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Thread: Responding to Common Objections to the Bible-How Could God Send Those he Loves to Hell?

  1. #1

    Responding to Common Objections to the Bible-How Could God Send Those he Loves to Hell?

    How Could God Send Those he Loves to Hell?

    God sends no one to hell, people chose by free will separation from him 2 Thessalonians 1.9. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels not for humans Matthew 25.4. Haven was prepared for man Matthew 25.34. There are also various degrees of punishment in hell Matt 11 22-24 Romans 2.6.

    Okay, for the sake of argument, let’s pretend that it is really mean of God to punish people for rebellion and unbelief. For the sake of argument, let’s say that everyone does go to Heaven, regardless of their status in the Book of Life. Wouldn’t it be horribly unfair for God to condemn people who hate Him to an eternity in His presence, whether they like it or not? Heaven wouldn’t be pleasant for those who hate God, because Heaven is the place where we willfully experience God’s presence. Those who love God look forward to Heaven with longing, but Heaven would be nearly as bad as Hell for the unbeliever, because the unregenerate heart hates God.

    Soin a sense, Hell is God finally giving the unbeliever what he wantedall along. But the absence of God means the absence ofeverythinggood,since everything good comes from Him. AsC.S. Lewis has written:
    "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell choose it."

    When unbelieving critics talk about Hell, they sometimes speak like it will be full of innocent people (like themselves!). However, the Bible doesn’t indicate that innocent people will spend a single moment in Hell.Rather, Hell is God’s answer to the fundamental injustice of this life. There are many murderers, rapists, and other people who wreak havoc in the lives of others, who never experience judgment in this life.Everyone knows that it is wrong that these people never be brought to account for what they’ve done; something in the human heart demands justice.And Hell is God’s answer.
    Creation.com

    RandyAlcorn writes:

    Without Hell, justice would never overtake the unrepentant tyrants responsible for murdering millions. Perpetrators of evil throughout the ages would get away with murder—and rape, and torture, and every evil. Even if we may acknowledge Hell as a necessary and just punishment for evildoers, however, we rarely see ourselves as worthy of Hell.”

    There is no one rigteous, not even one. There is no one who understands,no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one”
    Romans3:10–12

    It’shard to accept that we deserve punishment. But most people have grievances against others—if someone stole from you, or hurt your children, or if you were a victim of something fundamentally unjust,you would want justice; your sense of what is right would demand that the person at fault pay a penalty for wronging you.Every time we break God’s law,that’s an affront to God, and He demands justice,just as we do imperfectly on a smaller scale.If you’ve ever said in your heart, “That person should pay for what he did!” then you fundamentally agree with the idea of Hell,because the doctrine of Hell says somebody is going to pay for every sin, eventually. But the person who goes to Hell must reject Christ, who died so that any one who repents can be saved. So God is not to be blamed when an unrepentant, rebellious creature chooses a destructive path that leads to Hell. It is not gods fault that many will reject him, his offer is still fair and loving as hell was never meant for man. Man chooses to go there and that choice has nothing to do with gods love or fairness, but mans free will. What of the people who do accept him? Should he not have made them because of those that chose life with out god?

    The demand that God should forgive such a man while he remains what he is, is based on a confusion between condoning and forgiving. To condone an evil is simply to ignore it, to treat it as if it were good. But forgiveness needs to be accepted as well as offered if it is to be complete: a man who admits no guilt can accept no forgiveness.”
    -C.S Lewis, The Problem of Pain

    Is hell literal fire?

    Hell was prepared for devil and his angels Matthew 25.41, they are spiritual beings unaffected by physical fire. Hell is described as dark with flames Matthew 8.12, fire if literal would cancel each other out. Fire is a picture of judgment, in Deuteronomy 9 and other places, it says God goes before Israel as a consuming fire, it means judgment. He judges Canaan, yet never burns them or cause fire. The fire of his judgment was not literal fire, but his judgment.

    Eternity?

    We live in time, time itself is a created thing, so in eternity its not like time passes by forever. we will be outside of time in eternity,something very hard to understand and grasp.

    Why did God not create a world were all would be saved?


    I think a part of a William lane Craig's debate might help.

    “Suppose that God could create a world in which everyone is freely saved, butt here is only one problem: all such worlds have only one person in them! Does God's being all-loving compel Him to prefer one of these under populated worlds over a world in which multitudes are saved,even though some people freely go to hell? I don't think so. God's being all-loving implies that in any world He creates He desires and strives for the salvation of every person in that world. But people who would freely reject God's every effort to save them shouldn't be allowed to have some sort of veto power over what worlds God is freeto create. Why should the joy and the blessedness of those who would freely accept God's salvation be precluded because of those who would stubbornly and freely reject it? It seems to me that God's being all-loving would at the very most require Him to create a world having an optimal balance between saved and lost, a world where as many as possible freely accept salvation and as few as possible freely reject it.”
    Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-a...#ixzz2HNKHOzoD

    But to add onto that, god allows things to happen even though he knows the future. So for example, god punishes certain people for there crimes, yet he waits until the crime is committed. He could punish right off [a murderer] and not allow it to happen. Yet he first allows it and than gives consequence. Same with salvation, he tries to draw near to people who he knows will reject him, Jesus dies for all sinners not just those that would receive him etc

    What was the purpose of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

    Some say that a lot of trouble could have been avoided if God had just left the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil out of the Garden.But this misunderstands the vital function of the Tree. The other commands God gave Adam and Eve were fairly self-explanatory and had pleasant outcomes for them, but what was the purpose of the command not to eat from the Tree? It may seem surprising, but God had a loving purpose in putting the Tree in the Garden. God created human beings to be in a relationship with Him. But a true loving relationship has to be freely given or chosen—one could program a robot to think it loves its programmer, but that would be meaningless because the robot didn’t have a choice. God wanted human beings to love Him freely, for who He is, not just for what He had given and provided for them. But that required the chance to not love Him, to rebel. The function of the Tree was to give Adam a chance to obey or rebel, and Adam chose to eat the fruit and to rebel against God. There were two pivotal times in history when God freely gave and made a way that mankind could choose to have a relationship with Him, the Creation and the Incarnation. This also highlights why the battle of Creation is so important. The Fall from grace in the original Creation should help us understand our plight in this sin cursed world, and make it that much easier to recognize what God has done through Jesus.
    http://creation.com/hell
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 08-11-2017 at 12:42 PM.



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  3. #2
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Thanks for the post, could you please give a quick summary of any arguments related to my op for me to respond to. All I have seen is arguments for why is their death and suffering if god is all loving and what of those who have never heard of Christianity. Those are great objection and one I will create there own thread for. I love those objections.

    But having listened to 4 minutes of the above video, he is objecting to a desist god, not a biblical god as that comes from the bible. Or else he just has never read the bible so therefore his objections could be exspalined.

    So as to this thread, the topic is how could there be a hell, if god is all loving. Anything related to this issue, i would love to respond to. Six minutes know and i have not seen anything from this video related to the topic. But please summarize anything you see as an argument.

  5. #4
    The problem of Hell, so to speak, isn't that it punishes people. Rather it is that many Christian believe it is eternal. If Hell is about justice, how can you justly punish anyone for something forever? Even in human justice we understand that eventually punishments run their course. Especially since, as many Christian also believe, God blesses those who innocently suffer such that their suffering is removed and their scars, whether literal or metaphorical, are completely healed. God makes full restitution for the evils of the world. So no action done to you, no matter how vile and hurtful, will ever have eternal negatives consequences. This means punishing someone eternal for something they caused another to suffer temporarily doesn't add up. It becomes unjust as soon as you suffer more than you caused others to suffer. Eternal suffering for temporary pain is unjust.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    Thanks for the post, could you please give a quick summary of any arguments related to my op for me to respond to. All I have seen is arguments for why is their death and suffering if god is all loving and what of those who have never heard of Christianity.
    That pretty much is it.

    It comes from someone who doesn't understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ and just how universally applicable it is to all of the problems of mortality. He keeps accusing God of either not being able to or not caring about human suffering. Yet God does care and has a way to cure such pain and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The problem of Hell, so to speak, isn't that it punishes people. Rather it is that many Christian believe it is eternal. If Hell is about justice, how can you justly punish anyone for something forever? Even in human justice we understand that eventually punishments run their course. Especially since, as many Christian also believe, God blesses those who innocently suffer such that their suffering is removed and their scars, whether literal or metaphorical, are completely healed. God makes full restitution for the evils of the world. So no action done to you, no matter how vile and hurtful, will ever have eternal negatives consequences. This means punishing someone eternal for something they caused another to suffer temporarily doesn't add up. It becomes unjust as soon as you suffer more than you caused others to suffer. Eternal suffering for temporary pain is unjust.
    This assumes the persons in hell dont sin and are in no need of punishment. As i said in my op, eternity time does not pass by, it is not just a long, long time, no time passes, its outside of time, time itself is a created thing. So I think we should be careful in our conclusions based on this. I also would like to add their are degrees of hell and that God wants nobody to go there, it was not made for man. What other option does god have with a eternal being [us] who refuses to live in his presence? annihilation? I think this is similar to abortion because a child might have a reduced life [autism etc] i do not see this as constant with the biblical god.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    Thanks for the post, could you please give a quick summary of any arguments related to my op for me to respond to. All I have seen is arguments for why is their death and suffering if god is all loving and what of those who have never heard of Christianity. Those are great objection and one I will create there own thread for. I love those objections.

    But having listened to 4 minutes of the above video, he is objecting to a desist god, not a biblical god as that comes from the bible. Or else he just has never read the bible so therefore his objections could be exspalined.

    So as to this thread, the topic is how could there be a hell, if god is all loving. Anything related to this issue, i would love to respond to. Six minutes know and i have not seen anything from this video related to the topic. But please summarize anything you see as an argument.
    If you listen to the whole video, he speaks specifically to the Christian god. Also, I am not an atheist, I am a deist in the Thomas Paine vein of the term. I do think the arguments contained are solid arguments against a Christian god.

    For example; God creates man sick, then commands him to be well, so to speak. God demands fear and obedience but also that you love him. I could go on for a long long time.

    I'm a logical man, so I will toss this out there.

    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    That pretty much is it.

    It comes from someone who doesn't understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ and just how universally applicable it is to all of the problems of mortality. He keeps accusing God of either not being able to or not caring about human suffering. Yet God does care and has a way to cure such pain and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

    agreed, but i would also add there is a bit more to responding to these objections. If your interested stay around this section of the forum I will be doing those and other topics.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    If you listen to the whole video, he speaks specifically to the Christian god. Also, I am not an atheist, I am a deist in the Thomas Paine vein of the term. I do think the arguments contained are solid arguments against a Christian god.

    For example; God creates man sick, then commands him to be well, so to speak. God demands fear and obedience but also that you love him. I could go on for a long long time.

    I'm a logical man, so I will toss this out there.


    He speaks about the christian god but his theology is of a desist/pagan god not objections to the biblical god. For a great example, lets see what you have said

    "For example; God creates man sick, then commands him to be well, so to speak. God demands fear and obedience but also that you love him. I could go on for a long long time."

    God created man sick? I am asumming you meant a sinner, that god created man a sinner. This is in fact not the biblical god or the theology of Christianity. This is what happens when you get your theology from men like sam harris. Had you read the bible you would know how to respond to this claim. Since this will be more related to a future thread, I shall wait for its time and suggest you read the first few chapters of Genesis, i promise you wont miss it.

    As for obedience, what do you do when you love someone? obey. My wife does not want me to cheat on her, because i love her i obey. Because i love my family, i go work at a job i dislike to make money, love is action. "If you love me, keep my commands. John 14.15. As for a proper fear of the lord. for our "God is a consuming fire. hebrews 12.29. You should fear the creator and judge of the world, all should. But the term "fear of the lord" used in the OT is a reference to religion in general not a fear as we use the term today .But that should be on all peoples heart as well. I love him for creating me, dying on the cross, but i fear him as my judge and as a sinless god that is just.



    Your well known quote from Epicurus applies to why is there death and suffering if god is all loving [not to mention once more applies to a desist god not the god of the bible i will exspalin in that thread] and so is off topic here. There is in fact a illogical setup in the question, but as a logical man [yourself] i am sure you will be able to spot it yourself.


    But nothing you posted has anything to do with the topic of the thread. I would prefer we keep other great questions for when threads are done when its the topic.
    Last edited by 1stvermont; 08-11-2017 at 01:33 PM.

  12. #10
    How could he send those he loves to hell? How about answering some of the more ridiculous claims of the bible, such as creationism, Lot's Daughter and the Angels, Killing Babies, Genocide of entire races....all acts committed by a supposed loving god who suddenly changes his mind for the New Testament...

    The whole thing is so preposterous to me that it still amazes me so many people buy it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Show me evidence that any of the supernatural tales in the old/new testament are true, then we can talk. As it is, the entire bible is copies of copies of copies, written decades after Jesus' life, with whole books removed (which were for centuries included in the canon) and whole books added (like revelations which were NOT part of original canon)...based on not eyewitness accounts, but third and fourth-hand testimonies of iron age peasants.

    Read The Age of Reason (Thomas Paine, 1794). The first 50 pages do a better job of portraying my thoughts on the subject than I could do here.

    Every national church or religion has established itself by pretending
    some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals.
    The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their
    apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God
    was not open to every man alike.
    Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation,
    or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by
    God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God
    came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God
    (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those
    churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve
    them all.
    As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed
    further into the subject, offer some observations on the word revelation.
    Revelation when applied to religion, means something communicated
    immediately from God to man.
    No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a
    communication if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that
    something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any
    other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a
    second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases
    to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person
    only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged
    to believe it.

    It is a contradiction in terms and ideas to call anything a revelation
    that comes to us at second hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation
    is necessarily limited to the first communication. After this, it is only an
    account of something which that person says was a revelation made to
    him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be
    incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner, for it was not a
    revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made
    to him.

    When Moses told the children of Israel that he received the two tables
    of the commandments from the hand of God, they were not obliged to
    believe him, because they had no other authority for it than his telling
    them so; and I have no other authority for it than some historian telling
    me so, the commandments carrying no internal evidence of divinity with
    them. They contain some good moral precepts such as any man qualified
    to be a lawgiver or a legislator could produce himself, without having recourse
    to supernatural intervention.1
    When I am told that the Koran was written in Heaven, and brought to
    Mahomet by an angel, the account comes to near the same kind of
    hearsay evidence and second hand authority as the former. I did not see
    the angel myself, and therefore I have a right not to believe it.
    When also I am told that a woman, called the Virgin Mary, said, or
    gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man,
    and that her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I
    have a right to believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much
    stronger evidence than their bare word for it: but we have not even this;
    for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves. It is only
    reported by others that they said so. It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do
    not chose to rest my belief upon such evidence.
    It is, however, not difficult to account for the credit that was given to
    the story of Jesus Christ being the Son of God. He was born when the
    heathen mythology had still some fashion and repute in the world, and
    that mythology had prepared the people for the belief of such a story. Almost
    all the extraordinary men that lived under the heathen mythology
    were reputed to be the sons of some of their gods. It was not a new thing
    at that time to believe a man to have been celestially begotten; the intercourse
    of gods with women was then a matter of familiar opinion. Their
    Jupiter, according to their accounts, had cohabited with hundreds; the
    story therefore had nothing in it either new, wonderful, or obscene; it
    was conformable to the opinions that then prevailed among the people
    called Gentiles, or mythologists, and it was those people only that believed
    it. The Jews, who had kept strictly to the belief of one God, and no
    more, and who had always rejected the heathen mythology, never credited
    the story.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    He speaks about the christian god but his theology is of a desist/pagan god not objections to the biblical god. For a great example, lets see what you have said

    "For example; God creates man sick, then commands him to be well, so to speak. God demands fear and obedience but also that you love him. I could go on for a long long time."

    God created man sick? I am asumming you meant a sinner, that god created man a sinner. This is in fact not the biblical god or the theology of Christianity. This is what happens when you get your theology from men like sam harris. Had you read the bible you would know how to respond to this claim. Since this will be more related to a future thread, I shall wait for its time and suggest you read the first few chapters of Genesis, i promise you wont miss it.

    As for obedience, what do you do when you love someone? obey. My wife does not want me to cheat on her, because i love her i obey. Because i love my family, i go work at a job i dislike to make money, love is action. "If you love me, keep my commands. John 14.15. As for a proper fear of the lord. for our "God is a consuming fire. hebrews 12.29. You should fear the creator and judge of the world, all should. But the term "fear of the lord" used in the OT is a reference to religion in general not a fear as we use the term today .But that should be on all peoples heart as well. I love him for creating me, dying on the cross, but i fear him as my judge and as a sinless god that is just.



    Your well known quote from Epicurus applies to why is there death and suffering if god is all loving [not to mention once more applies to a desist god not the god of the bible i will exspalin in that thread] and so is off topic here. There is in fact a illogical setup in the question, but as a logical man [yourself] i am sure you will be able to spot it yourself.


    But nothing you posted has anything to do with the topic of the thread. I would prefer we keep other great questions for when threads are done when its the topic.
    I've read the bible, many times. As I've read the Koran and many other so called 'revelations'. I was simply using the example of words.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    How could he send those he loves to hell? How about answering some of the more ridiculous claims of the bible, such as creationism, Lot's Daughter and the Angels, Killing Babies, Genocide of entire races....all acts committed by a supposed loving god who suddenly changes his mind for the New Testament...

    The whole thing is so preposterous to me that it still amazes me so many people buy it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Show me evidence that any of the supernatural tales in the old/new testament are true, then we can talk. As it is, the entire bible is copies of copies of copies, written decades after Jesus' life, with whole books removed (which were for centuries included in the canon) and whole books added (like revelations which were NOT part of original canon)...based on not eyewitness accounts, but third and fourth-hand testimonies of iron age peasants.

    Read The Age of Reason (Thomas Paine, 1794). The first 50 pages do a better job of portraying my thoughts on the subject than I could do here.

    well i am glad your on these forums, you are just the kind of person i did these threads for. You have all the same kind of objections i had to the bible/god when i was growing up. What i suggest to you is to investigate for yourself, and dont believe what you want to but find out what is true. If you do that it will lead you to jesus. Many dont want that and so do not give an honest investigation. I suggest reading the bible and writing down any objections you have and watching debates and finding the best arguments on both sides of every issue. If you rely on media/liberal education, you wont find it. For starters you can stay around on this forum I will be doing threads on everything you have brought up [maybe not lots daughter but you can bring that up during the conquest of cannan or as you call it genocide i assume from Dawkins]


    But I do ask if you could keep your great objections for when they are relevant to the thread. This threads topic is on hell and a all loving god, how could he allow people to go there. If you have anything to that effect, voice the concern please.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    I've read the bible, many times. As I've read the Koran and many other so called 'revelations'. I was simply using the example of words.

    as have I. I however find it hard to believe you have read the bible when your objections are inconstant with basic christian theology.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    well i am glad your on these forums, you are just the kind of person i did these threads for. You have all the same kind of objections i had to the bible/god when i was growing up. What i suggest to you is to investigate for yourself, and dont believe what you want to but find out what is true. If you do that it will lead you to jesus. Many dont want that and so do not give an honest investigation. I suggest reading the bible and writing down any objections you have and watching debates and finding the best arguments on both sides of every issue. If you rely on media/liberal education, you wont find it. For starters you can stay around on this forum I will be doing threads on everything you have brought up [maybe not lots daughter but you can bring that up during the conquest of cannan or as you call it genocide i assume from Dawkins]


    But I do ask if you could keep your great objections for when they are relevant to the thread. This threads topic is on hell and a all loving god, how could he allow people to go there. If you have anything to that effect, voice the concern please.
    Agreed. I will do my best to keep the thread on topic. As to your post. I am the opposite. I was raised Christian and came to reject it based upon the evidence (there isn't any). I have read many many books. I have watched many many debates. I cannot base my life upon something that is, in my opinion, wholly fabricated and man made. You say to follow the evidence and it will lead me to Jesus... to which I would reply, show me the evidence. Every time I ask this question from a Christian, they point to the bible, to which I say, that is not evidence. It is no more 'divine revelation' than any of the other holy books that have existed throughout time. As I'm sure you've heard argued before, you are almost as much of a non-believer as me. You don't believe in 9599 gods whereas I don't believe in 9600.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Agreed. I will do my best to keep the thread on topic. As to your post. I am the opposite. I was raised Christian and came to reject it based upon the evidence (there isn't any). I have read many many books. I have watched many many debates. I cannot base my life upon something that is, in my opinion, wholly fabricated and man made. You say to follow the evidence and it will lead me to Jesus... to which I would reply, show me the evidence. Every time I ask this question from a Christian, they point to the bible, to which I say, that is not evidence. It is no more 'divine revelation' than any of the other holy books that have existed throughout time. As I'm sure you've heard argued before, you are almost as much of a non-believer as me. You don't believe in 9599 gods whereas I don't believe in 9600.

    Thank you for keeping the thread on topic my friend. I want to assure i would never try to get anyone to believe anything wholly fabricated and man made such as sam harris arguments. Rather truth.


    my story. i was raised catholic rejected it because they could not answer my objections such as contradictions, evolution, a supposed ot evil angry god vs jesus of the new etc and was taught evolution and believed it. i search for responses and found none so i became an atheist. Than a grew up. I was challenged by someone close to me to read the bible for myself and to challenge what i believed and i searched for the best from both sides. Despite wanting to turn back and stop the search, i decied i would believe what is true not what i wanted. So i tried to disprove the bible every way i could. But i would not accept what seemed a valid argument because i liked its conclusion, i spent much time digging. Know i am a crazy christian.


    i would suggest your search for both sides was not as genuine or were very unlucky on sources given some of your posts and statements. They sound rather of someone who listens to atheist and believe what they say and does not question their own beliefs, we shall see and i look forward to future discussions.

    as too the bible i agree it is not evidence alone, it must be tested. it is a hypothesis alone but can be tested many ways. I think we shall do just that on my future threads. I would also say to you there is only one truth, just because people are wrong about something in many ways does not make truth no longer true. You believe in a certain faith [atheistic evolution] and reject all others. We all do. 2 plus 2 is 4 no matter is my son says its 1,6,11,14 or 8. Many ways to be wrong only one way is truth. People will reject god in so many ways though various idols, that does not make him not true. I am not an atheist, i just recognize the true god and do not make an idol. Of course if i am correct, than there should be a vast difference between god given revelation [the bible] and idol worshiping religions/beliefs. Perhaps a thread may be made for this question as well [hint hint].

    but lets see how logical the question is. Imagine a murder case in a court.

    You believe John Smith killed this man? Well, I don’t think anybody killed this man; he died accidentally. I mean, think about it. There are 7 billion potential murderers out there, and you believe that 6,999,999,999 of them did not kill this man. I just believe in one less murderer than you do .”

    would this prove the murder never happened?

  18. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The problem of Hell, so to speak, isn't that it punishes people. Rather it is that many Christian believe it is eternal. If Hell is about justice, how can you justly punish anyone for something forever? Even in human justice we understand that eventually punishments run their course. Especially since, as many Christian also believe, God blesses those who innocently suffer such that their suffering is removed and their scars, whether literal or metaphorical, are completely healed. God makes full restitution for the evils of the world. So no action done to you, no matter how vile and hurtful, will ever have eternal negatives consequences. This means punishing someone eternal for something they caused another to suffer temporarily doesn't add up. It becomes unjust as soon as you suffer more than you caused others to suffer. Eternal suffering for temporary pain is unjust.
    Thanks for clearing up the bit about eternal punishment.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by 1stvermont View Post
    Perhaps a thread may be made for this question as well [hint hint].
    If you search a bit,, I'm sure there is.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    If you search a bit,, I'm sure there is.

    i was hinting that i will do a future thread on that subject.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The problem of Hell, so to speak, isn't that it punishes people. Rather it is that many Christian believe it is eternal. If Hell is about justice, how can you justly punish anyone for something forever? Even in human justice we understand that eventually punishments run their course. Especially since, as many Christian also believe, God blesses those who innocently suffer such that their suffering is removed and their scars, whether literal or metaphorical, are completely healed. God makes full restitution for the evils of the world. So no action done to you, no matter how vile and hurtful, will ever have eternal negatives consequences. This means punishing someone eternal for something they caused another to suffer temporarily doesn't add up. It becomes unjust as soon as you suffer more than you caused others to suffer. Eternal suffering for temporary pain is unjust.
    Rather it is that many Christian believe it is eternal. If Hell is about justice, how can you justly punish anyone for something forever?
    Was man created by the eternal Creator to return to dust? Or do we return to dust and experience justice as a consequence of our sin?

    If an awesome eternity was plan "A" to begin with, it seems a bit disingenuous for a Christian (me) to discount an eternal negative consequence of the fall of man.

    Just sayin'.

    Genesis 2
    15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


    Genesis 3
    18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."


    As a believer in awesome eternity plan "B", it sure looks to me that an awesome eternity was plan "A".
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
    Ron Paul

    Please watch, subscribe, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report
    BITCHUTE IS A LIBERTY MINDED ALTERNATIVE TO GOOGLE SUBSIDIARY YOUTUBE

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The problem of Hell, so to speak, isn't that it punishes people. Rather it is that many Christian believe it is eternal. If Hell is about justice, how can you justly punish anyone for something forever? Even in human justice we understand that eventually punishments run their course. Especially since, as many Christian also believe, God blesses those who innocently suffer such that their suffering is removed and their scars, whether literal or metaphorical, are completely healed. God makes full restitution for the evils of the world. So no action done to you, no matter how vile and hurtful, will ever have eternal negatives consequences. This means punishing someone eternal for something they caused another to suffer temporarily doesn't add up. It becomes unjust as soon as you suffer more than you caused others to suffer. Eternal suffering for temporary pain is unjust.
    Seventh Day Adventist reject hell being eternal as do some other Protestants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism Martin Luther, often called the father of the reformation, believed the "soul sleep" theory of death which is that when you die you are in an unconscious state until the judgment, and conditional immortality of the soul. http://www.truthaccordingtoscripture...itionalism.php

    There is scriptural evidence for both majority and the minority view. I happen to be in the minority camp.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bunklocoempire View Post
    Was man created by the eternal Creator to return to dust? Or do we return to dust and experience justice as a consequence of our sin?

    If an awesome eternity was plan "A" to begin with, it seems a bit disingenuous for a Christian (me) to discount an eternal negative consequence of the fall of man.

    Just sayin'.

    Genesis 2
    15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. 16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


    Genesis 3
    18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; 19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."


    As a believer in awesome eternity plan "B", it sure looks to me that an awesome eternity was plan "A".
    Okay, I'm not following your argument on plan A and plan B. But I see nothing disingenuous about a Christian rejecting on biblical grounds, as Martin Luther did, the idea that God will torture the lost forever and ever. That doesn't mean that 2nd death is not eternal. If you are never brought to life again from it, then it is indeed eternal death.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #22
    I suppose I have a somewhat different perspective,,

    Hell was never made for Man.

    I do believe that the Spirit is eternal.

    I Believe that God is Just.

    I believe that this subject is a complex and many faceted jewel.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    If you listen to the whole video, he speaks specifically to the Christian god. Also, I am not an atheist, I am a deist in the Thomas Paine vein of the term. I do think the arguments contained are solid arguments against a Christian god.

    For example; God creates man sick, then commands him to be well, so to speak. God demands fear and obedience but also that you love him. I could go on for a long long time.

    I'm a logical man, so I will toss this out there.

    Ah....but the Christian God is a god that grants freewill to His creation. Adam and Eve chose to know both good and evil. So God, being a god of freedom, allowed them to have that choice. The only way to know evil is to experience evil. But God, also being a god of love, did not leave the human race at the mercy of the bad choice our forebears made. Thus Jesus paid the price for sin so that we could ultimately be delivered from evil. The Christian God is really the only moral god ever described.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #24
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    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w2lDNTncIW0

    I very much disagree with that perspective.
    Last edited by Lamp; 08-26-2017 at 03:40 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay, I'm not following your argument on plan A and plan B. But I see nothing disingenuous about a Christian rejecting on biblical grounds, as Martin Luther did, the idea that God will torture the lost forever and ever. That doesn't mean that 2nd death is not eternal. If you are never brought to life again from it, then it is indeed eternal death.
    Sorry about that ...and I'm having trouble with the wording (?) of your Luther idea.

    A little copy and pasta from the W.E.L.S.:

    The Bible and Lutherans teach that many of God’s angels sinned and became powerful evil spirits, called demons. They are enemies of God and believers. The devil (Satan) is their leader. Although God threw them down into hell, they tempt everyone to sin and seek to destroy a believer’s faith. On the Last Day all who have died without faith in Jesus Christ, will also be condemned to hell. Hell is a place of eternal torment and separation from God.

    Ephesians 6:11,12; 1 Peter 5:8,9 ; Jude 6; Matthew 25:41; Isaiah 66:24


    My plan A and plan B statement was meant to show that we were created as eternal creatures, and as such, eternal consequences will follow an eternal creature -be that good or bad. (Recently, we're studying Genesis in our little bible group, just finished the creation and fall of man)

    The miracle of faith in Jesus by God's grace and no doing of my own? -eternally good, hanging out in God's presence.
    No Jesus? - eternally bad.
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
    Ron Paul

    Please watch, subscribe, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report
    BITCHUTE IS A LIBERTY MINDED ALTERNATIVE TO GOOGLE SUBSIDIARY YOUTUBE

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Ah....but the Christian God is a god that grants freewill to His creation. Adam and Eve chose to know both good and evil. So God, being a god of freedom, allowed them to have that choice. The only way to know evil is to experience evil. But God, also being a god of love, did not leave the human race at the mercy of the bad choice our forebears made. Thus Jesus paid the price for sin so that we could ultimately be delivered from evil. The Christian God is really the only moral god ever described.
    Yep.

    I've always found it telling how man wants a god, but wants a god that isn't too perfect.
    Grading on a curve, hiding in a herd.

    Easier to not want freedom, than to stand accountable.
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
    Ron Paul

    Please watch, subscribe, like, & share, Ron Paul Liberty Report
    BITCHUTE IS A LIBERTY MINDED ALTERNATIVE TO GOOGLE SUBSIDIARY YOUTUBE

  31. #27
    The word "hell" is not even in the scriptures. It's a bad translation for the words or phrases sheol, hades, and Gehenna of fire. Anyway, God doesn't send anyone to "hell". Christ's finished work on the cross was for the reconciliation of all.

    Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.

    The illusion of "free will" is just an illusion and can be disproved by this scripture:

    Ro 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.

    Yes, God will pour out His wrath, but it doesn't last "forever". The word "forever" is also a bad translation and not found in the scriptures.

    Do some research and you will find that many Christian myths are just that, "myths and traditions" that Paul spoke about in 2 Tim 4:3.

  32. #28
    It also helps to learn the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

    Hell, in some parts of the Bible means grave.

    There is no hell at this time. When we die we go to Paradise. However as in Luke 16:26 he speaks of a great gulf that divides the people. One side will have those who know God's word and the other side will have those who have been deceived or never truly heard God's word.

    For those who didn't make it, they have the millennium (The Lord's Day) to learn about God without Satan's influence in their life. God is always fair. They will still have the free will to make up their mind. Satan will then be let out of the abyss for a short period and people will choose God or Satan. The white Throne Judgment will commence at this point.

    Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Last edited by donnay; 09-02-2017 at 08:24 AM.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  33. #29
    The answer of course is that God doesn't send anyone He loves to Hell. The ones that God loves will be with Him forever, and He will not fail to save them.

    God doesn't love the non elect. He has anger and wrath against them.

    The Bible answers all these questions.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    The answer of course is that God doesn't send anyone He loves to Hell. The ones that God loves will be with Him forever, and He will not fail to save them.

    God doesn't love the non elect. He has anger and wrath against them.

    The Bible answers all these questions.
    Where? Show us one verse that supports the view that God has no love or compassion for those of His children who don't pass through the narrow door.

    Did Abraham come within an inch of sacrificing Isaac because he didn't love the kid, and was mad at him? So if that equation wasn't so simple, what makes you think God's decision causes Him no pain at all? Did He tell you? Did He carve it in stone and make you climb the mountain for it, or did He just call your cell phone?

    Arrogant cuss.

    Here's another theological question for you to ignore: Is there a difference between someone who assumes intimate details of God's psyche and reports them as fact without a shred of evidence, and a false prophet?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 01-21-2018 at 07:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

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