstrates your religious refusal to acknowledge basic facts: Palestine has never wanted peace, Palestine has always promised to kick out all the Jews and take all the land, just like the Muslim states invading Israel kicked out 99% of their Jews (and all those Arab Jews went to Israel). Israel allows Jews to live there with equal rights, Palestine promises to kick out all of them (while Gaza promises to kill all of them, in order to follow Muhamad's orders), and you declare your support for Palestine. Always remember this: you're siding with the ones who want to kick out all the Jews. That's not unrelated. You support the ones who want to kick out all the Jews. That's the side you're on.

    Let me ask you a simple question: Do you think Israel's Jews should be kicked out? Even the several million who are descendants of Arab Jews kicked out between 1948-53? Do you support the Muslim effort to kick out all those Arab Jews all over again? Because this has always been the Muslim and Palestinian position, no matter how many times you whine that I'm making it up.
    Last edited by OReich; 09-03-2015 at 07:35 PM.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  16. #14
    I don't feel bad for saying "I don't give a $#@!." Let the fuggers lob suitcase nukes at each other.

    What I won't do is allow this, the U.S. Federal government, to send aid to either party on my dime.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I don't feel bad for saying "I don't give a $#@!." Let the fuggers lob suitcase nukes at each other.

    What I won't do is allow this, the U.S. Federal government, to send aid to either party on my dime.
    I agree. No need for you to jump on the Palestinian Jew-killing bandwagon, just say we should be neutral. I'm half-Israeli, that doesn't change the fact that US security has nothing to do with Israel and the Middle East. Notice that's not what RPFers actually say. They support Palestine.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  18. #16
    Israel can kiss my ass. The Palestinians have every right to repel those foreign invaders. Hell if they don't, then those zionist genocidal maniacs are going to exterminate them.

    Just an afterthought... it is my opinion that the only reason here in America there is this deep seeded tradition of kissing Israels ass, is because of some misguided Christian fundamentalist superstition regarding the end of times.

    $#@! that. I want no part of it.
    Last edited by Qdog; 09-03-2015 at 07:51 PM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Qdog View Post
    Israel can kiss my ass. The Palestinians have every right to repel those foreign invaders. Hell if they don't, then those zionist genocidal maniacs are going to exterminate them.

    Just an afterthought... it is my opinion that the only reason here in America there is this deep seeded tradition of kissing Israels ass, is because of some misguided Christian fundamentalist superstition regarding the end of times.

    $#@! that. I want no part of it.
    Wait wait wait. Half of Israel's Jews are descenants of Arab Jews kicked out of Muslim countries between 1948-53, and you support kicking them all out again? You're calling all those millions of ppl, refugees and children of refugees from Arab countries, "foreign invaders?"

    Oh, and do you deny that Palestine says they want to kill all the Jews, or do you think they're just sarcastic? And if Israel wanted to kill all Palestinians, then why have they offered them their own state repeatedly since before 1948? You think Israel secretly opposes the treaties they offer, and that Palestine secretly wants the deals they reject? Seriously, actually try to apply your delusions to these actual facts for just a second.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  21. #18
    Why does the Israeli army like to kill kids so much?

    A journalist who saw the incident said some of the children who survived were running away when another shell seemed to be aimed at them.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ling-four.html

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I did not see any kids with machine guns attacking Israeli troops in these vids.
    Apparently the Israeli trolls are back.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Why does the Israeli army like to kill kids so much?





    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ling-four.html
    Good find.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by OReich View Post
    Lol its a fact. Jordan got 75% of the Palestine mandate, the Palestinian flag is Jordan's without a star (drawn in 1967), 90% of Jordanians call themselves Palestinian, and Palestinians in the territories would happily join Jordan if they didn't hate Jordan's foreign Hashemite king (everyone hates everyone there). Its just a fact. Go look up the Palestine mandate. You can pretend history began after Jordan was created, but that just shows that you're pretending.

    And you consistently ignore the fact that Palestine will never allow to Jew to live there, has oppressive Sharia law in general, and promises to destroy Israel and kick out all its Jews. This is what they have always said. You can pretend that I "inject so many unrelated things into the discussion," but this just demonstrates your religious refusal to acknowledge basic facts: Palestine has never wanted peace, Palestine has always promised to kick out all the Jews and take all the land, just like the Muslim states invading Israel kicked out 99% of their Jews (and all those Arab Jews went to Israel). Israel allows Jews to live there with equal rights, Palestine promises to kick out all of them (while Gaza promises to kill all of them, in order to follow Muhamad's orders), and you declare your support for Palestine. Always remember this: you're siding with the ones who want to kick out all the Jews. That's not unrelated. You support the ones who want to kick out all the Jews. That's the side you're on.

    Let me ask you a simple question: Do you think Israel's Jews should be kicked out? Even the several million who are descendants of Arab Jews kicked out between 1948-53? Do you support the Muslim effort to kick out all those Arab Jews all over again? Because this has always been the Muslim and Palestinian position, no matter how many times you whine that I'm making it up.
    I said I won't respond but I want to address your lies again. The creation of Jordan was entirely separate from the Palestine partition plan and had 0 bearing on the division of the land. I don't know why you are inventing random numbers without any rationale, 75%, 90%... where does this $#@! come from? Why do you just make $#@! up?

    And to answer your question, I think anyone who came to live on land that had been stolen from the original owners should obviously leave, as they had no right to take that land in the first place. To argue contrary to this you are only endorsing theft, unless of course you believe God himself awarded this land to all the Jews from all over the world, and in that case, you may as well stop posting here as no one will take you seriously (not that anyone does, anyway.)

    Also, I just found some old posts of yours on your maybemaybenot account, where you were telling more lies and couldn't even respond to my post . Why don't you just get lost? You're not convincing anyone
    Last edited by Influenza; 09-04-2015 at 12:50 AM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    I said I won't respond but I want to address your lies again. The creation of Jordan was entirely separate from the Palestine partition plan and had 0 bearing on the division of the land. I don't know why you are inventing random numbers without any rationale, 75%, 90%... where does this $#@! come from? Why do you just make $#@! up?

    And to answer your question, I think anyone who came to live on land that had been stolen from the original owners should obviously leave, as they had no right to take that land in the first place. To argue contrary to this you are only endorsing theft, unless of course you believe God himself awarded this land to all the Jews from all over the world, and in that case, you may as well stop posting here as no one will take you seriously (not that anyone does, anyway.)
    You're the one singling out Israel's land theft as if its worse than the Arabs stealing more land during the same five yr period. You just ignore everything the Arabs do. Between 1948-53, Israel kicked out 700,000 Muslims (while being invaded by five countries promising to kick out every Jew), while the Arabs kicked out 900,000 Jews, and to this very day the Arabs promise to kick every Jew out of Israel (half of whom are the descendants of Arab Jews kicked out between 1948-53). You're siding with the religious fanatics trying to expel millions and steal more land.

    Jordan was part of the Palestine Mandate until 1923, this is a simple fact. It got 75% of the land, go calculate the territorial area yourself. And on top of that, all of the Ottoman Empire's territory was divided up, but only Israel/Palestine, after Jordan's creation, is what ppl analyze. When Israel was created in 1948 (when they declared themselves a state), not a single inch of land was stolen by anyone, period. The Arabs then invaded Israel, promising to kick out every Jew, because Islam says that no land ruled by Islam can ever be ceded, this is just a fact, its what Islam states, its what they believe. Its the same reason they conquered Jerusalem and Istanbul/Constantinople from Christianity the second time. Palestine said and still says that no Jew can live on any of this land, this is why Palestine is Jew-free today. When the Arabs invaded Israel's made-up borders in 1948, Israel then kicked out 700,000 Muslims, 2/3's of the Muslim population and about 1/3 of the total population of Israel's made-up borders (which was 55% Jewish), while the Arab countries kicked out 90% or 95% or more of their Jews, almost 900,000 ppl, and they all went to Israel. The Arabs literally stole more land in a war they started. And if you want to talk about 1948 wars, go look at the 14,000,000 ppl expelled in the India/Pakistan war, mostly by Pakistan. And if you want to talk about the modern era of mankind, go look at the 4,000,000 refugees from the Syrian civil war in the last five years (and Syria was attacking Israel constantly since before Israel stole an inch of land, always promising to kick out every Jew). The only way to side with Palestine on this is to ignore everything Palestine and the Arabs do, and act like everything Israel does is automatically worse. You simply hold Israel to different standards. Even if Israel did steal more land, or "the land," and they didn't, it wouldn't change the fact that this was 70 yrs ago, Israel is a secular democracy that treats each religion the same, and its the only country in the region that can say this. Palestine wants to kick out all the Jews today, Palestine wanted to kick out all the Jews back then, and that's if you ignore the constant promises to kill all the Jews (like the Arab League president before the 1948 war, Palestine's 1948 leader al-Husseini who was a recruiter for the Nazi SS, or Hamas which governs 40% of Palestinians today under a unity government with the PA). But if you want to side with the ppl who start every war, kicked out more ppl, and promise to kick out millions of Jews who were born in Israel, go ahead, but don't pretend you're basing your argument on human rights or property rights or anything like that; you have an anti-Israel fetish.
    Last edited by OReich; 09-04-2015 at 01:09 AM.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  26. #23
    Why does Israel deliberately target civilians?

    A new independent medical fact-finding mission in Gaza has detailed Israel’s deliberate killing of Palestinian civilians in its summer 2014 attack, codenamed Operation “Protective Edge.” Acts documented in the investigation include the use of human shields, close-range murder of civilians, targeting of medics, and more. -
    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/indepe...ion-deliberate

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Why does Israel deliberately target civilians?



    http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/indepe...ion-deliberate
    Twomp, your "independent" report from PHR-Israel comes from an anti-Israel activist group that wants to end the occupation without a peace treaty, consciously supporting the Palestinian effort to destroy Israel and kick out or kill every Jew (half of whom are descendants of Arab Jews kicked out between 1948-53, so you want to kick out the same Jews AGAIN). Most significant out of all the lies they spew in their reports, is how they totally ignore the Palestinian use of human shields, which they glorify every single day as a religious practice, making it blatantly obvious. The PHR-Israel report you cite even mentioned that IDF rockets hit nearby the main Gaza City hospital, totally ignoring the fact that Hamas HQ is underneath the Gaza City hospital (which was built by Israel), totally ignoring the fact that the Gaza City hospital was used to fire and store Iranian rockets. Hamas purposely fires from there and all other civilian areas, blatantly telling their ppl to get killed and ignore IDF warnings to leave buildings that are used to fire Iranian rockets, and promising to kill every Jew, and this anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian group ignores this in order to demonize Israel. They're as independent as you or Mahmoud Abbas, who glorifies and names streets and schools after Jew-murdering Islamic terrorists to this very day, who funded the Munich Olympic Massacre that slaughtered Israeli athletes on this very day back in 1972.

    Since you clearly support the Palestinian cause of ending the occupation without a peace treaty, I have a simple question for you. Do you, like other posters in this thread, and like the Muslim world more generally, support the Palestinian effort to destroy Israel and kick out 6 million Jews? Half of whom are the descendants of Arab Jews kicked out by Muslims between 1948-53? Do you support expelling all these Jews? Its a very simple question, let's see if you can handle it.







    Debunking PHR-Israel's Lies, Exposing Their Support For Palestinian Effort to Destroy Israel and Expel Its Jews

    As detailed below, PHR- does not possess any of this information, and the NGO is unqualified to issue its conclusions. In addition, the report does not address central issues such as the types of weapons and fighting methods used by both sides, the obstacles of asymmetric warfare, and Hamas’ systematic use of the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. Instead, PHR-I’s research contains fundamental methodological flaws; ignores Hamas violations and other evidence that does not comport with its one-sided, political agenda; and relies on a panel of eight “medical experts” (pg. 8), of which at least five have backgrounds in anti-Israel advocacy. All of this belies PHR-I’s claim that “The information and materials would be handled in a credible, objective and independent manner” (pg. 16).

    PHR-I also creates a false impression of scientific and investigative rigor, presenting 200+ pages of emotive testimonies and forensic details. However, the testimonies are largely unverifiable and are irrelevant to the allegations concerning Israel; likewise, the forensics relate to the nature of the patients’ wounds, not to the main claims of Israeli wrongdoing featured in the press release and report.

    Funding

    PHR-I is funded by the European Commission, Sweden (via Diakonia), Germany (via Medico International and EED), the Netherlands, and Switzerland (via HEKS-EPER). In 2008-2013, the New Israel Fund (NIF) authorized grants worth $1,090,553 to PHR-I (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013).

    According to PHR-I, the following individuals and organizations provided support, “financial and otherwise,” for the report: “Marwan Diab and Rafeeq Musallam, ActiveStills/ Anne Paq, American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), Science and Human Rights Program, British Shalom-Salaam Trust (UK), Christian Aid (UK), Comboni Sisters, HEKS-EPER, (Switzerland), Manos Unidas (Spain), Medact (UK), Medico International (Germany), Dignity Institute (Denmark), Inge Genefke and Bent Sørensen Anti Torture Support Foundation (Denmark), IRCT (Denmark), Open Society Foundations” (pg. 3).

    Panel of “independent medical experts”

    In order to conduct this study, PHR-I “recruited 8 independent international medical experts, unaffiliated with Israeli or Palestinian parties involved in the conflict” (p.8). However, many of the fact-finding members are political activists with histories of biased anti-Israel remarks. The inclusion of individuals with this background is in violation of legal and ethical fact-finding standards, such as those outlined in the Lund-London guidelines:

    Alicia Vacas – Published a letter in support of Kairos Palestine, a document written by Palestinian-Christian activists that calls for BDS and denies the Jewish historical connection to Israel. In an article she published following her visit to Gaza, she refused to call the conflict a war, but rather a “massacre” and referred to Israel’s “devilishly sophisticated and flourishing industry of death.”
    Laurel Baldwin-Ragaven – In an article published in The Lancet medical journal (August 30, 2014), Baldwin and others compared Israel to an apartheid state and called “on South Africa to expel the Israeli ambassador during this current conflict.”
    Jennifer Leaning – Steering Group member of the highly politicized Lancet Palestine Health Alliance. In 2009, she co-authored a piece in The Lancet, showing a photo of a damaged building described as the Al-Quds Hospital in Gaza. In fact, the picture was off an adjacent building. (The article has been removed.)
    Önder Özkalipci – Coordinator and co-editor of the UN Istanbul Protocol, which alleged that Israel’s actions concerning the Mavi Marmara (2010) constituted torture. Since 2013, he is a freelance consultant to the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights and PHR-I.
    Louis Reynolds – “Founding member and chair of People’s Heath Movement, South Africa” (pg. 19). People’s Heath Movement, South Africa participated in an August 2014 protest “calling for a Free Palestine.” On August 15, the international umbrella of People’s Heath Movement published a statement, “strongly condemn[ing] the brutal armed attack by the Israeli occupation military forces on Gaza Strip....these attacks have to be seen in the context of the decades‐long occupation and ethnic cleansing of the territory of historic Palestine....We therefore express full solidarity with the Palestinian people, who have resisted an illegal regime of occupation and apartheid for over 60 years. We condemn the war crimes committed by Israeli forces, which must be held accountable for the sake of universal justice.”
    PHR-I’s one-sided, political agenda

    From the outset, the “principal mandate” of the fact-finding was expressly one-sided and selective – “to investigate the health and human rights impact of events in the Gaza Strip” (pg. 25). As such, PHR-I focused almost entirely on “allegations against Israeli strategy and tactics used in its attack on Gaza” (pg. 15), claiming that it “had no access to evidence regarding the conduct of Palestinian armed combatants within Gaza… beyond what its members were told by interviewees” (pg. 26).

    A repeated theme in describing the purpose of the mission was “collecting evidence” and “documentation of evidence” – of Israeli guilt as reflected in the one-sided mandate. In fact, PHR-I “believes that the prima facie evidence it has collected and presented in this Report should be used for the purposes of legal determination of violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, whether through local or international justice mechanisms” (pg. 101). This should be seen in the context of the politicized campaigns surrounding the UN Human Rights Council “investigation” by William Schabas, as well as Palestinian Authority efforts focused on the International Criminal Court. PHR-I’s advocacy for international prosecutions of Israeli officials is in direct violation of NIF’s policy against “attempts to prosecute Israeli officials in foreign courts as an inherent principle of our dedication to Israeli democracy.”

    Further highlighting the political, as opposed to legal and human rights, motivation, PHR-I official Hadas Ziv stated, “The discourse surrounding Gaza is often times limited to the question of whether there were war crimes — but as far as I’m concerned, that’s not the issue. The more important question is why do we take for granted that such things happen every two years. The report’s conclusion, in my opinion, is that you don’t need to fix this or that about the army’s actions, but that we need to prevent the next war” (emphasis added).

    Evidence ignored

    Reading PHR-I’s press release and summary, one would not know that Hamas hid its leadership in hospitals; stored weapons in medical buildings, schools, mosques, and private homes; used ambulances to transport combatants and weapons; conducted military operations from within civilian areas, including medical facilities, placing them in extreme danger; and stole humanitarian aid.

    A careful reading of the report shows that, in fact, PHR-I had ample evidence of Hamas’ systematic exploitation of medical facilities to illegally shield combatants from Israeli counterattacks. However, this dimension, which does not comport with PHR-I’s political agenda, was not emphasized in the analysis and is missing from the summary, conclusions, and recommendations.

    During one of the interviews in Shifa Hospital in Gaza, the interviewer recorded, in passing, that “this statement [was made] when a Qassam rocket took off nearby” (pp. 134-137). In other words, PHR-I was aware of, and mission members had personally witnessed, the illegal use of hospitals by Palestinian combatants to shield themselves from counterstrikes.
    An official from the World Health Organization indicated similar circumstances near another hospital in Gaza: “Al Wafa Hospital was the only rehabilitation hospital in Gaza. In the course of this war, according to Mr. Daher [head of the WHO sub-office in Gaza], he believed there was an actual rocket launching site in the vicinity, but it was more than 200 meters away from the hospital” (pg. 50). (See this video for more evidence of Palestinian combatants fighting from within the facility, having built a tunnel entrance near it, as well as phone calls from the IDF confirming that it had been abandoned before striking it. None of these details appears in the PHR-I report.)
    PHR-I did not consider alternative explanations for casualties such as misfired Hamas rockets, “work accidents,” secondary explosions, and Hamas summary executions. Additionally, Gaza residents who protested the war were executed, as were at least 26 Palestinians accused of “collaborating” with Israel; a number of Palestinians were killed and wounded by Hamas while waiting for food at a distribution center.
    PHR-I accuses Israel of using an “indiscriminate device” in residential areas, “the barrel of a Tzefa Shirion, an Israeli mine-clearing system whose barrel is launched from a vehicle ahead of the advancing troops and contains a line (‘python’) of explosives” (pp. 35-36). Israel’s deployment of mine-clearing weapons in Gaza neighborhoods is itself evidence that Hamas had booby-trapped houses and streets, once again exploiting urban areas and turning them into legitimate targets.
    “During one visit of the first FFM team to Shifa Hospital, they were introduced to a senior Hamas official who was hospitalised alone in a room in a unit that was intended for more patients.” (pg. 57, fn 112)
    In a section alleging that “There was a sense of ‘no safe place’ [for people in Gaza] since many of those killed died either in their own homes or while fleeing them,” PHR-I refers to “Two patients were injured on a motorbike while one of them was transporting weapons” (pg. 38). This example and the interviews with the patients (pp. 114-117) actually undermine PHR-I’s claims of indiscriminate attacks and “flouting norms” of medical care. Interview J2 with the driver of the motorbike claims “that he was targeted intentionally, because the Israeli army suspects anybody riding a motorcycle and often hits them, thinking that they are going to launch rockets” (pg. 116). Yet, Interview J11 describes the passenger as “an officer for Hamas and that morning was carrying some weapons in his backpack” (pg. 114, emphasis added). Both patients were also transferred to Jordanian hospitals after Israel gave them passage through the Erez Crossing, which one of the interviewees describes as “fast and smooth” (pg. 116). (PHR-I appears to be bizarrely claiming that Israel made “no safe place” for Hamas to transport its weapons.)
    Although PHR-I relied extensively on allegations and supposed evidence provided by Hamas authorities in Gaza, it expressed doubt specifically about Hamas statistics that made the case against Israel less compelling: “It is difficult to estimate the exact number of severely injured among the approximately 11,000 injured survivors of the conflict. According to Dr. Muhammad Al Kashef, General Director of International Cooperation in the Department for the Ministry of Health in Gaza, about 3,000 of the most seriously injured were formally hospitalised and required some form of surgical intervention….The FFM teams were also not able to ascertain whether these numbers, which seem relatively low, were attributable to the limited capacity of the hospitals or to the actual number of severe injuries requiring surgical intervention.” (pg. 32) It is also telling that PHR-I’s skepticism was that the percentage of serious injuries was low, not that the overall number of injuries, provided by Hamas, was high.
    Methodological Flaws

    There are numerous methodological flaws and inherent limitations concerning the research (see pp 25-26), which cast doubt on PHR-I’s ability to draw accurate and independent conclusions.

    Flaws in the “forensic” evidence

    PHR-I claims to have included “four [individuals] with special expertise in the fields of forensic medicine and pathology” (pg. 8) on its panel. This was essential for creating a rhetorical façade of scientific rigor and valuable evidence.

    However, a careful reading of the report demonstrates that the forensic value of the evidence therein is extremely limited.

    In addition to the problems detailed below, it is important to note that PHR-I did not conduct ballistic tests on the weapons fragments and shrapnel discussed in the report (to the extent that any such evidence existed; certainly none was preserved through an acceptable chain of custody). Moreover, “Because of a lack of military expertise, the FFM was not in a position to provide a comprehensive analysis of the types of weapons used by Israeli forces” (pg. 26). It is, therefore, impossible to conclusively attribute the wounds to Israeli strikes, as opposed to deliberate or accidental attacks by Hamas against civilians in Gaza.

    There was also a hint within the report of evidence tampering and manipulation – “One other allegation regarding use of flechettes was made at Khuza’a, where the second FFM team were shown flechette darts by Dr. Kamal Qdeih, a local private doctor, in his clinic. However, these were not embedded in walls but lying on the floor” (pg. 55). As noted above, this central issue was not fleshed out or researched further, nor was it reflected in the analysis and conclusions.

    Interviews are not forensic evidence

    The publication is replete with interviews with “survivors” and “victims” of Israeli attacks, and PHR-I uses them as “evidence” pertaining to questions of international law, including whether the strikes were “indiscriminate” and “disproportionate.”

    The accounts are entirely subjective, emotive, and anecdotal. Frequently, there are claims to have identified the type of Israeli plane and/or weapon used in an attack, but in a manner that is physically unlikely if not impossible. Nonetheless, PHR-I repeats them.
    “Most of the interviews were held in Arabic with the assistance of an interpreter if the interviewer was not an Arabic-speaker” (pg. 23). The identity of this interpreter (or interpreters) is not provided; as such, any connections to Hamas or other conflicts of interest cannot be determined.
    It is unknown how many of the interviewees are members of Hamas or other terror groups, or were intimidated or otherwise approached by Hamas before meeting with PHR-I.
    In some instances, the interviews were conducted with relatives or acquaintances of the wounded individual, further removed from an objective account of the incident in question.
    “Fieldworkers of PHR-Israel, Al Mezan, PCHR, GCMHP…accompanied the FFM teams to interviews” (p.20). As noted below, these are highly politicized, anti-Israel groups, and they lack credibility; their effect on the accuracy of the interviews is unknown.
    Hamas provided some, if not all, the “evidence”

    The overall dependency on information from Hamas undermines the independence of the investigation and any forensic claims made in the report.

    PHR-I was “granted access to relevant evidence by officials of the [Hamas] Ministry of Health, but encountered difficulties and some lack of transparency regarding the necessary procedures for access to forensic pathology materials, specifically tissue samples and X-rays, which fall under the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice.” (pg. 26)
    There is ambiguity as to whether the photographs to PHR-I for use in the report were obtained from the “Shifa Hospital Forensics Department photo archive” (pg. 30) or government forensic department (“Gaza’s Forensics Department photo archive,” pg. 225). Regardless, “Authority for access to photographs, X-rays and tissue samples resides with the Ministry of Justice” (pg. 24).
    All files and photographs pertaining to fatalities were provided by Hamas government officials.
    It is unknown whether the physicians interviewed in the hospitals were affiliated with and/or intimidated by Hamas.
    As mentioned above, it is unknown how many of the interviewees are members of Hamas or other terror groups, or were intimidated or otherwise approached by Hamas before meeting with PHR-I.
    “Regarding tissue samples, a Ministry of Health official at Shifa Hospital...described the collection as haphazard and often unlinked to a particular patient....He showed the first FFM team tissue samples, some of which he said had been collected during the current armed conflict, which he said are kept in formalin (for tissue samples) or in acetone (for other material samples). The team observed that the sample containers with acetone were not sealed properly.” (pg. 24, emphasis added)
    Photographs, not autopsies

    All the claims about fatalities, including cause of death and the nature of the wounds, are based on “medical files” and “photographic materials from the morgue of Gaza’s main hospital, Shifa Hospital, in Gaza City.” Pointedly, “the forensic experts did not perform autopsies.” Nor were autopsies performed at the time of death, “due to religious and traditional customs prohibiting the practice” (pg. 23).
    The report acknowledged “limitations of evaluating the injuries,” but deemed the photographs “authentic” (pg. 30). The basis for this estimation is not provided.
    Repetition of unverifiable allegations

    As noted above, PHR-I dismissed Israeli claims concerning the circumstances of civilian casualties and other mitigating factors because the investigators:

    “did not have access to UNRWA facilities...They could therefore investigate neither the public health impact of displacement in these facilities, nor the allegations made by the Israeli government regarding the abuse of such facilities for military purposes – an allegation used to justify several attacks on such facilities.” (p.26)
    “also had no access to evidence regarding the conduct of Palestinian armed combatants within Gaza, and the teams were not able to examine official Israeli allegations regarding misuse of civilian or medical facilities for military purposes...” (p.26)
    In sharp contrast, unverified and unverifiable accusations by Palestinian representatives are quoted extensively throughout the report. Even when claims could not be verified or members of Hamas were present during the interview, PHR-I repeats inflammatory and provocative allegations despite the absence of any evidence or corroboration. This is a blatant violation of professional fact-finding standards.

    “Irregular weapons”

    For example, the authors of the report admit that they were unable to verify claims by Palestinian doctors regarding the use of “irregular weapons” and other “phenomena they saw as strange or inexplicable.” Although “none of the tissue samples taken in the possession of the forensic experts of the Ministry of Justice of Gaza were taken out of Gaza for further toxicological, biological or chemical examinations to confirm or refute these allegations” (pp. 53-55), nonetheless, PHR-I repeated the accusations “verbatim as described to the team” (p.54):

    “A suspicion of the use of Dense Inert Metal Explosives (DIME)” – DIME are an experimental group of tungsten-based munitions, intended for “low collateral” damage blasts. There is unproven speculation that they are “highly carcinogenic and harmful to the environment.” Conspiracy theorists (such as Dr. Mads Gilbert) and other partisan sources have speculated that Israel has used them in Lebanon and Gaza, although it has never been established that Israeli even possesses DIME weaponry or that any military has ever used them. Rather, the speculation about DIME is an attempt to demonize Israel.
    Allegations that “‘Computer chips’ with Sony markings embedded as shrapnel in people’s bodies.” In addition, “the team was shown remains of explosives with the Motorola logo embossed in them. It is unclear what these remains are and which patients they were associated with, and the team could not ascertain their source.” (pg. 55)
    Allegations of “the possibility of a gas of unknown type being used,” “a sewage-like smell,” and “smelly smoke.”
    Some of these claims border on conspiracy theories. It is shocking that supposed scientific experts would deem them credible enough to be repeated. Furthermore, including permitted weapons such as white phosphorous (which was not deployed), flechettes, and tear gas in a section on “irregular weapons” is a fundamental distortion and appears designed to mislead.

    Reliance on anti-Israel political advocacy NGOs

    In addition to Hamas officials, Gaza-based political advocacy NGOs played a central role in facilitating “access and meetings.”

    “Access and meetings were facilitated by PHR-Israel in partnership with local Palestinian non-governmental organisations: Al Mezan, Gaza Community Mental Health Programme (GCMHP), and Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR)” (p.8). These groups are all involved in delegitimization campaigns against Israel, including the lawfare attacks recommended by PHR-I, and lack medical expertise.
    Reliance on these groups is further evidence of the lack of independence and objectivity of the investigators.
    PHR-I was forced to rely on the Hamas government forensics department, which “is under the authority of the Ministry of Justice, and has been active in the last three or four wars. Authority for access to photographs, X-rays and tissue samples resides with the Ministry of Justice” (p.24).
    Distorted legal claims

    Despite drawing legal conclusions and providing interpretations of international law in its publications, PHR-I does not possess expertise in these issues.

    One example is PHR-I’s accusation that Israel failed to provide “precautions to protect civilians, including the absence of effective warnings.” PHR-I even cited to the discredited Goldstone Report in an attempt to bolster its allegations that Israel’s warnings were insufficient, if not themselves violations of international law.

    The fact that in some cases warnings were not 100% effective does not indicate any violation of law; there is no requirement under international law to provide 100% effective warnings. In fact, under IHL, Israel is only required to give general warnings to the extent they are feasible and only when doing so would not hamper Israel’s chance of success in military operations or compromise the element of surprise. Nevertheless, Israel’s warning procedure far exceeds the legal requirements and is more extensive than that of any other army. In many instances, Hamas directed the civilian population to disregard warnings and even directed people to return to targeted sites as human shields.
    Last edited by OReich; 09-04-2015 at 01:33 PM.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Israeli Troops Ordered to Kill Civilians on Sight During Gaza Invasion

    Israel has repeatedly denied reports of deliberate targeting of civilians during its wars in the Gaza Strip, those claims were once again proven false today with the release of a new report by Israeli veterans NGO Breaking the Silence.

    The report features testimony from more than 60 Israeli soldiers who confirmed that not only did they deliberately target civilians during the most recent invasion, but that they were explicitly ordered to do so.

    “Whoever you see there, you kill,” is how one soldier summed up the orders. He said soldiers were told the civilians “knew they’re not supposed to be there” and therefore they were to kill anyone who wasn’t an Israeli soldier on sight.
    http://news.antiwar.com/2015/05/04/i...gaza-invasion/

    Testimony from 60 soldiers! No matter how much the Israel trolls try to lie about it, doesn't make it true. Israel likes to kill civilians.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Israeli Troops Ordered to Kill Civilians on Sight During Gaza Invasion



    http://news.antiwar.com/2015/05/04/i...gaza-invasion/

    Testimony from 60 soldiers! No matter how much the Israel trolls try to lie about it, doesn't make it true. Israel likes to kill civilians.
    This is two straight NGO reports you're producing that condemn the targeting of a civilian area while totally failing to mention that Hamas was attacking from that exact location. That's called propaganda and lies.

    I've already discredited your first NGO, PHR-Israel, explaining how they ignore all Palestinian attacks, including Palestinian rocket fire (Iranian rockets) from the very civilian areas that their reports complain are being attacked. Now you change the subject to ANOTHER foreign-funded NGO whose sole purpose is to demonize Israel and ignore everything Palestinians do. Breaking the Silence relies on anonymous sources, ignores all Palestinian attacks, and complains that civilian areas are targeted while ignoring Hamas attacks from those exact areas. Its called propaganda, and you're a gullible fool for believing it. Israel is the one country in the entire Middle East where ppl can say what they want without being prosecuted by the government, and you rely on only anonymous quotes from soldiers? You honestly believe the crap that BTS puts out? The "testimony" you do provide above (obviously from an unnamed soldier) blatantly says "We told them not to come to this area," but BTS of course doesn't explain that at all, they don't explain that the IDF tells ppl to LEAVE areas that Hamas is attacking from, while Hamas tells them to stay there and die for martyrdom and the very propaganda that you swallow and regurgitate. Its amazing how all you "skeptical" conspiracy theorists can swallow propaganda from ANONYMOUS SOURCES.

    So again you present crappy, meaningless "testimony" that's completely unverifiable, from a foreign-funded organization whose sole purpose is to demonize Israel and no other country (including Palestine, which promises genocide). And of course, you refuse to answer one basic, simple yes-or-no question: Do you think Israel's six million Jews should be expelled? Just answer this simple question. Remember, half of them are Arab Jews whose ancestors were kicked out of Muslim countries between 1948-53, do you support kicking them out AGAIN? Some ppl here on RPF are at least honest in their view that Jews should be kicked out of Israel, let's hear your position on Palestine's goals.

    http://mosaicmagazine.com/observatio...ts-propaganda/
    http://www.thetower.org/1999-watchdo...criminate-idf/
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-C...g-what-silence
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.659781

    Its amazing how many ppl jump on the Palestinian human shield bandwagon, even on RPF. They blatantly tell their childrn to get themselves killed, they're open and honest about it, they blatantly try to kill all Jews, they're open and honest about it, they blatantly fire from civilian areas for the stated purpose of getting their own ppl killed and then you have foreign NGO's pretending to give a damn about human rights, vilifying the IDF, while ignoring the human shields, ignoring ALL Palestinian aggression altogether, and ignoring all Israeli warnings of future attacks to avoid the very human shields that Palestine openly uses. This is two straight NGO reports you're producing that condemn the targeting of a civilian area while totally failing to mention that Hamas was attacking from that exact location. That's called propaganda and lies.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by OReich View Post
    This is two straight NGO reports you're producing that condemn the targeting of a civilian area while totally failing to mention that Hamas was attacking from that exact location. That's called propaganda and lies.

    I've already discredited your first NGO, PHR-Israel, explaining how they ignore all Palestinian attacks, including Palestinian rocket fire (Iranian rockets) from the very civilian areas that their reports complain are being attacked. Now you change the subject to ANOTHER foreign-funded NGO whose sole purpose is to demonize Israel and ignore everything Palestinians do. Breaking the Silence relies on anonymous sources, ignores all Palestinian attacks, and complains that civilian areas are targeted while ignoring Hamas attacks from those exact areas. Its called propaganda, and you're a gullible fool for believing it. Israel is the one country in the entire Middle East where ppl can say what they want without being prosecuted by the government, and you rely on only anonymous quotes from soldiers? You honestly believe the crap that BTS puts out? The "testimony" you do provide above (obviously from an unnamed soldier) blatantly says "We told them not to come to this area," but BTS of course doesn't explain that at all, they don't explain that the IDF tells ppl to LEAVE areas that Hamas is attacking from, while Hamas tells them to stay there and die for martyrdom and the very propaganda that you swallow and regurgitate. Its amazing how all you "skeptical" conspiracy theorists can swallow propaganda from ANONYMOUS SOURCES.

    So again you present crappy, meaningless "testimony" that's completely unverifiable, from a foreign-funded organization whose sole purpose is to demonize Israel and no other country (including Palestine, which promises genocide). And of course, you refuse to answer one basic, simple yes-or-no question: Do you think Israel's six million Jews should be expelled? Just answer this simple question. Remember, half of them are Arab Jews whose ancestors were kicked out of Muslim countries between 1948-53, do you support kicking them out AGAIN? Some ppl here on RPF are at least honest in their view that Jews should be kicked out of Israel, let's hear your position on Palestine's goals.

    http://mosaicmagazine.com/observatio...ts-propaganda/
    http://www.thetower.org/1999-watchdo...criminate-idf/
    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-C...g-what-silence
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.659781

    Its amazing how many ppl jump on the Palestinian human shield bandwagon, even on RPF. They blatantly tell their childrn to get themselves killed, they're open and honest about it, they blatantly try to kill all Jews, they're open and honest about it, they blatantly fire from civilian areas for the stated purpose of getting their own ppl killed and then you have foreign NGO's pretending to give a damn about human rights, vilifying the IDF, while ignoring the human shields, ignoring ALL Palestinian aggression altogether, and ignoring all Israeli warnings of future attacks to avoid the very human shields that Palestine openly uses. This is two straight NGO reports you're producing that condemn the targeting of a civilian area while totally failing to mention that Hamas was attacking from that exact location. That's called propaganda and lies.
    Yadda, yadda, yadda, more crybaby trolling from the the Israeli troll. You say all this stuff about propaganda then all of your links are directly from Israeli propaganda outlets. Israel likes to kill children then say the word "Hamas" to make it seem like its okay and of course here you are doing the same thing. Regurgitating propaganda like a good dog.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by twomp View Post
    Yadda, yadda, yadda, more crybaby trolling from the the Israeli troll. You say all this stuff about propaganda then all of your links are directly from Israeli propaganda outlets. Israel likes to kill children then say the word "Hamas" to make it seem like its okay and of course here you are doing the same thing. Regurgitating propaganda like a good dog.
    No, the sources I just posted are private organizations who regularly criticize the Israeli government, not "propaganda." Funny how you take the one country in the Middle East with free speech, and call everyone there a government agent and every news organization "propaganda." But, the "independent" "non-governmental" organizations whose reports you keep posting? Breaking the Silence, and PHR-Israel? They're funded by European governments to specifically reach negative conclusions about Israeli military tactics, and to specifically ignore Hamas firing Iranian rockets from civilian areas. Your sources are propaganda. Hamas HQ is literally in the Gaza City main hospital (built by Israel), where they hold their meetings and press conferences (and thus all journalists know this, and its where they take journalists to interrogate them), and they launch missiles from right outside of it. Your "independent" "NGO" complains when Israel destroys rocket launchers right outside the hospital, ignoring the part about the Iranian rocket launchers.

    Breaking the Silence (which uses anonymous sources) and PHR-Israel get funding from the governments of Sweden, Switzerland, Holland, Denmark, Ireland, Belgium, France, Germany and Spain. These organizations explicitly take political positions and explicitly say they're looking for Israeli war crimes and human rights violations only, and ignore all Palestinian violence whatsoever, complaining that Israel is doing horrible things while completely ignoring the thousands of Iranian rockets Palestinians were firing into Israel during the 2014 Gaza War, and Iranian rocket attacks only stopped because Israel stopped them.

    http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/p...rights_israel_
    http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/b...hovirm_shtika_

    Now answer the question: Do you think Israel's 6 million Jews should be kicked out? I've asked you this repeatedly, and for some reason you just don't want to answer it. Around half or more than half of them are from Muslim countries that kicked their families out. You think they should be kicked out by Muslims again?
    Last edited by OReich; 09-04-2015 at 10:43 PM.
    Yours is the aim to make this grand country grander,
    This you will do, that's our strong, firm belief.
    Hail to the one we selected as commander,
    Hail to the President! Hail to the Chief!

  33. #29
    Israel doesn't have free speech but nice try. Antiwar.com isn't funded by "European" organizations but nice try at spinning and even if it were, it would be more "free" than Israel's state run propaganda which you continually try to peddle.

    Broadcasting journalists say new Israeli law violates free speech

    The Israeli parliament has passed a law banning journalists working for the country’s public broadcast authority from expressing their opinions on air.

    Journalists immediately accused the government of trying to stifle dissent.

    Israel’s press council urged parliament to cancel the law, which was passed by the Knesset early Thursday in the middle of the night, saying it violates free speech.

    According to the law, journalists must “avoid one-sidedness, prejudice, expressing personal opinions, giving grades and affixing labels.”

    Cabinet minister Ofir Akunis said the law only applies to newscasts. He believes some journalists who are critical of the government “aren’t being professional and are doing it for political reasons.”

    Israel Radio diplomatic correspondent Chico Menashe, quoted by the Times of Israel, called the clause “shameful” and said he “hoped the prime minister would see the clause and work to change it.”

    Broadcaster Esty Perez of Israel Radio wrote in a series of tweets: “A democratic state that prohibits in law that journalists for the public broadcaster express opinions exhibits the weakness and panic that characterises weak dictatorships... Handcuff me. I expressed an opinion.”
    http://www.theguardian.com/media/gre...es-free-speech

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by OReich View Post
    No, the sources I just posted are private organizations who regularly criticize the Israeli government, not "propaganda." Funny how you take the one country in the Middle East with free speech, and call everyone there a government agent and every news organization "propaganda." But, the "independent" "non-governmental" organizations whose reports you keep posting? Breaking the Silence, and PHR-Israel? They're funded by European governments to specifically reach negative conclusions about Israeli military tactics, and to specifically ignore Hamas firing Iranian rockets from civilian areas. Your sources are propaganda. Hamas HQ is literally in the Gaza City main hospital (built by Israel), where they hold their meetings and press conferences (and thus all journalists know this, and its where they take journalists to interrogate them), and they launch missiles from right outside of it. Your "independent" "NGO" complains when Israel destroys rocket launchers right outside the hospital, ignoring the part about the Iranian rocket launchers.

    Breaking the Silence (which uses anonymous sources) and PHR-Israel get funding from the governments of Sweden, Switzerland, Holland, Denmark, Ireland, Belgium, France, Germany and Spain. These organizations explicitly take political positions and explicitly say they're looking for Israeli war crimes and human rights violations only, and ignore all Palestinian violence whatsoever, complaining that Israel is doing horrible things while completely ignoring the thousands of Iranian rockets Palestinians were firing into Israel during the 2014 Gaza War, and Iranian rocket attacks only stopped because Israel stopped them.

    http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/p...rights_israel_
    http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/b...hovirm_shtika_

    Now answer the question: Do you think Israel's 6 million Jews should be kicked out? I've asked you this repeatedly, and for some reason you just don't want to answer it. Around half or more than half of them are from Muslim countries that kicked their families out. You think they should be kicked out by Muslims again?

    Your sources are propaganda
    Yet your sources mainly come from the Israeli Pro RightWingers supporters of your beloved Bibi.

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