Real world facts of firearms.....let's pool

[Intoxiklown]

Over the past few years, I've seen some things said here that I agree with, some tings that set off a light bulb in my head, and some things that made me understand false net info and herd mentality. I always try to point out if my understanding and knowledge of something is weak on some subjects, and some times make it clear I know exactly what I am talking about. Hence, this post.

I want to talk about what I know a fact, and some things I understand as fact. I am then hoping others will expand on some things, explain why some are wrong, or even if I ( or others) are right for the wrong reasons. This stems from my wife (she likes to log my account and just read ) making an observation that never occurred to me. To paraphrase, "With all the different branches of military, hunters, and long time shooters on your forums, you all are sure all over the map about firearms.". Basically, experience molds opinion, yet opinion seems to really dominate here.

Also, I am home alone, buzzing on Community coffee, and feel chatty...even if it's with myself.....=)


Let's start with a huge misconception I have seen:

AK(M)47s

This is a hugely misunderstood rifle. I am not an "AK fanboy", but I do own one. I also own ARs, both in .223 and .308, direct impengement and piston. No rifle is better than the other, but they all separate themselves in different needs.

1) "The AK is not accurate". Horse $#@!. I can hit targets at 300 yards with my AK. The accuracy myth is two fold. First being the obvious, knowledge of the weapon. Second being, and most importantly, LACK of knowledge regarding how heat affects a rifle barrel. I can take an AK, and a 30 round mag, and light a 300 yard target up. After that, due to the way the barrel flexes (as designed) along with the heat generated to the barrel, there is drift. All rifles do this, but the AK design suffers the worst effects.

which leads to #2

2) "AKs pale to other rifles in a firefight". Define firefight. If we are in an open area, and you have an AR15, and me an AK.....I am going to do my best to suppress and fall back. I am not going to have that fight if I can help it. Long range fighting an AR with an AK is both foolish, and most likely not going to end well. However, those same rifles in heavily wooded areas, and the advantages change. The smaller .223 allows greater long range accuracy, but woods / jungle vegetation takes that advantage away. Both to greater options for cover from the .223, as well as the tumble design of the round giving issue when encountering someting as simple as a tree twig in the flight path of the round. The heavier 7.62x39 does not have these issues. In other words, your location has a lot to do with solving the "AR vs AK" debate in your choice of these two fine weapons.

I would go into field reliability, but if this is an argument for someone, they need to consider they are being an "AR fanboy" because that is what they own. Personally, I prefer the AR platform, but I also fully acknowledge that fighting in adverse condittions, or prolonged encounters, the AK stands above the rest.


Pistols:

Excluding "man rounds" like the .44 and up, people really should read and understand kinetic energy when looking at pistol calibers. A slower large caliber, like the .45 ACP, is going to dissipate a lot of it's energy on contact. Meaning, clothes and skin. These types of rounds also perform more poorly (hate to say poorly, but for lack of a better word) when encountering body armor. The more energy you can get transferred inside the target, the larger the temporal cavity. Now, while I am in no way dismissing a large permanent cavity, many people underestimate what kind of damage to organs the temporal cavity imparts. That force can lead to organs rupturing from pressure, and the shock itself can even cause a heart attack (I love that, get shot in the ribcage, and die of a heart attack).

This is why out of all the pistols I own, in all their various calibers, I carry and prefer the .357 magnum. Ballistically, it gives a solid sized round at a very high velocity. Data shows there have been more one shot kills with the .357 than any other round, with .40 being a fairly close second. The issue with a weapon like the .40 cal is shared by it's cousins, the .357 sig and the 10mm. All three are hard hitting rounds, and are moving their butt off when leaving the barrel....BUT. They achieve this by being high compression rounds. And while that works, and they will definitely "turn that light switch off", they have two failings. Actually, not failings, but unique issues due to their load outs. First, being high compression rounds designed for semi-automatic pistols, you get what I call "snappy shots", meaning muzzle climb. I am not saying it's horrible, or something that can't be worked with, but compared to other calibers in semi-auto, there is an obvious difference. Second being, and why I personally don't own any, is that high compression rounds cause much greater wear and tear on these firearms. You will not find a pistol in these calibers with 50k+ rounds through them, that haven't had to be re-tooled and/or machine repaired. I'm not knocking the effectiveness of these rounds, but they do exact a price. This is why I encourage people wanting higher capacity pistols to look into 9mm, as round and powder advances have made it an extremely effective round, without the long term damage to the pistol itself.


A couple of side notes on aforementioned body armor:

1) Yes, it can be really nice to have if someone is shooting at you. But it can also be your worst enemy. If you're decked out like Iron Man, while bullets may lesser of an enemy, dehydration and exhaustion can and will drop you just as fast. Anyone who has done 18 to 20 mile movement can tell you, it doesn't take very long before the smallest thing on you becomes something you desperately want to drop.

Also, body armor doesn't give you "god mode". Broken ribs, bruised sternum, and other blunt force trauma injuries are a lot more common than you might think. Less talked about is bullet fragment deflection, which is when a round is stopped by armor, and fragments from the round take a little bounce. Sometimes into a chin, or a hand, ect. The round doesn't have to penetrate you to stop your ability to fight. Ask anyone whose just suffered a hair line crack on a rib, much less a break, how good they'd be in a fight suffering from those.

2) If you did encounter, and had to fight, an opponent wearing body armor, your aim point is the groin area. This is the area of best probable success. Femoral artery, testicles, colon, sheer musculature volume.....a hit in these areas can cause massive trauma, and incapacitate. You'll also force one to two of their numbers to deal with, and extract him.




Just a few thoughts. And, again, I'm not really attacking a weapon or caliber. But, it's good to get past misconceptions, and understand the intended application, as well as drawbacks, to things.

[phill4paul]

Works for me. I don't see anything wrong with your analysis.

[Ronin Truth]

Most gunfights happen within a circle with less than a 7 yard radius. Sounds like 12 gauge shotgun range to me.

[phill4paul]

Most gunfights happen within a circle with less than a 7 yard radius. Sounds like 12 gauge shotgun range to me.

Kinda hard to conceal carry a shotgun, no?

[Ronin Truth]

Kinda hard to conceal carry a shotgun, no?

Don't come to my house unexpectedly at night and then surprise me.

[Pericles]

Kinda hard to conceal carry a shotgun, no?

Agree and will add this - quality matters no matter what model weapon. A quality built AK can get hits at 300meters and a quality AR is absolutely reliable. There is no perfect weapon because the situation influences outcomes.

[pcosmar]

It is hard to shoot a target that can not be seen.

the rest is forbidden to me.. so I favor what I have.

Be invisible.

[phill4paul]

It is hard to shoot a target that can not be seen.

the rest is forbidden to me.. so I favor what I have.

Be invisible.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...l-Evasion-Suit

[Intoxiklown]

Agree and will add this - quality matters no matter what model weapon. A quality built AK can get hits at 300meters and a quality AR is absolutely reliable. There is no perfect weapon because the situation influences outcomes.

Very true, and I probably should have made that clear, especially regarding my AKM. My father bought it in '88, so it is pre-ban. The only real value it had was the fact it was my daddy's gun for years, until a knowledgeable dealer saw it, and explained what my father had left me. It is a Polytech AKM with folding stock. It is Chinese made, which is why I never thought much of it outside of sentimental value. However, it turns out it is considered among AK enthusiasts as the Rolls Royce of the AKs.

So yeah.....what 98% of owners of that firearm consider it a safe queen, and don't want to even take it outside, I spent two decades running around the country with it, and put Lord knows how many rounds through it. But, even with the wear, that AK was valued at $3k, which was eye opening. It's the only AK I've ever shot, and might explain why I could not understand all the accuracy issues I saw people citing. Because while the sights leave something to be desired, it is a hard hitting mamba jamma, and maintains tight groups for the first 40 to 50 rounds. But even then, it's solid on target....that group just opens up some.

[Ronin Truth]

12 gauge shotgun handgun

About 857,000 results

https://www.google.com/search?q=12+g...22.6dbP_BtnJpk

[fedupinmo]

Most gunfights happen within a circle with less than a 7 yard radius. Sounds like 12 gauge shotgun range to me.

Although I'm by no means an expert on this, it would seem that at short range a handgun would make more sense. One of the biggest advantages of a handgun is single-handed operation, allowing the use of the other hand to put an attacker away if necessary.
I discovered this video sometime back that seems to make a lot of sense, and applies well to the subject.
https://youtu.be/BVuKy8SnbSQ

[Intoxiklown]

Most gunfights happen within a circle with less than a 7 yard radius. Sounds like 12 gauge shotgun range to me.

I was hoping more people would get involved, but seems most like to read (which there is nothing wrong with either).


For home defense, you simply cannot beat the shotgun. But even this devastating firearm has a lot of myths floating around it.

1) "You can't miss with the shotgun". People that say this have never shot a shotgun in their lives. At around 15 feet (which is the average room width in American houses), 00 buckshot is going to have a spread pattern of around 3" to 4". While that is a great deal more impact area than from a pistol round, it doesn't take too much of a jerk to pull that shot off target. This is also why all home defense shotguns should have a stock, and not just a pistol grip. True one can put a laser on a pistol grip only shotgun, or even mount a light and use the center of the light as an aim point, but there is still a strong possibility of missing. Shouldering that weapon and using a good sight picture combined with a 4" spread will all but guarantee a hit though.

2) "I like to use birdshot for home defense". This will work to deter, but will not kill. Birdshot gives a wider pattern, and more pellets....but, gives up kinetic energy which takes away penetration. If your goal is to make an intruder either leave your house, or hope to incapacitate without risk of death, then birdshot is great. But shooting an opponent across the room with birdshot will scare him, but he can also be armed himself, and it is impossible to know his mental or physical state. In other words, if he is on a drug like methamphetamine, he won't feel as much pain as he should, and since the birdshot will not deliver a killing wound, you are now in a gun fight with someone using a round that will not kill. And yes, you can get lucky and hit the eyes, or some other lucky shot. But your life and that of our famliy is a hell o a thing to gamble with.

3) "I like tactical shotgun stocks". I'm not completely knocking these, as I have a couple of shotguns built this way as well. However, my actual home defense shotgun still has the wooden stock on it. By removing the wood stock, you're taking a melee weapon away from yourself. If you smack someone with a wood stock attached to a shotgun, you'll split their head wide open. A polymer tactical stock is going to break.


As I said, I am a firm believer in the scatter gun. I have one on each side of the bed (for both my wife and I), as well as one in my truck along with a .30-.30 rifle in an overhead gun rack in my truck. It is my preferred hunting weapon, as it can kill anything that walks, crawls, or flies in the US. I don't carry a "shotgun handgun" for personal defense though, as there is simply too much compromise of the round's capability to get it into such a small package.

Different gauges is a whole other topic, but I'll give a brief look. .12 gauge is popular, and considered the best all around gauge. But that does not mean it's the best for everything. For example, for bird hunting, the .16 gauge is better due to round patterns. Yes, different gauge sizes can affect the way the shot will spread. Point is, shotguns are a lot more indepth than many give it credit for. Honestly, I think it is the most complex subject consisting of somany variables.

I will say something I've said many times here before to close this with though. I feel every household should have three weapons. A .30-.30 rifle, a 12 gauge shotgun, and a .22 rifle. These three guns will defend you, feed you, are easy to find ammo for (at a cheap price), and are relatively easy firearms to work on yourself.

[Ronin Truth]

I was hoping more people would get involved, but seems most like to read (which there is nothing wrong with either).


For home defense, you simply cannot beat the shotgun. But even this devastating firearm has a lot of myths floating around it.

1) "You can't miss with the shotgun". People that say this have never shot a shotgun in their lives. At around 15 feet (which is the average room width in American houses), 00 buckshot is going to have a spread pattern of around 3" to 4". While that is a great deal more impact area than from a pistol round, it doesn't take too much of a jerk to pull that shot off target. This is also why all home defense shotguns should have a stock, and not just a pistol grip. True one can put a laser on a pistol grip only shotgun, or even mount a light and use the center of the light as an aim point, but there is still a strong possibility of missing. Shouldering that weapon and using a good sight picture combined with a 4" spread will all but guarantee a hit though.

2) "I like to use birdshot for home defense". This will work to deter, but will not kill. Birdshot gives a wider pattern, and more pellets....but, gives up kinetic energy which takes away penetration. If your goal is to make an intruder either leave your house, or hope to incapacitate without risk of death, then birdshot is great. But shooting an opponent across the room with birdshot will scare him, but he can also be armed himself, and it is impossible to know his mental or physical state. In other words, if he is on a drug like methamphetamine, he won't feel as much pain as he should, and since the birdshot will not deliver a killing wound, you are now in a gun fight with someone using a round that will not kill. And yes, you can get lucky and hit the eyes, or some other lucky shot. But your life and that of our famliy is a hell o a thing to gamble with.

3) "I like tactical shotgun stocks". I'm not completely knocking these, as I have a couple of shotguns built this way as well. However, my actual home defense shotgun still has the wooden stock on it. By removing the wood stock, you're taking a melee weapon away from yourself. If you smack someone with a wood stock attached to a shotgun, you'll split their head wide open. A polymer tactical stock is going to break.


As I said, I am a firm believer in the scatter gun. I have one on each side of the bed (for both my wife and I), as well as one in my truck along with a .30-.30 rifle in an overhead gun rack in my truck. It is my preferred hunting weapon, as it can kill anything that walks, crawls, or flies in the US. I don't carry a "shotgun handgun" for personal defense though, as there is simply too much compromise of the round's capability to get it into such a small package.

Different gauges is a whole other topic, but I'll give a brief look. .12 gauge is popular, and considered the best all around gauge. But that does not mean it's the best for everything. For example, for bird hunting, the .16 gauge is better due to round patterns. Yes, different gauge sizes can affect the way the shot will spread. Point is, shotguns are a lot more indepth than many give it credit for. Honestly, I think it is the most complex subject consisting of somany variables.

I will say something I've said many times here before to close this with though. I feel every household should have three weapons. A .30-.30 rifle, a 12 gauge shotgun, and a .22 rifle. These three guns will defend you, feed you, are easy to find ammo for (at a cheap price), and are relatively easy firearms to work on yourself.

My pump 12 gauge for primary home defense is loaded with #4 shot. That's much harder to miss completely with, at expected typical ranges, and will definitely screw up a bad guy's day, big time.

[phill4paul]

My pump 12 gauge for primary home defense is loaded with #4 shot. That's much harder to miss completely with, at expected typical ranges, and will definitely screw up a bad guy's day, big time.

I stack. #4, 00, slug. I figure I can cycle out to what is needed.

[Ronin Truth]

I stack. #4, 00, slug. I figure I can cycle out to what is needed.

If you have the time and can remember, under the stress of the moment.

[phill4paul]

If you have the time and can remember, under the stress of the moment.

Well, if it is o'dark thirty and the brain is foggy, simply pulling the trigger is an excellent way of cycling.

[fedupinmo]

The PAP M92... punch a hole and set them on fire, all at the same time.



Who needs a light?

Very true, and I probably should have made that clear, especially regarding my AKM. My father bought it in '88, so it is pre-ban. The only real value it had was the fact it was my daddy's gun for years, until a knowledgeable dealer saw it, and explained what my father had left me. It is a Polytech AKM with folding stock. It is Chinese made, which is why I never thought much of it outside of sentimental value. However, it turns out it is considered among AK enthusiasts as the Rolls Royce of the AKs.

So yeah.....what 98% of owners of that firearm consider it a safe queen, and don't want to even take it outside, I spent two decades running around the country with it, and put Lord knows how many rounds through it. But, even with the wear, that AK was valued at $3k, which was eye opening. It's the only AK I've ever shot, and might explain why I could not understand all the accuracy issues I saw people citing. Because while the sights leave something to be desired, it is a hard hitting mamba jamma, and maintains tight groups for the first 40 to 50 rounds. But even then, it's solid on target....that group just opens up some.

Side folder or underfolder? Worth some bux either way... but not an AKM, it is AK47 pattern. The Chinese didn't make the leap to AKM pattern. I do love Chinese though, have two myself, one fixed stock, one underfolder.

[Intoxiklown]

The PAP M92... punch a hole and set them on fire, all at the same time.



Who needs a light?



Side folder or underfolder? Worth some bux either way... but not an AKM, it is AK47 pattern. The Chinese didn't make the leap to AKM pattern. I do love Chinese though, have two myself, one fixed stock, one underfolder.

It is the side folder. You're stating a common missconcepton regarding AKs. The M stands for "modernized", and pretty much applies to all AK pattern rifles made made after the 1950s. I own a Polytech AKM762.

[Ronin Truth]

Aside from time, what's the diff between the AK47 and the AK74?

[fedupinmo]

It is the side folder. You're stating a common missconcepton regarding AKs. The M stands for "modernized", and pretty much applies to all AK pattern rifles made made after the 1950s. I own a Polytech AKM762.

Side folders are SEXY!
However, if you had to replace any of the barrel components, you would have to use milled AK parts because AKM parts wouldn't fit. IIRC, the interior dimensions of the receiver also match the AK 47 spec, and an AKM lower hand guard requires modification to fit due to the thicker receiver, front sight block, and front trunnion. Chinese AKs also lack the sight rail common to most AKM variants but kept the double hook trigger and smooth receiver cover of the AK over the single hook trigger and ribbed receiver cover of the AKM. The Type 56 also kept the vented gas tube of the AK over the vented gas block on the AKM.
The Russian's, IIRC, didn't give the AKM specs to the Chinese as relations had cooled between them by that time, so the Chinese reverse engineered their stamped AK from the milled model.
I have to admit though, I have never personally held a Type 56-2, and my personal experience has been limited to the Modernized Automat Kalashnikov of 1990, although my underfolder is a neutered for import Min Shan Type 56-1.

Aside from time, what's the diff between the AK47 and the AK74?

Caliber of course... also the bolt stem is thinner, 90 degree gas block over pre-drilled gas port instead of 45 degree gas block with port drilled after gb installation, 24mm threaded front sight block instead of 14mm threaded barrel, different barrel journal diameters. The Saiga 7.62x39 has more in common with a 74 than it does with an AKM as well.

[Ronin Truth]

Caliber of course... also the bolt stem is thinner, 90 degree gas block over pre-drilled gas port instead of 45 degree gas block with port drilled after gb installation, 24mm threaded front sight block instead of 14mm threaded barrel, different barrel journal diameters. The Saiga 7.62x39 has more in common with a 74 than it does with an AKM as well.

Thanks for the info.

[Intoxiklown]

Side folders are SEXY!
However, if you had to replace any of the barrel components, you would have to use milled AK parts because AKM parts wouldn't fit. IIRC, the interior dimensions of the receiver also match the AK 47 spec, and an AKM lower hand guard requires modification to fit due to the thicker receiver, front sight block, and front trunnion. Chinese AKs also lack the sight rail common to most AKM variants but kept the double hook trigger and smooth receiver cover of the AK over the single hook trigger and ribbed receiver cover of the AKM. The Type 56 also kept the vented gas tube of the AK over the vented gas block on the AKM.
The Russian's, IIRC, didn't give the AKM specs to the Chinese as relations had cooled between them by that time, so the Chinese reverse engineered their stamped AK from the milled model.
I have to admit though, I have never personally held a Type 56-2, and my personal experience has been limited to the Modernized Automat Kalashnikov of 1990, although my underfolder is a neutered for import Min Shan Type 56-1.

LOL....you went in more detail than I've ever read before. It has never had any work done on it, or had anything replaced. It is an original pre-ban bought in '87 or '88 AK. Stamped on the firearm is Plolytech AKM762 Bejeing, China. I posted pictures of it here a couple of years ago. I was under the impression the AKM design was nothing more than ways to reduce weight mainly (like go to stamped instead of milled), as well as ways to ease production and increase strength (like rivets instead of weld spots). I know they re-calibrated sights, as well as changed trigger assembly for safer full auto fire, ect. I know the Chinese modified it even more when they started producing them, which is why their designs are more sought after.

[Seraphim]

Aside from time, what's the diff between the AK47 and the AK74?

The 74 uses smaller rounds (5.45x39mm as opposed to 7.62x39mm). Bullet velocity is higher on the 74 vs the 47 and the 74 has about double the range the 47 has but a good shooter can get triple the range.

[Ronin Truth]

The 74 uses smaller rounds (5.45x39mm as opposed to 7.62x39mm). Bullet velocity is higher on the 74 vs the 47 and the 74 has about double the range the 47 has but a good shooter can get triple the range.

Info! Thanks!