Melania Trump calls for firing of national security aide

[Swordsmyth]

Yes it would have: there would be no photo ops showing the First Daughter smiling in a glittering gown as Israel bombed the $#@! out of Palestine.

No, there would have been no difference, there would have been plenty of pictures of other well dressed people smiling and laughing.

Yeah, based on a fashionista's advice. That's the problem. National security policy shouldn't be advised by a model.

It wasn't national security policy, it was a case of a staffer who couldn't be trusted.

As "trivial" as totally unqualified First Family members serving as advisors on events of national security and international diplomacy?

As trivial has a man listening to his wife about who around the two of them can't be trusted.

[RJ Liberty]

No, there would have been no difference, there would have been plenty of pictures of other well dressed people smiling and laughing.

Not the President's daughter. No million-dollar gowns, as Palestine is bombed.

It wasn't national security policy

...to remove the Deputy National Security Advisor? Please.

[Swordsmyth]

Not the President's daughter. No million-dollar gowns, as Palestine is bombed.

No difference of any significance.

...to remove the Deputy National Security Advisor? Please.

It wasn't national security policy, it was a staffing decision that MAY affect national security policy. (If it affects it at all it is likely to be a good thing considering the fact that she was a Bolton crony)

[RJ Liberty]

No difference of any significance.

The images of Ivanka, in a designer dress, smiling and posing for selfies, as Palestine, one of the poorest places on earth, is blown up were broadcast and printed around the world. You either refuse to understand, or you're incapable of understanding the hatred those images caused, exposing the United States to further blowback.

You claimed, earlier, that Ivanka was qualified to open the embassy because she is "A PERSON", as if any person has the background and emotional intelligence to successfully navigate the waters of the Middle East Israel/Palestine dispute; you don't understand basic diplomacy. You're the exact type of person who believed that someone who didn't know that Africa was a continent, and didn't know what the Fed was (according to Republicans who tried to work with her), was somehow qualified to serve as VP of the United States. Unqualified people can't and shouldn't just get any job because of who they know or who their relatives are, or what political party they're members of.

It wasn't national security policy, it was a staffing decision that MAY affect national security policy.

Fashion models, no matter their relation to the president, should not be advising the POTUS on matters of national security, national security staffing, national security policy, national security spending, national security meetings, national security organization, national security funding, or even national security dinner reservations. But you know this.

[Swordsmyth]

The images of Ivanka, in a designer dress, smiling and posing for selfies, as Palestine, one of the poorest places on earth, is blown up were broadcast and printed around the world. You either refuse to understand, or you're incapable of understanding the hatred those images caused, exposing the United States to further blowback.

You refuse to understand or are incapable of understanding that those pictures were not significantly different than pictures of other well dressed people smiling and laughing that would have had the same effects.

You claimed, earlier, that Ivanka was qualified to open the embassy because she is "A PERSON", as if any person has the background and emotional intelligence to successfully navigate the waters of the Middle East Israel/Palestine dispute; you don't understand basic diplomacy.

No, I said Melania was qualified to give advice on who was trustworthy because she is a person and not just a fashion expert.
You keep confusing Ivanka and Melania throughout this conversation.
I said Ivanka was just a pretty face and had no impact on diplomacy other than being diplomatic at a diplomatic party to open an embassy, it's not like she made the decision to move the embassy.

You're the exact type of person who believed that someone who didn't know that Africa was a continent, and didn't know what the Fed was (according to Republicans who tried to work with her), was somehow qualified to serve as VP of the United States. Unqualified people can't and shouldn't just get any job because of who they know or who their relatives are, or what political party they're members of.

Now you are just making things up.

Fashion models, no matter their relation to the president, should not be advising the POTUS on matters of national security, national security staffing, national security policy, national security spending, national security meetings, national security organization, national security funding, or even national security dinner reservations. But you know this.

You keep reducing her to nothing but a fashion model in spite of my reminder to you that she is a person, she has every right to advise her husband about people she finds to be untrustworthy.

[RJ Liberty]

You refuse to understand or are incapable of understanding that those pictures were not significantly different than pictures of other well dressed people smiling and laughing that would have had the same effects.

You're right that I don't understand that, because it's not true.

No, I said Melania was qualified to give advice on who was trustworthy because she is a person and not just a fashion expert.

Melania didn't just "give advice" on who is trustworthy. She called for the firing of the Deputy National Security Adviser, and used her power as FLOTUS to make it happen. This is not someone who understands or who should be involved in national security decisions, even though, as you say, she is "A PERSON".

You keep confusing Ivanka and Melania throughout this conversation.

No, I know who each one of them is. I'm not even the first person who brought up Ivanka in this thread.

I said Ivanka was just a pretty face and had no impact on diplomacy other than being diplomatic at a diplomatic party to open an embassy, it's not like she made the decision to move the embassy.

She's not just a "pretty face" (though I think she's got a beautiful face), she is an official advisor to the POTUS, but without the background or training needed to do so, on matters outside of fashion and possibly real estate.

Now you are just making things up.

Really? Who did you vote for in 2008?

(Just as an aside, I said you were the type of person who'd vote for Palin for VP, who didn't even know what The Fed was, not that you actually did, although I certainly wouldn't be surprised.)

You keep reducing her to nothing but a fashion model

It's the only job she ever had.

[Swordsmyth]

Melania didn't just "give advice" on who is trustworthy. She called for the firing of the Deputy National Security Adviser, and used her power as FLOTUS to make it happen. This is not someone who understands or who should be involved in national security decisions, even though, as you say, she is "A PERSON".

She doesn't have any power as FLOTUS and she probably does understand things like who is a treacherous backstabber.

Really? Who did you vote for in 2008?

(Just as an aside, I said you were the type of person who'd vote for Palin for VP, who didn't even know what The Fed was, not that you actually did, although I certainly wouldn't be surprised.)

I voted for Ron Paul, I'd kill myself before I'd ever vote for McCain.

It's the only job she ever had.

But it's not all she is.

[RJ Liberty]

She doesn't have any power as FLOTUS

She has a chief of staff, a social secretary, a press secretary, a special assistant, etc. No one who has a press secretary at the White House is without power.

I voted for Ron Paul, I'd kill myself before I'd ever vote for McCain.

And yet, here you are, defending Orange Cheetoh and his inappropriately elevated family; the same guy who disrespected Ron Paul, calling him a "clown-like' candidate, and lying about his poll numbers. We alllll remember this.

But it's not all she is.

It's all she ever did, and it's why she's not qualified to alter the dynamics of our national security team.

I'm sure she did great in Runway Walking 101.

[Swordsmyth]

She has a chief of staff, a social secretary, a press secretary, a special assistant, etc. No one who has a press secretary at the White House is without power.

You are confusing power with influence, she had no power to fire Ricardel.

And yet, here you are, defending Orange Cheetoh and his inappropriately elevated family; the same guy who disrespected Ron Paul, calling him a "clown-like' candidate, and lying about his poll numbers. We alllll remember this.

I defend him when he does good things, firing Ricardel is a good thing.

It's all she ever did, and it's why she's not qualified to alter the dynamics of our national security team.

She is qualified to express an opinion about a backstabbing snake.

[Origanalist]

She has a chief of staff, a social secretary, a press secretary, a special assistant, etc. No one who has a press secretary at the White House is without power.



And yet, here you are, defending Orange Cheetoh and his inappropriately elevated family; the same guy who disrespected Ron Paul, calling him a "clown-like' candidate, and lying about his poll numbers. We alllll remember this.



It's all she ever did, and it's why she's not qualified to alter the dynamics of our national security team.

I'm sure she did great in Runway Walking 101.

Dude, you're arguing with a true believer. You might as as well be trying to convince a devout Catholic the Pope is fallible.

[Swordsmyth]

Dude, you're arguing with a true believer. You might as as well be trying to convince a devout Catholic the Pope is fallible.

I believe Trump does many wrong things, I have even been the first to post many of them, this isn't one of them.

[RJ Liberty]

You are confusing power with influence, she had no power to fire Ricardel.

Influence comes from power. Without her power to call for the firing of Ricardel, amplified by her own office and media people, no one would know she had called for Ricardel's firing. But they did.

I defend him when he does good things, firing Ricardel is a good thing.

How is Melania Trump using the power of her office to get people fired good for the country? Does it make anyone more safe? Does it help the regular folks in Utah or California?

She is qualified to express an opinion about a backstabbing snake.

And not qualified to be using her office to advise the POTUS on matters of national security.

[Origanalist]

I believe Trump does many wrong things, I have even been the first to post many of them, this isn't one of them.

I believe you have (slowly) learned to modify your activity to reduce criticism.

[Swordsmyth]

Influence comes from power. Without her power to call for the firing of Ricardel, amplified by her own office and media people, no one would know she had called for Ricardel's firing. But they did.

You are stretching a point.

How is Melania Trump using the power of her office to get people fired good for the country? Does it make anyone more safe? Does it help the regular folks in Utah or California?

Yes, one less Bolton crony is advising Trump and undermining Bolton's enemies, that could very well save lives foreign and domestic.

And not qualified to be using her office to advise the POTUS on matters of national security.

Which isn't what she did.

That would require her to do something like call for a missile strike on Iran.

[Swordsmyth]

I believe you have (slowly) learned to modify your activity to reduce criticism.

I used to be more critical of Trump before he exceeded my expectations.

[RJ Liberty]

Dude, you're arguing with a true believer. You might as as well be trying to convince a devout Catholic the Pope is fallible.

Nah, I know. SS says he voted for Ron Paul in '08, but it's just so hard to believe. He's defending Trump actions no Constitutionalist would be defending: Trump's family getting involved officially in matters of foreign policy and national defense? It's totally outside what the Constitution calls for, in terms of appointing officials.

[Swordsmyth]

Nah, I know. SS says he voted for Ron Paul in '08, but it's just so hard to believe. He's defending Trump actions no Constitutionalist would be defending: Trump's family getting involved officially in matters of foreign policy and national defense? It's totally outside what the Constitution calls for, in terms of appointing officials.

What Constitution are you reading?
My copy doesn't say anything about appointing family members one way or the other.

[RJ Liberty]

What Constitution are you reading?
My copy doesn't say anything about appointing family members one way or the other.

The 14th Amendment guarantees equality; you don't believe, do you, that Ivanka Trump gain her position as official advisor to the President of the United States through her strong resume of previously working for a little while in real estate, and opening her line of perfumes at select Macy's? Why would she be chosen to open an embassy over someone actually trained in diplomacy? It's because of who her father is, not because of her mad embassy-opening skillz.

[Origanalist]

The 14th Amendment guarantees equality; you don't believe, do you, that Ivanka Trump gain her position as official advisor to the President of the United States through her strong resume of previously working for a little while in real estate, and opening her line of perfumes at select Macy's? Why would she be chosen to open an embassy over someone actually trained in diplomacy? It's because of who her father is, not because of her mad embassy-opening skillz.

Well, her daddy is quite the ribbon cutter, it runs in the family.

[Swordsmyth]

The 14th Amendment guarantees equality; you don't believe, do you, that Ivanka Trump gain her position as official advisor to the President of the United States through her strong resume of previously working for a little while in real estate, and opening her line of perfumes at select Macy's? Why would she be chosen to open an embassy over someone actually trained in diplomacy? It's because of who her father is, not because of her mad embassy-opening skillz.

I see you believe in a "living" constitution.

The 14thA says nothing about appointing family members:

Article XIV (Amendment 14 - Rights Guaranteed: Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process, and Equal Protection)

1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
2: Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,¹⁵ and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State. ^{affects 2}
3: No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
4: The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
5: The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. ^{ratified #14}




WHERE DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT APPOINTING FAMILY MEMBERS OR EVEN ABOUT APPOINTMENTS AT ALL?

[RJ Liberty]

5: The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. ^{ratified #14}


WHERE DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT APPOINTING FAMILY MEMBERS OR EVEN ABOUT APPOINTMENTS AT ALL?

I didn't think you'd actually defend government nepotism, but you actually are. Wow.

Your answer is in #5. "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

Federal law, 5 U.S.C. § 3110, prohibits a federal official from appointing, promoting, or recommending for appointment or promotion any relative of the official to any agency or department over which the official exercises authority or control.

[Swordsmyth]

I didn't think you'd actually defend government nepotism, but you actually are. Wow.

I'm not necessarily defending it, I don't like Ivanka at all but FLOTUS isn't an appointed position and appointing family member ISN'T "unconstitutional" as you claimed.

Your answer is in #5. "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

What provision of the 14thA ("THIS ARTICLE") prohibits appointing family members? NONE

Federal law, 5 U.S.C. § 3110, prohibits a federal official from appointing, promoting, or recommending for appointment or promotion any relative of the official to any agency or department over which the official exercises authority or control.

That isn't the Constitution, if that law applies to the President and not just lower officials then you can claim it is illegal and you should write to the Demoncrats in Congress about it so that we can force Ivanka and her hubby out of the WH.

[RJ Liberty]

I'm not necessarily defending it,

You've just spent hours defending nepotism.

What provision of the 14thA ("THIS ARTICLE") prohibits appointing family members?

The part that says we will be treated equally ("equal protection"). Ivanka Trump's resume doesn't qualify her for the job she has, as you well know. She wouldn't have the position she has without being treated more equally.

[Swordsmyth]

You've just spent hours defending nepotism.

I've just spent hours explaining that it isn't unconstitutional and debating specific issues not defending nepotism in general.

The part that says we will be treated equally ("equal protection"). Ivanka Trump's resume doesn't qualify her for the job she has, as you well know. She wouldn't have the position she has without being treated more equally.

That is utter nonsense, that isn't what equal protection of the law means.
You don't get to make armchair subjective judgements and claim that because you disagree with Trump about an appointee it means the appointment is unconstitutional.

ETA: THIS is the only part that even mentions "equal treatment":

nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

She isn't being allowed to commit crimes without punishment (or if she is it isn't what we are talking about).

[RJ Liberty]

That is utter nonsense, that isn't what equal protection of the law means.
You don't get to make armchair subjective judgements

I didn't. The Supreme Court did.

[Swordsmyth]

I didn't. The Supreme Court did.

Oh?

Where?

Where did they claim that "equal protection of the law" meant what you claim it does?

[RJ Liberty]

Well, her daddy is quite the ribbon cutter, it runs in the family.

If we were just talking ribbon-cutting, Ivanka just serving as a pretty model with scissors, that would be one thing. We all know that's not the case, as the Trumps freely admit.

[Swordsmyth]

I didn't. The Supreme Court did.

I don't believe you, even SCOTUS isn't that out of touch with reality.
Yours is the most bizarre open ended interpretation of "equal treatment under the law" I have ever heard, you could just as easily say that it required socialism to make my life equal to a rich man's.