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Thread: Court challenge to the bump-stock ban is being expedited

  1. #1

    Court challenge to the bump-stock ban is being expedited

    The appeal by the Plaintiffs against the BATFE in the bump stock ruling has been expedited. The United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit has ordered the parties to submit briefs by March 4th of 2019. That is extraordinarily fast by U.S. appeals court standards. The original ruling by the Circuit court hinged on the notion that ordinary words are ambiguous, and an agency can reverse previous rulings when the agency decides to do so. From the opinion:
    Most of the plaintiffs’ administrative law challenges are foreclosed by the Chevron doctrine, which permits an agency to reasonably define undefined statutory terms. See Chevron v. Nat. Res. Def. Council, 467 U.S. 837 (1984). Here, Congress defined “machinegun” in the NFA to include devices that permit a firearm to shoot “automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger,” 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), but it did not further define the terms “single function of the trigger” or “automatically.” Because both terms are ambiguous, ATF was permitted to reasonably interpret them, and in light of their ordinary meaning, it was reasonable for ATF to interpret “single function of the trigger” to mean “single pull of the trigger and analogous motions” and “automatically” to mean “as the result of a self-acting or self-regulating mechanism that allows the firing of multiple rounds through a single pull of the trigger.” ATF also reasonably applied these definitions when it concluded that bump stocks permit a shooter to discharge multiple rounds automatically with a single function of the trigger. That this decision marked a reversal of ATF’s previous interpretation is not a basis for invalidating the rule because ATF’s current interpretation is lawful and ATF adequately explained the change in interpretation.
    The Chevron doctrine gives enormous power to the administrative bureaucracies. An agency is not required to be consistent. An agency can change its interpretations of the law arbitrarily, as long as it can conjure up some justification of reasonableness.
    One of the major challenges to the bump stock ban is that it reverses long-standing interpretation of the statute by the BATFE.
    Both of President Trump's appointees to the Supreme Court, Justice Gorsuch, and Justice Kavanaugh, have been critical of the Chevron decision and its consequences. From eenews.net:
    The Chevron doctrine, which is named for a 1984 Supreme Court case, played a big role in the confirmation battle for Gorsuch, who wrote a scathing concurring opinion slamming the doctrine shortly before he was nominated for the high court. Senators focused several questions on the doctrine during Gorsuch's multiday hearing.
    While Chevron is unlikely to make front-page news during the Kavanaugh confirmation process, the debate over the future of the doctrine remains strong, particularly in conservative legal circles.
    The Chevron decision gives enormous power to unelected officials. It undercuts the rule of law, as interpretations of a rule can be reversed at any time, arbitrarily, and without any change in the law by Congress.

    More at: https://www.ammoland.com/2019/03/bum...appeals-in-dc/
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #2
    Since the trigger resets between shots, it's not a single function of the trigger. Lets see them squirm around that fact in the "government interest".
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Ryan
    In Washington you can see them everywhere: the Parasites and baby Stalins sucking the life out of a once-great nation.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    Since the trigger resets between shots, it's not a single function of the trigger. Lets see them squirm around that fact in the "government interest".
    They can't, I think Trump counted on that. (I still disagree with him about it though)
    And we might be rid of the entire Chevron doctrine from the same case.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4

  6. #5
    No biggie. The US Court of Appeals for DC is well known for their pro-gun and pro-liberty leanings. This one's in the bag.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    No biggie. The US Court of Appeals for DC is well known for their pro-gun and pro-liberty leanings. This one's in the bag.
    This one is going to SCOTUS one way or the other.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    This one is going to SCOTUS one way or the other.
    Our Natural Right “shall not be infringed”.

    Unless they write something on a piece of paper. Then you will comply.

    If you are bothered by a piece of paper, please present this to the SCOTUS?

    SCOTUS knocks it down. We won!!!!

    SCOTUS doesn’t knock it down. Oh shucks, now we must “comply”.

    Which is why the constitution is dead.


    Unless one does what we did and put that piece of paper to good use: wiping thoroughly after using the commode.

    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Our Natural Right “shall not be infringed”.

    Unless they write something on a piece of paper. Then you will comply.

    If you are bothered by a piece of paper, please present this to the SCOTUS?

    SCOTUS knocks it down. We won!!!!

    SCOTUS doesn’t knock it down. Oh shucks, now we have to comply.

    Which is why the constitution is dead.


    Unless one does what we did and put that piece of paper to good use: wiping thoroughly after using the commode.

    How do you know what I will do? YOU DON'T

    Quit bragging about your protest and trying to put others down when you don't even know anything about them.


    As for the court case, it is important because most Americans follow "the rules", it would be better if more of them were less that way but it is actually a good trait in general and required to keep civilization together, in any case it is our duty to make sure that "the rules" don't infringe their rights.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    Lets see them squirm around that fact in the "government interest".
    HA!

    It doesn't matter..... they don't need logic or a rational thought. They'll just make $#@! up and declare it law. If the higher court(s) agree or ignore it, then it stands. Stupid legal system.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    How do you know what I will do? YOU DON'T

    Quit bragging about your protest and trying to put others down when you don't even know anything about them.


    As for the court case, it is important because most Americans follow "the rules", it would be better if more of them were less that way but it is actually a good trait in general and required to keep civilization together, in any case it is our duty to make sure that "the rules" don't infringe their rights.



    I don’t have to ask why you are here again, it couldn’t be more obvious.

    Oh, btw, it was not a protest; it was an informational meeting.
    Last edited by PAF; 03-11-2019 at 04:32 AM.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    This one is going to SCOTUS one way or the other.

    Based upon historical precedent, by far the most likely outcome will be an UNfavorable ruling by the DC Court of Appeals followed by an appeal to SCOTUS which is promptly denied cert. The lower court ruling stands and now any poor schmucks who may have bought a Hellfire device back in the 90s, played with it a while then took it off and threw it in a box to be promptly forgotten are now a major felony waiting to happen. Since they're gun owners the likelihood of trouble is much higher than otherwise, and ATF will ruthlessly prosecute these harmless violations. With their infamous something like 98% conviction rate we wind up with 100s more innocent people in prison, probably for decades assuming other bogus charges (a virtual certainty given ATF's record) and barred from owning firearms for the rest of their lives.

    But hey, no biggie. Trump's got this, 46D chess and all. Anyone who's so hopelessly, childishly naive as to still believe that bull$#@!, or have faith in the courts where gun issues are concerned is, quite frankly, beyond redemption.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  14. #12
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    John Roberts rejects bid to put hold on Trump administration ban on 'bump stock' gun attachments: report

    03/26/19

    Chief Justice John Roberts rejected a bid Tuesday to put a hold on the Trump administration's ban on "bump stock" gun attachments, Reuters reported.

    The ban on the device, which allows a semi-automatic weapon to fire much more rapidly, is set to go into effect Tuesday, but is being challenged in several lower courts.

    The device was believed to have been used in the Las Vegas shooting in October 2017 that left 59 people dead.

    Gun rights activists asking for an injunction on the ban say it could lead toward banning of all civilian gun ownership.

    A Washington-based federal district judge in February upheld the ban, prompting the appeal.

    Gun rights groups also sought an injunction in the Western District of Michigan. A federal district judge last week ruled in favor of the administration, according to Reuters.

    The appeals in the lower courts have not yet been ruled on, according to Reuters.

    The action by Roberts only concerned the Washington case.

    Justice Sonia Sotomayor has yet to act on a similar request based on the Michigan case.

    The rule clarifies the regulatory definition of "machinegun" to include bump stock devices, placing them under the restrictions imposed by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968.

    https://thehill.com/regulation/43580...bump-stock-gun
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    Since the trigger resets between shots, it's not a single function of the trigger. Lets see them squirm around that fact in the "government interest".
    It's easy to squirm around by following the spirit of the law and rejecting your interpretation as too literal.

    I mean, your question is like asking how you get dividing pregnancy up into 3 trimesters, each with different criteria for abortion to be legal, from the 4th Amendment.

  17. #15

    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    John Roberts rejects bid to put hold on Trump administration ban on 'bump stock' gun attachments: report

    03/26/19

    Chief Justice John Roberts rejected a bid Tuesday to put a hold on the Trump administration's ban on "bump stock" gun attachments, Reuters reported.

    The ban on the device, which allows a semi-automatic weapon to fire much more rapidly, is set to go into effect Tuesday, but is being challenged in several lower courts.

    The device was believed to have been used in the Las Vegas shooting in October 2017 that left 59 people dead.

    Gun rights activists asking for an injunction on the ban say it could lead toward banning of all civilian gun ownership.

    A Washington-based federal district judge in February upheld the ban, prompting the appeal.

    Gun rights groups also sought an injunction in the Western District of Michigan. A federal district judge last week ruled in favor of the administration, according to Reuters.

    The appeals in the lower courts have not yet been ruled on, according to Reuters.

    The action by Roberts only concerned the Washington case.

    Justice Sonia Sotomayor has yet to act on a similar request based on the Michigan case.

    The rule clarifies the regulatory definition of "machinegun" to include bump stock devices, placing them under the restrictions imposed by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968.

    https://thehill.com/regulation/43580...bump-stock-gun

    Doesn't sound too promising. The eight year assault on the second amendment is now over.
    Ron Paul 2012

  18. #16

    Thumbs down Trumpkin Hogg Bros

    The Trump Hogg Bros are winning. They're turning America into a third world shytehole.



    President Trump & David Hogg surrounded by armed security goons.

    Trump Hogg Bros, Take The Guns
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only show up to attack Trump when he is wrong
    Make America the Land of the Free & the Home of the Brave again



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    John Roberts rejects bid to put hold on Trump administration ban on 'bump stock' gun attachments: report

    03/26/19

    Chief Justice John Roberts rejected a bid Tuesday to put a hold on the Trump administration's ban on "bump stock" gun attachments, Reuters reported.

    The ban on the device, which allows a semi-automatic weapon to fire much more rapidly, is set to go into effect Tuesday, but is being challenged in several lower courts.

    The device was believed to have been used in the Las Vegas shooting in October 2017 that left 59 people dead.

    Gun rights activists asking for an injunction on the ban say it could lead toward banning of all civilian gun ownership.

    A Washington-based federal district judge in February upheld the ban, prompting the appeal.

    Gun rights groups also sought an injunction in the Western District of Michigan. A federal district judge last week ruled in favor of the administration, according to Reuters.

    The appeals in the lower courts have not yet been ruled on, according to Reuters.

    The action by Roberts only concerned the Washington case.

    Justice Sonia Sotomayor has yet to act on a similar request based on the Michigan case.

    The rule clarifies the regulatory definition of "machinegun" to include bump stock devices, placing them under the restrictions imposed by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968.

    https://thehill.com/regulation/43580...bump-stock-gun
    I think you should change your avatar to AF's for awhile since although he lost the bet on the timing he seems to be winning on the main point.
    I still think the ban will be overturned but Roberts can't be trusted.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I think you should change your avatar to AF's for awhile since although he lost the bet on the timing he seems to be winning on the main point.
    I still think the ban will be overturned but Roberts can't be trusted.
    If in 6 months they are still banned and there is no hope on the shot-term horizon, I'll change it to his for a week (if somebody reminds me), although I don't see how that is much of a punishment.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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