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Thread: We Need the Police Because...

  1. #31
    Default ,, We Need the Police Because...


    My default, Police should not exist in a free society.
    Police are an authoritarian concept,, that is wholly incomparable with liberty.

    Both government and polite society thrived in this land before the concept of "Police" was imported.

    Police are not needed,, they are a hindrance.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    What is that between the gun and "ISIS" ?

    looks like a canteen with a duck's head sticking out of it lol
    Heh.

    I think it's an old-timey coffee pot. The kind our grandparents used to use, hearkening back to old times, when the police spent their days drinking coffee at the local donut shop, rather than shooting up clubs in combat gear.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    A pressure cooker.
    +rep

  6. #34

    We Need the Police Because...

    ...I can't spend all day patrolling my property, defending it from would-be civil dissidents, when I need to provide for the needs of my loved ones and myself.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    ...I can't spend all day patrolling my property, defending it from would-be civil dissidents, when I need to provide for the needs of my loved ones and myself.
    We are quickly reaching the point where your home is more likely to be broken into by a SWAT team that can't read the address on their warrant than a burglar.

    Maybe we do need police, maybe, if we don't have good neighbors. But we don't need this police state. We don't need governments so jealous of their power that they don't allow us to defend ourselves, our property and our loved ones when they aren't around. We don't need to be forced to pay people to do more harm than good. And we sure don't need DHS taking our tax dollars and only giving them back to our communities if our local governments pass ridiculous laws and our police departments militarize themselves.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 06-17-2016 at 08:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    ...I can't spend all day patrolling my property, defending it from would-be civil dissidents, when I need to provide for the needs of my loved ones and myself.
    Hire private security.

    If you are unable to trust God for your security.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    ...I can't spend all day patrolling my property, defending it from would-be civil dissidents, when I need to provide for the needs of my loved ones and myself.
    The police patrol your property all day?

  10. #38

    Rebuttals

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    We are quickly reaching the point where your home is more likely to be broken into by a SWAT team that can't read the address on their warrant than a burglar.

    Maybe we do need police, maybe, if we don't have good neighbors. But we don't need this police state. We don't need governments so jealous of their power that they don't allow us to defend ourselves, our property and our loved ones when they aren't around. We don't need to be forced to pay people to do more harm than good. And we sure don't need DHS taking our tax dollars and only giving them back to our communities if our local governments pass ridiculous laws and our police departments militarize themselves.
    Yes, I agree that our current law enforcement system is in shambles, and I also agree that we do not need to become a police state, especially because our law enforcement has done things like broken into incorrect homes. My point is that I support having police, in principle, because we can't spend all of 24 hours of a day on guard against perpetrators to our families and our homes. That brings me to pcosmar's point:

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Hire private security.

    If you are unable to trust God for your security.
    Yes, it's an option to hire private security, if we didn't have all of the complicated tax structures from our local and county governments. But if citizens within a local or county municipality agreed to pay (when I say "pay" I actually mean "voluntary payment," as for a service, not automatic deduction of wages from a government authority) for law enforcement to protect their loved ones and property, then that, in effect, is like having private security.

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    The police patrol your property all day?
    With having a local or county law enforcement system, patrol systems can be discussed, analyzed, and then adopted to ensure the best routes for patrolling within local communities. Yes, I know that police today do not patrol someone's property all day, but that wasn't the point of my original quote, either.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Yes, it's an option to hire private security, if we didn't have all of the complicated tax structures from our local and county governments. But if citizens within a local or county municipality agreed to pay (when I say "pay" I actually mean "voluntary payment," as for a service, not automatic deduction of wages from a government authority) for law enforcement to protect their loved ones and property, then that, in effect, is like having private security.
    i would be fine with that,, provided your private security did not interfere with my travel, business, or person in any way.

    Are you afraid of anything enough to pay men for protection? Really?

    and a Theocrat? you must have a weak god.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #40

    Fear is Not the Issue

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    i would be fine with that,, provided your private security did not interfere with my travel, business, or person in any way.

    Are you afraid of anything enough to pay men for protection? Really?

    and a Theocrat? you must have a weak god.
    Well, that's an interesting line of reasoning. Do you own a gun, pcosmar? If you do, then let me ask you, "Are you afraid of anything enough to pay men for protection? Really?"

    And, no, God is not weak, but He's also sovereign enough to use ordinary means (like weapons) as instruments for deterring evil, provided that we keep our faith in Him and not the object, itself. That's what God reminds us to do in Scriptures like:

    Some trust in chariots, and some in horses, but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. [Psalm 20:7]
    Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help and stay on horses and trust in chariots because they are many, and in horsemen because they are very strong, but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD! [Isaiah 31:1]
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Well, that's an interesting line of reasoning. Do you own a gun, pcosmar? If you do, then let me ask you, "Are you afraid of anything enough to pay men for protection? Really?"
    I do not own a gun.

    I am a Prohibited Person. I am something that should not exist in a free society.. and yet i am.

    care to discuss that further,,? with someone that understands the nature of authority.

    I do not serve the Prince of this World.. therefor I reject that authority over me.. Would you care to discuss that proposition?

    I know what is unseen around me and do not fear death,, No I don't own a gun.
    And though I appreciate the aid of other men, I neither need nor require it.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 06-17-2016 at 11:35 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  15. #42

    Protect Yourself Before You Wreck Yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I do not own a gun.

    I am a Prohibited Person. I am something that should not exist in a free society.. and yet i am.

    care to discuss that further,,? with someone that understands the nature of authority.

    I do not serve the Prince of this World.. therefor I reject that authority over me.. Would you care to discuss that proposition?

    I know what is unseen around me and do not fear death,, No I don't own a gun.
    And though I appreciate the aid of other men, I neither need nor require it.
    Okay. It's fine that you don't own a gun, but don't think that because I believe in paying for protection through certain means (like owning a gun or having police) that it means my God is weak or that I'm afraid of anything. Because we live in a sinful world, we have to arm ourselves for protection against people who have no moral nor civil restraints on their own behavior. So, it's wise to have those means of protection.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Okay. It's fine that you don't own a gun, but don't think that because I believe in paying for protection through certain means (like owning a gun or having police) that it means my God is weak or that I'm afraid of anything. Because we live in a sinful world, we have to arm ourselves for protection against people who have no moral nor civil restraints on their own behavior. So, it's wise to have those means of protection.
    I am not opposed to such. (self defense, defense of others),and scripture supports such done of good intent. (God looks on the heart).

    I am opposed to armed enforcers of someone else's will. And That is by definition what Police are.

    They are enforcers of control.
    in this world,, the authority is the prince of this world.

    I await an end to it.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #44
    Why do I need to be protected?


    who would I fear? why would i fear?

    Is fear a spiritual Being? is the spirit of fear something I should fear?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  18. #45
    Protect Yourself Before You Wreck Yourself

    LOL,,

    you haven't been keeping up.



    I know where i am. and who put me here.

    Then Elisha prayed and said, "O LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 06-18-2016 at 12:06 AM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post

    I know where i am. and who put me here.
    now tell me @Theocrat , Why do I need Police?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  20. #47

    All Police are "Of Someone Else's Will"

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I am not opposed to such. (self defense, defense of others),and scripture supports such done of good intent. (God looks on the heart).

    I am opposed to armed enforcers of someone else's will. And That is by definition what Police are.

    They are enforcers of control.
    in this world,, the authority is the prince of this world.

    I await an end to it.
    Pcosmar, you're just stating the obvious when you say, "I am opposed to armed enforcers of someone else's will. And That is by definition what Police are." Of course, any law enforcement agency (whether it's private or public) enforces laws that did not originate from inside itself. Therefore, one important issue is whether those laws (or the people who produced them, perhaps), are just, right, proper, etc. or not. Another important issue is whether the law enforcement agency, itself, is enforcing laws in a righteous manner or not (which begs the question, "By what authority," of course).

    So, you can't say that policing, as an institution (or means of protection and preservation), is evil in and of itself. That's committing the fallacy of reification. But, also important is to realize that policing is an inevitability. We all do it, in some area of our lives. It can be through (though not limited to) parenting or conscientious moral restraint.

    But I agree that in civics, we should focus on how policing is taking place, as well as why policing is taking place.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Pcosmar, you're just stating the obvious when you say, "I am opposed to armed enforcers of someone else's will. And That is by definition what Police are." Of course, any law enforcement agency (whether it's private or public) enforces laws that did not originate from inside itself. Therefore, one important issue is whether those laws (or the people who produced them, perhaps), are just, right, proper, etc. or not. Another important issue is whether the law enforcement agency, itself, is enforcing laws in a righteous manner or not (which begs the question, "By what authority," of course).

    So, you can't say that policing, as an institution (or means of protection and preservation), is evil in and of itself. That's committing the fallacy of reification. But, also important is to realize that policing is an inevitability. We all do it, in some area of our lives. It can be through (though not limited to) parenting or conscientious moral restraint.

    But I agree that in civics, we should focus on how policing is taking place, as well as why policing is taking place.
    Controlling people is evil.

    what do you mean I can't say it.

    Government is evil. It is controlled by satan. it is totally evil from inception. The founders knew this.
    They also understood that government was reality. a necessity. but that it must be limited.
    They placed limits on government (not enough apparently)

    There were NO Police.

    That was not a concept present at the time. it was imported from Europe along with democracy and socialism. It was a remnant of aristocracy and authoritarianism..

    The idea that people NEED to be controlled,,and that some people are worthy of doing so.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 06-18-2016 at 12:24 AM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  23. #49

    Some Control is Necessary

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Controlling people is evil.

    what do you mean I can't say it.

    Government is evil. It is controlled by satan. it is totally evil from inception. The founders knew this.
    They also understood that government was reality. a necessity. but that it must be limited.
    They placed limits on government (not enough apparently)

    There were NO Police.

    That was not a concept present at the time. it was imported from Europe along with democracy and socialism. It was a remnant of aristocracy and authoritarianism..

    The idea that people NEED to be controlled,,and that some people are worthy of doing so.
    Lest I be misunderstood, let me say that I don't agree that police have the authority to control people, when those people are acting righteously in society. The role of law enforcement is to control the behavior of those who choose to live in society without moral and civil restraints towards other people.

    When the police begins to treat civilly innocent people the same as civilly guilty people by controlling their behavior though invasion of property or by inadvertent loss of life, then I would say that the police agents are acting unjustly and need to be held accountable. But that doesn't mean that the institution of police, itself, is evil.

    "Government is evil," "It's controlled by Satan," blah, blah, blah, the same talking points that have been proven false over and over again, I'm not even going to have an argument about. It's not germane to the topic at hand, anyway.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post

    "Government is evil," "It's controlled by Satan," blah, blah, blah,
    The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

    Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.

    Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now, My kingdom is not of this realm.” “Then You are a king?” Pilate said. “You say that I am a king,” Jesus answered. “For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice.”…
    yeah ,, bla bla

    let him who has ears
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #51
    And to keep it out of another sub forum,, and on subject.

    http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

    Still good after all these years.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    He's also sovereign enough to use ordinary means (like weapons) as instruments for deterring evil, provided that we keep our faith in Him and not the object, itself. That's what God reminds us to do in Scriptures like:

    Some trust in chariots, and some in horses, but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. [Psalm 20:7]
    I don't think that means what you think it does. The part I boldened there, I mean. That's just me talking, though, Theo.

    Here is what I would do. If it were me. Which it isn't. But if it were, I'd read that scripture and compare it to what you led into it with (again, what I boldened there). Think about it, man. I mean reaaaaaally think about what you say here in context with the actual scripture.

    It seems to me that "some" and "we" are mutually exclusive to one another in the context of the scripture itself. And for good reason.

    If I recall right, God wouldn't even let Israel have horses. Or am I wrong about that? Am I wrong, Theo?

    Let's review. Maybe I'm wrong.

    "But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way" (Deut. 17:16).

    "When thou goest out to battle against thine enemies, and seest horses, and chariots, and a people more than thou, be not afraid of them: for the Lord thy God is with thee, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. ... For the Lord your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you" (Deut. 20:1, 4).
    So, then, it seems to me that God is saying to have faith in Him alone. I mean, sht, Theo, He specifically took their danged horses and weapons away. Right? Or naw? Did he let em have their horses and whatnot and maybe I missed that part? You just got done quoting that..."Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the Lord our God. (Ps. 20:7-8)...which actually continues...although, you stopped prior to..."They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright."

    But God forbid the Israelites from having horses. God wanted Israel to trust in Him, not horses and chariots.

    So, yeah. I think that your thought leading into the scripture that you referenced actually contradicts the scripture itself, Theo. It seems to me that if people put their faith in their chariots, then, they are effectively placing their faith in man. In man's enginuity. Not God.

    Some trust in chariots” (Ps. 20:7). Right?

    Ultimately, and with all of that said, the discussion (per the topic specifically and particularly the context of your question to pcosmar about if he has a gun or not when you were making a case for moral judgment to be made by the police/government) should move in the direction of just who is the moral authority. Is it Man-over-God or God-over-Man? The way you led into that scripture that you referenced would tend to stimulate a Man-over-God scenario. God doesn't use worldly weapons. Man does. Man builds them. And man is confident in his weapons. Now, God did breath life into the horse. I'll grant you that. But God didn't saddle the feller up and hop on it with a sword and a flag or whatever. Man did that. These are specifically made mutually exclusive in the scripture you posted to support your claim.


    If I'm wrong, then, please educate me. I like to learn. It's one of my favorite things to do. But...when you mention that...

    He's also sovereign enough to use ordinary means (like weapons) as instruments for deterring evil, provided that we keep our faith in Him and not the object, itself
    it doesn't make sense with the specific scripture you posted in order to support your claim since God told them that they couldn't have any horses at all. Nope. No weapons. Only faith in God alone. So, it seems like you'vr produced a logical fallacy to me.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-18-2016 at 06:43 AM.

  27. #53

    Have You Not Read?

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    I don't think that means what you think it does. The part I boldened there, I mean. That's just me talking, though, Theo.

    Here is what I would do. If it were me. Which it isn't. But if it were, I'd read that scripture and compare it to what you led into it with (again, what I boldened there). Think about it, man. I mean reaaaaaally think about what you say here in context with the actual scripture.

    It seems to me that "some" and "we" are mutually exclusive to one another in the context of the scripture itself. And for good reason.

    If I recall right, God wouldn't even let Israel have horses. Or am I wrong about that? Am I wrong, Theo?

    Let's review. Maybe I'm wrong.

    "But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way" (Deut. 17:16).



    So, then, it seems to me that God is saying to have faith in Him alone. I mean, sht, Theo, He specifically took their danged horses and weapons away. Right? Or naw? Did he let em have their horses and whatnot and maybe I missed that part? You just got done quoting that..."Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the Lord our God. (Ps. 20:7-8)...which actually continues...although, you stopped prior to..."They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright."

    But God forbid the Israelites from having horses. God wanted Israel to trust in Him, not horses and chariots.

    So, yeah. I think that your thought leading into the scripture that you referenced actually contradicts the scripture itself, Theo. It seems to me that if people put their faith in their chariots, then, they are effectively placing their faith in man. In man's enginuity. Not God.

    Some trust in chariots” (Ps. 20:7). Right?

    Ultimately, and with all of that said, the discussion (per the topic specifically and particularly the context of your question to pcosmar about if he has a gun or not when you were making a case for moral judgment to be made by the police/government) should move in the direction of just who is the moral authority. Is it Man-over-God or God-over-Man? The way you led into that scripture that you referenced would tend to stimulate a Man-over-God scenario. God doesn't use worldly weapons. Man does. Man builds them. And man is confident in his weapons. Now, God did breath life into the horse. I'll grant you that. But God didn't saddle the feller up and hop on it with a sword and a flag or whatever. Man did that. These are specifically made mutually exclusive in the scripture you posted to support your claim.


    If I'm wrong, then, please educate me. I like to learn. It's one of my favorite things to do, man. Thanks!
    Where did I say that because we should have weapons and police that, therefore, we should have faith in man rather than faith in God?

    Also, I hope you're not trying to argue that the Bible teaches against having armies and defense because, if you are, I would invite you to reread the books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Joshua (for starters) to see that God clearly commanded His people to build armies so that His purpose in giving them the "Promised Land" would be fulfilled. That was my point. God uses ordinary means to accomplish His goals in this world (in this case, the need for enforcement of law and personal protection), and that characteristic simply reflects the transcendent and imminent nature of God towards His creation.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    But I agree that in civics, we should focus on how policing is taking place, as well as why policing is taking place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    "Government is evil," "It's controlled by Satan," blah, blah, blah, the same talking points that have been proven false over and over again, I'm not even going to have an argument about. It's not germane to the topic at hand, anyway.
    Well, you two almost made it back on topic, but then you veered away again.

    I asked the question I did in the thread title, because I was wondering just who it was that decided we need police to disarm us, completely fail to disarm or stop the bad guys, leave us at the mercy of the bad guys for three hours, and then come in throwing lead and killing or wounding all the innocent bystanders that the bad guy had not yet managed to get around to. And I think you both know this.

    Just thought I'd clarify that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Where did I say that because we should have weapons and police that, therefore, we should have faith in man rather than faith in God?
    You said that God acts through men. Pete pointed out that the devil does, too.

    If you arm a man, you are demonstrating faith in him. If you arm him and disarm yourself, you are demonstrating total faith in him. Or in God to act through him, which to a free will believer like myself, is the same thing.

    The more the federal government takes our money and doles it back out to our local agencies for jumping through their hoops, the worse things get and the less our communities can do to fix their own departments.

    There's nothing Godly about this federal government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post

    There's nothing Godly about this federal government.
    Truth.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  30. #56

    Saying My Piece So I Can Keep My Piece

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Well, you two almost made it back on topic, but then you veered away again.

    I asked the question I did in the thread title, because I was wondering just who it was that decided we need police to disarm us, completely fail to disarm or stop the bad guys, leave us at the mercy of the bad guys for three hours, and then come in throwing lead and killing or wounding all the innocent bystanders that the bad guy had not yet managed to get around to. And I think you both know this.

    Just thought I'd clarify that.
    Well, I don't agree that any law enforcement agency has the right to disarm law-abiding citizens for any reason. We have a God-given right to self-defense and security. That means that no person can take that right away when people are living righteously in society. Our dependency should be in the God Who graciously gives us our rights, not in the people who believe that our security is exclusively their responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You said that God acts through men. Pete pointed out that the devil does, too.

    If you arm a man, you are demonstrating faith in him. If you arm him and disarm yourself, you are demonstrating total faith in him. Or in God to act through him, which to a free will believer like myself, is the same thing.

    The more the federal government takes our money and doles it back out to our local agencies for jumping through their hoops, the worse things get and the less our communities can do to fix their own departments.

    There's nothing Godly about this federal government.
    Once again, I don't agree that police should be solely armed at the expense of disarming citizens. That is a recipe for tyranny. Nowhere in the Bible does God ever call for kings and civil magistrates to have possession of all weapons while their citizens have none. In fact, Jesus even allowed His disciples to carry swords in Luke 22:35-38.

    We also have to be careful about arguing for normative cases from the positive cases. In other words, just because our current law enforcement has performed duties to the detriment of individuals and communities does not mean that we should never have law enforcement agencies. Such reasoning then opens the door for other proposals, as well. For instance, someone could argue that rape laws have not stopped people from raping others; therefore, we should get rid of laws against rape because they don't keep all women safe. But such reasoning really misses the point of having rape laws, in the first place.

    That same reasoning applies to those wanting to eradicate all law enforcement because of the actions of law enforcement agents who have abused their authority. No, I don't think that law enforcers have the right to do whatever they want just because they wear a badge. Yes, I do believe that citizens ought to be armed just as well as our current law enforcement agencies and military. But having a police system does not cancel out having the right to protect oneself by any means necessary, nor does advocating for the existence of police mean that the person has more faith in men than in God. You all need to realize that because, quite frankly, your arguments are absurd.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Can we do the sane thing yet?
    Um... No.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  33. #58
    I wonder how Theocrat will feel about Police when they start arresting Christians? again
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    This guy was investigated by the FBI twice, yet still, through Wackenhut, had a license to carry. Which means even if we had full-on gun control before this happened, HE WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN ARMED!
    BUT... BUT... DAMN YOU!

    Gay dolphins... gay dolphins... gay... dolphins...

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    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  35. #60

    This is How I Feel

    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I wonder how Theocrat will feel about Police when they start arresting Christians? again
    Unlike yourself, I am able to make the distinction between an institution and those who are members of the institution. Therefore, if Christians are arrested for their beliefs, let's say, then that would be a reason to appeal to other venues (like social/mainstream media, government representatives, churches, etc.) for exposing and condemning the actions of the arresting officers, in hopes that the officers will be held accountable and the law(s) in which they are enforcing may be repealed. But it would not be a sufficient reason to call for eliminating all police.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

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