Please convince me of statism!

[heavenlyboy34]

It has restrained government, it may not have restrained it enough but we are better off because of it.

The natural state of the world is tyranny, the farther away from tyranny you get the harder it is to defeat the gravitational pull back to the natural state, on the other hand you can't take the guilt on yourself for creating and maintaining a system that is too close to tyranny so you must create a limited government to protect the rights of the citizens from enemies foreign and domestic and engage in eternal vigilance to stop or at least slow the decay back to tyranny.

Man doesn't have the capacity to create paradise in this mortal life.

Meh, nice regurgitating Locke, but not really true. Theory has come a long way since the Scots Enlightenment, bro. The natural state of man is to form societies and work together to serve their respective rational self-interest. You really need to read Human Action.

[heavenlyboy34]

You can't.

I did in the post you quoted. It's called asserting the consequent. I give you an F for formal logic toady, comrade.

[timosman]

Meh, nice regurgitating Locke, but not really true. Theory has come a long way since the Scots Enlightenment, bro. The natural state of man is to form societies and work together to serve their respective rational self-interest. You really need to read Human Action.

How do you explain the deep state, Mr. Rational Self-Interest?

[timosman]

I did in the post you quoted. It's called asserting the consequent. I give you an F for formal logic toady, comrade.

What you did was a simple straw man. I will not be revealing my grade.

[Swordsmyth]

Meh, nice regurgitating Locke, but not really true. Theory has come a long way since the Scots Enlightenment, bro. The natural state of man is to form societies and work together to serve their respective rational self-interest. You really need to read Human Action.

Nice try at ignoring the corrupt, it is more efficient to steal than to build and many unscrupulous people understand that, they will organize and prey on everyone else.

If the natural state of man is to "form societies and work together to serve their respective rational self-interest" how did we get where we are?

Did aliens come down and create tyranny?

[heavenlyboy34]

How do you explain the deep state, Mr. Rational Self-Interest?

I'm not in the mood to write this essay for you, so I'll quote Doug Casey.

The Deep State
The concept of the Deep State originated in Turkey, which is appropriate since it’s the heir to the totally corrupt Byzantine and Ottoman empires. And in the best Byzantine manner, the Deep State has insinuated itself throughout the fabric of what once was America. Its tendrils reach from Washington down to every part of civil society. Like a metastasized cancer, it can no longer be easily eradicated.
I used to joke that there was nothing wrong with Washington that 10 megatons on the capital couldn’t cure. But I don’t say that anymore. Partially because it’s too dangerous, but mainly because it’s now untrue. What’s now needed is 10 megatons on the capital and four more bursts in a quadrant 10 miles out.
In many ways, Washington models itself after another city with a Deep State, ancient Rome. Here’s how a Victorian freethinker, Winwood Reade, accurately described it:

Rome lived upon its principal till ruin stared it in the face. Industry is the only true source of wealth, and there was no industry in Rome. By day the Ostia road was crowded with carts and muleteers, carrying to the great city the silks and spices of the East, the marble of Asia Minor, the timber of the Atlas, the grain of Africa and Egypt; and the carts brought out nothing but loads of dung. That was their return cargo.

The Deep State controls the political and economic essence of the U.S. This is much more than observing that there’s no real difference between the left and right wings of the Demopublican Party. It’s well known by anyone with any sense (that is, by everybody except the average voter) that although the Republicans say they believe in economic freedom (but don’t), they definitely don’t believe in social freedom. And the Democrats say they believe in social freedom (but don’t), but they definitely don’t believe in economic freedom.
Who Is Part of the Deep State?
The American Deep State is a real, but informal, structure that has arisen to not just profit from, but control, the State.
The Deep State has a life of its own, like the government itself. It’s composed of top-echelon employees of a dozen Praetorian agencies, like the FBI, CIA, and NSA…top generals, admirals, and other military operatives…long-term congressmen and senators…and directors of important regulatory agencies.
But Deep State is much broader than just the government. It includes the heads of major corporations, all of whom are heavily involved in selling to the State and enabling it. That absolutely includes Silicon Valley, although those guys at least have a sense of humor, evidenced by their “Don’t Be Evil” motto. It also includes all the top people in the Fed, and the heads of all the major banks, brokers, and insurers. Add the presidents and many professors at top universities, which act as Deep State recruiting centers…all the top media figures, of course…and many regulars at things like Bohemian Grove and the Council on Foreign Relations. They epitomize the status quo, held together by power, money, and propaganda.
Altogether, I’ll guess these people number a thousand or so. You might analogize the structure of the Deep State with a huge pack of dogs. The people I’ve just described are the top dogs.
But there are hundreds of thousands more who aren’t at the nexus, but who directly depend on them, have considerable clout, and support the Deep State because it supports them. This includes many of the wealthy, especially those who got that way thanks to their State connections…the 1.5 million people who have top-secret clearances (that’s a shocking, but accurate, number)… plus top players in organized crime, especially the illegal drug business, little of which would exist without the State. Plus mid-level types in the police and military, corporations, and non-governmental organizations.
These are what you might call the running dogs.
Beyond that are the scores and scores of millions who depend on things remaining the way they are. Like the 50%-plus of Americans who are net recipients of benefits from the State…the 60 million on Social Security…the 66 million on Medicaid…the 50 million on food stamps…the many millions on hundreds of other programs… the 23 million government employees and most of their families. In fact, let’s include the many millions of average Joes and Janes who are just getting by.
You might call this level of people, the vast majority of the population, whipped dogs. They both love and fear their master, they’ll do as they’re told, and they’ll roll over on their backs and wet themselves if confronted by a top dog or running dog who feels they’re out of line. These three types of dogs make up the vast majority of the U.S. population. I trust you aren’t among them. I consider myself a Lone Wolf in this context and hope you are, too. Unfortunately, however, dogs are enemies of wolves and tend to hunt them down.
The Deep State is destructive, but it’s great for the people in it. And, like any living organism, its prime directive is: Survive! It survives by indoctrinating the fiction that it’s both good and necessary. However, it’s a parasite that promotes the ridiculous notion that everyone can live at the expense of society.
Is it a conspiracy, headed by a man stroking a white cat? I think not. I find it’s hard enough to get a bunch of friends to agree on what movie to see, much less a bunch of power-hungry miscreants bent on running everyone’s lives. But, on the other hand, the top dogs all know each other, went to the same schools, belong to the same clubs, socialize, and, most important, have common interests, values, and philosophies.
The American Deep State rotates around the Washington Beltway. It imports America’s wealth as tax revenue. A lot of that wealth is consumed thereby useless mouths. And then, it exports things that reinforce the Deep State, including wars, fiat currency, and destructive policies. This is unsustainable simply because nothing of value comes out of the city.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2016/08/...hor/deep-state

[heavenlyboy34]

Nice try at ignoring the corrupt, it is more efficient to steal than to build and many unscrupulous people understand that, they will organize and prey on everyone else.

If the natural state of man is to "form societies and work together to serve their respective rational self-interest" how did we get where we are?

Did aliens come down and create tyranny?

As even RP will tell ya, thugs got hold of the reigns of gov'ment (Hamilton, Lincoln, etc). RP's comrades go into much more detail in their books.

[timosman]

I'm not in the mood to write this essay for you, so I'll quote Doug Casey.

Thanks for the essay but all you have to do is admit you were wrong. We are not that noble.

[Swordsmyth]

As even RP will tell ya, thugs got hold of the reigns of gov'ment (Hamilton, Lincoln, etc). RP's comrades go into much more detail in their books.

And those thugs were what?..........................................MEN
Their kind has existed since Cain and will exist until GOD ends the world and separates the goats from the sheep.
Tyranny is the natural state of man.

[timosman]

Tyranny is the natural state of man.

Despite of all the efforts of the tyrants to convince you it is not.

[Swordsmyth]

Despite of all the efforts of the tyrants to convince you it is not.

And to convince you that they are not tyrants and that you are free.

[timosman]

And to convince you that they are not tyrants and that you are free.

This is where the metaphor "Elephant in the room" comes from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_in_the_room

[Origanalist]

And those thugs were what?..........................................MEN
Their kind has existed since Cain and will exist until GOD ends the world and separates the goats from the sheep.
Tyranny is the natural state of man.

Just because tyranny exists doesn't mean it's the natural state of man.

[Swordsmyth]

Just because tyranny exists doesn't mean it's the natural state of man.

If it is what happens when nobody stops it then it is the natural state.
Because of the existence of corrupt men tyranny is the natural state of man.

[timosman]

Just because tyranny exists doesn't mean it's the natural state of man.

Semantics.

[Origanalist]

If it is what happens when nobody stops it then it is the natural state.
Because of the existence of corrupt men tyranny is the natural state of man.

That same logic can be applied to anything, thus rendering it meaningless.

[Origanalist]

Semantics.

Idiotic response.

[Swordsmyth]

That same logic can be applied to anything, thus rendering it meaningless.

Not really, tyranny abounds and has powerful incentives that appeal to the human psyche, liberty is rare and requires people to overcome their base inclinations.

Tyranny is the natural state of the world and it requires deliberate action to defend against.

[Origanalist]

Not really, tyranny abounds and has powerful incentives that appeal to the human psyche, liberty is rare and requires people to overcome their base inclinations.

Tyranny is the natural state of the world and it requires deliberate action to defend against.

I don't see it that way at all. In fact I manage to live my life almost entirely free of tyranny. Granted it requires avoiding government and all it's agents studiously, which is where most tyranny emanates from. However in my dealings with those outside of government I don't find tyranny to be the natural state at all.

and it requires deliberate action to defend against

^^ This I will agree with.

[timosman]

Idiotic response.

Your argument is the natural state, as observed throughout our history is irrelevant and not natural. Not idiotic at all.

[timosman]

I don't see it that way at all. In fact I manage to live my life almost entirely free of tyranny. Granted it requires avoiding government and all it's agents studiously, which is where most tyranny emanates from. However in my dealings with those outside of government I don't find tyranny to be the natural state at all.

Which bridge do you live under?

[timosman]

That same logic can be applied to anything, thus rendering it meaningless.

Really?

[Origanalist]

Really?

Yes, really.

[timosman]

Yes, really.

I bow to your intellectual power.

[Origanalist]

Which bridge do you live under?

What rodent infested room do you sit in 24 hrs. a day in front of your computer screen? I live in a house and do actual work so my time in front of a computer is limited, unlike yourself.

[timosman]

What rodent infested room do you sit in 24 hrs. a day in front of your computer screen? I live in a house and do actual work so my time in front of a computer is limited, unlike yourself.

Nobody said life was supposed to be fair. Apologies if this bothers you.

[Swordsmyth]

I don't see it that way at all. In fact I manage to live my life almost entirely free of tyranny. Granted it requires avoiding government and all it's agents studiously, which is where most tyranny emanates from. However in my dealings with those outside of government I don't find tyranny to be the natural state at all.

You are an exception most people don't have the opportunity to live as you do, not only all of the present world but all of history shows tyranny to be the norm.

[timosman]

You are an exception most people don't have the opportunity to live as you do, not only all of the present world but all of history shows tyranny to be the norm.

Communism seems like a path forward.

[Origanalist]

You are an exception most people don't have the opportunity to live as you do, not only all of the present world but all of history shows tyranny to be the norm.

Opportunities are created, most people simply haven't been taught they CAN live like me. And they never will as long as they're taught all their life that they can't. Remember that whole liberty message thing?

[Swordsmyth]

Opportunities are created, most people simply haven't been taught they CAN live like me. And they never will as long as they're taught all their life that they can't. Remember that whole liberty message thing?

Opportunities are created some but they are also determined by outside forces to a great degree, most people don't have the opportunity to create the opportunity to live like you and if more of those that could did the forces of tyranny would activate to crush enough of you to drive most of them back into the system.