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Thread: Trump Is First to Use PATRIOT Act to Detain a Man Forever

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by RPtotheWH View Post
    Here comes our dopey US guard unlocking the cell, giving him an EBT card, cell phone and a section 8 apartment
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Yep, and we also need to give him a basic income card, and a nice late model suv.
    Quote Originally Posted by jon4liberty View Post
    Instead we should shower him with flowers and praises. Luxury hotel, five star cuisine, brand new SUV, a couple women etc
    Oh wow, all of that sounds really expensive.


    Are all of you saying that the government shouldn't spend lots of money on this guy?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Yeah because no one was being indefinitely held without trial in gitmo before Trump became president.
    Which of course was a Bush/ Republicans program (as was the Patriot Act). Obama tried to close Gitmo but the Republican congress did their best to prevent it. Some releases were started under Bush. There were over 200 there but that figure was down to 44 by the time Obama left office.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...amo-bay-233859

    Obama slams Congress for blocking efforts to close Gitmo

    President Barack Obama blasted Congress on Thursday for playing politics in repeatedly blocking his efforts to close the terrorist prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which will still have 41 prisoners when he leaves office Friday.

    In a terse letter to leaders on Capitol Hill, Obama said "there is simply no justification beyond politics for the Congress' insistence on keeping the facility open."

    "Members of Congress who obstruct efforts to close the facility, given the stakes involved for our security, have abdicated their responsibility to the American people," he added. "They have placed politics above the ongoing costs to taxpayers, our relationships with our allies, and the threat posed to U.S. national security by leaving open a facility that governments around the world condemn and which hinders rather than helps our fight against terrorism."

    Thursday evening, the Pentagon announced the final four Guantanamo transfers of the Obama administration with just hours remaining in his presidency, sending one detainee to Saudi Arabia and three to the United Arab Emirates.

    The Obama administration has transferred as many inmates as practical to the custody of foreign countries after reviewing their cases — for a total of 196, including more than 50 in the past year, according to a White House fact sheet.

    Republicans have criticized those transfers, accusing Obama of trying to fulfill his campaign promise at the risk of detainees reverting back to terrorism. As many as 30 percent of detainees who have been released have been confirmed or are suspected of re-entering the terrorism fight.

    But Obama argues that most of those were released during the administration of President George W. Bush.

    “For detainees transferred since 2009, less than six percent of former detainees have been confirmed by the Intelligence Community of engaging or reengaging in terrorist activity, and less than seven percent of former detainees are suspected of reengaging in such activity,” Obama wrote.

    Most frustrating to Obama, Congress has repeatedly prevented him from moving the remaining detainees — considered the most dangerous — to maximum security prisons on American soil.

    “The restrictions imposed by the Congress that prevent us from imprisoning detainees — even to prosecute and secure a life sentence — in the United States make no sense,”
    Obama wrote. “No person has ever escaped one of our super-max or military prisons here, ever."

    Human rights advocates have pressed Obama to use his executive powers to close the prison unilaterally but he has opted not to try to circumvent the legislative restrictions.

    President-elect Donald Trump, meanwhile, has vowed to keep the prison open. It is unclear if he intends to hold additional suspected terrorists there.

  4. #93
    It is amazing to see people at a supposedly Libertarian site arguing that it is fine to keeps somebody in prison after completion of the sentence for a non- violent crime and without any new charges to put him in jail for. I can see why there is much support for totalitarian leaders like Putin, Orban, and Erdogan.

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Which of course was a Bush/ Republicans program (as was the Patriot Act). Obama tried to close Gitmo but the Republican congress did their best to prevent it. Some releases were started under Bush. There were over 200 there but that figure was down to 44 by the time Obama left office.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...amo-bay-233859
    Yeah but obama signed NDAA that allowed indefinite detention of american citizens. Thanks democrats.

  6. #95
    Not one of "us" so you don't care. Though it could grow to include "us". Liberty should be for all or it isn't Liberty- it is a privilege for the few.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Yeah but obama signed NDAA that allowed indefinite detention of american citizens. Thanks democrats.
    Which was not good either and he tried to hedge on that:

    https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/...ntion-bill-law

    WASHINGTON – President Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) into law today. The statute contains a sweeping worldwide indefinite detention provision. While President Obama issued a signing statement saying he had “serious reservations” about the provisions, the statement only applies to how his administration would use the authorities granted by the NDAA, and would not affect how the law is interpreted by subsequent administrations. The White House had threatened to veto an earlier version of the NDAA, but reversed course shortly before Congress voted on the final bill.

    “President Obama's action today is a blight on his legacy because he will forever be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law,” said Anthony D. Romero, ACLU executive director. “The statute is particularly dangerous because it has no temporal or geographic limitations, and can be used by this and future presidents to militarily detain people captured far from any battlefield. The ACLU will fight worldwide detention authority wherever we can, be it in court, in Congress, or internationally.”

    Under the Bush administration, similar claims of worldwide detention authority were used to hold even a U.S. citizen detained on U.S. soil in military custody, and many in Congress now assert that the NDAA should be used in the same way again. The ACLU believes that any military detention of American citizens or others within the United States is unconstitutional and illegal, including under the NDAA. In addition, the breadth of the NDAA’s detention authority violates international law because it is not limited to people captured in the context of an actual armed conflict as required by the laws of war.



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    It is amazing to see people at a supposedly Libertarian site arguing that it is fine to keeps somebody in prison after completion of the sentence for a non- violent crime and without any new charges to put him in jail for. I can see why there is much support for totalitarian leaders like Putin, Orban, and Erdogan.
    Neg repped for pointing that out? Some don't support Liberty I guess.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Neg repped for pointing that out? Some don't support Liberty I guess.
    I neg repped you because you don't believe a word of that.
    We agreed that he should be freed, but not in the US. He is not an American.
    ...

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Unlimited detention without any charges. He has not committed any violent crimes (or been accused of any) and served his sentence. He should be freed.

    No country—not the Lebanon of his birth, not the Israel that occupies the West Bank and Gaza—was willing to take him.
    What about the Palestinian Authority, aka Palestine? Of course Israel won't take him but his home country might.

    Except that Donnell, Hillary and the other neocons don't "recognize" Palestine.
    Last edited by RonZeplin; 11-30-2019 at 01:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only show up to attack Trump when he is wrong
    Make America the Land of the Free & the Home of the Brave again

  12. #100

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Poor guy is in a legal limbo, but I gotta solution.

    So this isn't an immigration issue, he was here illegally. He's an invader. He cut checks to enemies-- I doubt after time served he wants to pledge an oath to the Constitution and be a good neighbor. However, his home country doesn't want him back. Here in this country, even Ender won't give him a roof over his head.


    Solution:
    Give him a boat, with six months provisions and let him go in the ocean of his choosing. Simple.
    I was gonna suggest this solution as well but it looks like you beat me to it.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Globalist View Post
    I was gonna suggest this solution as well but it looks like you beat me to it.
    In all honesty, I would actually like it if someone gave me a stocked boat in good condition and sent me on my way. If anyone wants me to go away, buy me a boat.
    ...

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    In all honesty, I would actually like it if someone gave me a stocked boat in good condition and sent me on my way. If anyone wants me to go away, buy me a boat.
    You can check out any time you like but you can never leave

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I neg repped you because you don't believe a word of that.
    We agreed that he should be freed, but not in the US. He is not an American.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RJB again.



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Your "other places" are an intentional distraction from the topic and diversion from the very real belief that you hold as to the government's power to imprison this man.


    This government has no intention to, nor will they in actuality, release this man in any of those "other places." What will happen, as the government has clearly said that it intends to do, is that he will be jailed forever pending someplace for him to go. You echo the government's sentiment repeatedly throughout the thread and endorse their supposed "right" to hold him so indefinitely.
    Your indefinite detention is an intentional distraction from the discussion.

    Nobody here is advocating for his indefinite detention but you attempt to claim that anyone who doesn't want him released in America wants him indefinitely detained.

    He should be released anywhere but here but he must not be released here.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by RonZeplin View Post
    What about the Palestinian Authority, aka Palestine? Of course Israel won't take him but his home country might.

    Except that Donnell, Hillary and the other neocons don't "recognize" Palestine.
    Israel wouldn't let us take him there, they are the ones with the power over that area.

    We should just covertly dump him in Lebanon.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Neg repped for pointing that out? Some don't support Liberty I guess.
    Thanks for reminding me.

    I've been neglecting you lately, Zippy.

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by jon4liberty View Post
    What country? Most countries would have this guy killed. Instead we should shower him with flowers and praises. Luxury hotel, five star cuisine, brand new SUV, a couple women etc
    SFO?

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  22. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by RonZeplin View Post
    What about the Palestinian Authority, aka Palestine? Of course Israel won't take him but his home country might.

    Except that Donnell, Hillary and the other neocons don't "recognize" Palestine.
    Guess who else is a member of that group and believes that exact same thing?

    It won't take much guessing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Israel wouldn't let us take him there, they are the ones with the power over that area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Guess who else is a member of that group and believes that exact same thing?

    It won't take much guessing:
    What I said has nothing to do with recognizing a Palestinian government or not or whether there should be one or not.
    It's about the facts on the ground, Israel has the power over that area and they would prevent our returning him there unless we used force or did it covertly.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #111
    Originally Posted by Zippyjuan Unlimited detention without any charges. He has not committed any violent crimes (or been accused of any) and served his sentence. He should be freed.

    Originally Posted by Ender
    You really think this is $#@!ing OK? Anyone can be next!




    Originally Posted by CCTelander
    The prevailing attitude around here really seems to have become that totalitarianism is just fine as long as it's pointed in the "right" direction. After all, it's the only way to preserve what's left of our "liberty culture." Just ask SS.




    Originally Posted by TheCount
    1) They weren't being held under the PATRIOT act.

    2) This guy isn't being held without trial. He's being held after trial.

    3) The GITMO excuse is that they are military detainees in military detention for military trial for an undeclared war. This is a civil/civilian action.

    I'm guessing that between the four of you , you can collectively rub three brain cells together and decide what
    should be done with the man.




    :crickets:

  25. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Originally Posted by Zippyjuan Unlimited detention without any charges. He has not committed any violent crimes (or been accused of any) and served his sentence. He should be freed.

    Originally Posted by Ender
    You really think this is $#@!ing OK? Anyone can be next!




    Originally Posted by CCTelander
    The prevailing attitude around here really seems to have become that totalitarianism is just fine as long as it's pointed in the "right" direction. After all, it's the only way to preserve what's left of our "liberty culture." Just ask SS.




    Originally Posted by TheCount
    1) They weren't being held under the PATRIOT act.

    2) This guy isn't being held without trial. He's being held after trial.

    3) The GITMO excuse is that they are military detainees in military detention for military trial for an undeclared war. This is a civil/civilian action.

    I'm guessing that between the four of you , you can collectively rub three brain cells together and decide what
    should be done with the man.




    :crickets:
    I'm guessing they want him released in America but won't admit it.

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  27. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm guessing they want him released in America but won't admit it.


    My assessment is similar , but I think they just don't have a clue, it's meme, meme, meme, attack, attack,
    attack, then 'look over there' , etc........

  28. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What I said has nothing to do with recognizing a Palestinian government or not or whether there should be one or not.
    It's about the facts on the ground, Israel has the power over that area and they would prevent our returning him there unless we used force or did it covertly.
    In the exact same post, you said that we could and should covertly return him to Lebanon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Israel wouldn't let us take him there, they are the ones with the power over that area.
    And

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We should just covertly dump him in Lebanon.

    Wrapped up neatly in one incoherent package.


    You have a problem with covertly deporting him to one place, and no problem with covertly deporting him to another place. And you yourself say that the reason that those two situations are different is because Israel is in control of one place and not the other.

    Seems rather straightforward to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  29. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    I'm guessing that between the four of you , you can collectively rub three brain cells together and decide what
    should be done with the man.




    :crickets:
    Way ahead of you:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Not imprison him forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  30. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Way ahead of you:
    ...for the 6th time, the question is not; What NOT to do with the man , it is what to do with him,
    kinda' complicated?

    oH yea, ...YOU'RE way ahead of me......


  31. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    In the exact same post, you said that we could and should covertly return him to Lebanon.




    And




    Wrapped up neatly in one incoherent package.


    You have a problem with covertly deporting him to one place, and no problem with covertly deporting him to another place. And you yourself say that the reason that those two situations are different is because Israel is in control of one place and not the other.

    Seems rather straightforward to me.
    And your point is?
    I never said we couldn't dump him any particular place, I suggested the place he is originally from because they are most responsible to take him and he has the most right to be there.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    ...for the 6th time, the question is not; What NOT to do with the man , it is what to do with him,
    kinda' complicated?

    oH yea, ...YOU'RE way ahead of me......

    He wants him released here.
    He wants all people who are so bad that nobody wants them to have a right to come and stay here.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    ...for the 6th time, the question is not; What NOT to do with the man , it is what to do with him,
    kinda' complicated?
    Doesn't seem complicated to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Way ahead of you:
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Not imprison him forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  34. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And your point is?
    That you jumped right into the bucket o' neocons that @RonZeplin described.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I never said we couldn't dump him any particular place, I suggested the place he is originally from because they are most responsible to take him and he has the most right to be there.
    Except not the actual place that he's from, because Israel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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